Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

[tekevil]

How exactly does Lords of the Wheel Allegiance Benefit work?

According to Gareth, when I asked him via PM, it works like Hide In Plain sight as long as you begin where no one can see you.

[tekevil]

Forcing the entire party to join one of our initiator-focused clubs to maintain parity is kind of disruptive too.

Not to mention any initiators whose concept calls for them to not be part of a tradition.

Better to keep the tradition benefits minor and flavourful so no one feels left out by not taking one. That or make them cost a trait or feat or something.

I agree with these points.

[Mezzaluna]

This has probably been brought up before, but I kinda feel like this needs to be addressed.

Mystic recovery can be a pain in the ass on virtual tabletops, and this is a shame, since it's probably my favorite of the PoW Expanded classes.
You can use a deck or rolled table function on Roll20, but you have to rely on your DM to set it up, and in "Living World" campaigns where you have multiple DMs, each with their own virtual tabletop setups for their own sessions, plus multiple players using the class, you have the problem of an otherwise good class potentially getting banned due to logistical issues. You can roll a die and go down your list of readied-but-not-granted maneuvers, but there will always be players who use that to cheat, and paranoid DMs who don't trust their players to not cheat.

The best alternative I could come up with is going through them in a predetermined order, set when your maneuvers are readied, and possibly making maneuver level a factor in it.

Make a google drive document or spreadsheet that arranges your maneuvers in an ordered list, with two columns to mark when they're granted or expended. Then publicly roll 1dX depending on how many ungranted maneuvers you have, and then count down the list from the top.
Set document permissions so anyone with the link can see, and make the link known to the GM, and also the other players if you want.

It's a process entirely managed by the player, but the GM can still keep an eye on it to make sure you're not cheating.

Personally, I'm enjoying the mystic's random recovery more than I thought, and it really changes how I choose maneuvers compared to other classes.
The main drawback to me is how most of your maneuvers are explicitly unusable out of combat - I know DSP is deliberately leaving the topic up to GM interpretation on whether maneuvers out of combat should be valid or not at all, but it's a bit of a downside that even in a campaign where it's usually allowed, the mystic still can't use more than two, and even then they need to allocate their 'always granted' two maneuvers between 'out of combat utility' and 'maneuvers I always want to be readied at the start of combat'.

[Lord_Gareth]

Forcing the entire party to join one of our initiator-focused clubs to maintain parity is kind of disruptive too.

Not to mention any initiators whose concept calls for them to not be part of a tradition.

Better to keep the tradition benefits minor and flavourful so no one feels left out by not taking one. That or make them cost a trait or feat or something.

Part of the reason they exist in this form - as an optional rule - is because of a fundamental disagreement about codes of conduct. The two sides can be expressed thusly:

"Codes of conduct are sufficient penalty to justify getting free stuff."

"What no, are you insane?"

Thus the optional, and the explict statement that it's optional, which is repeated like three times.

How exactly does Lords of the Wheel Allegiance Benefit work?

You stay hidden as long as you start hidden, even if you break cover/concealment etc.

[tekevil]

So would you prefer allegiance bonuses be all buffed to Cagebreaker level or that they be turned into bonuses like that of Order des Repas Exotiques?

Personally I believe that if they stay on different power levels it would lead to specific organizations being favored by players due to the comparative strengrh instead of narrative strength.

Gareth would you mind addressing this feedback?

Nobody in this conversation has mentioned disallowing benefits for balance reasons. What the feedback seems to be pointing at is that they find allegiance benefits to be very inconsistent. Do you want them all on the same power level or no?

[Lord_Gareth]

Gareth would you mind addressing this feedback?

Nobody in this conversation has mentioned disallowing benefits for balance reasons. What the feedback seems to be pointing at is that they find allegiance benefits to be very inconsistent. Do you want them all on the same power level or no?

I'm still chewing over the Cagebreaker one but in general I was aiming in the region of equating to about a feat. Several are actually based on feats, often from heritage systems (the Stained Glass Champions in particular). Nerfs and/or buffs are not off the table.

[tekevil]

Cagebreaker isn't the only outlier if the intended power level is close to a feat. When I get home I can give feedback on them.

Off of memory I'd say that one that removes reach weapon dead zones and lets you know the exact location of evil outsiders within 60 ft of you.

[Ssalarn]

Cagebreaker isn't the only outlier if the intended power level is close to a feat. When I get home I can give feedback on them.

Off of memory I'd say that one that removes reach weapon dead zones and lets you know the exact location of evil outsiders within 60 ft of you.

Reverents of the Lance, I believe. There does seem to be a bit of a gap between something like Reverents and something like the Sultanate as far as value.

[Captain Morgan]

This has probably been brought up before, but I kinda feel like this needs to be addressed.

Mystic recovery can be a pain in the ass on virtual tabletops, and this is a shame, since it's probably my favorite of the PoW Expanded classes.
You can use a deck or rolled table function on Roll20, but you have to rely on your DM to set it up, and in "Living World" campaigns where you have multiple DMs, each with their own virtual tabletop setups for their own sessions, plus multiple players using the class, you have the problem of an otherwise good class potentially getting banned due to logistical issues. You can roll a die and go down your list of readied-but-not-granted maneuvers, but there will always be players who use that to cheat, and paranoid DMs who don't trust their players to not cheat.

The best alternative I could come up with is going through them in a predetermined order, set when your maneuvers are readied, and possibly making maneuver level a factor in it.

Man, where do you guys find these online games that allow Path of War? It seems like such a specific niche, but I'd love to get plugged into it.

[Lord_Gareth]

Some proposed changes to Knight-Chandler.

Props to Forrest for proposing & writing these. Knight-Chandler had been written with the old Mystic in mind; when Mystic changed, Chandler got left behind, and the proposed additions to catch her back up are currently highlighted in red.

[Powerdork]

Some proposed changes to Knight-Chandler.

Props to Forrest for proposing & writing these. Knight-Chandler had been written with the old Mystic in mind; when Mystic changed, Chandler got left behind, and the proposed additions to catch her back up are currently highlighted in red.

The patches to knight-chandler fill us with determination. Everyone's hopes burn bright.



I'd just like to add, reading the thread...

Forcing the entire party to join one of our initiator-focused clubs to maintain parity is kind of disruptive too.

You're coming at this from a "this option introduced in this book is meant only for people who use other content from this book" angle, when traditions work entirely fine with the initiation content stripped AND come with the oath with which the allegiance benefit is an incentive for acting in line.

[tekevil]

Hence why it's even more important that each Allegiance benefit is worth roughly the same amount. That way the most important factor is which organization is most fun for the player, not which organization grants the best benefit.

Also a lot of the really good benefits don't go away if you break oath. Additionally there is no correlation between Oath difficulty and Allegiance Benefit. One of the easiest oaths grants one of the top three benefits.

[MilleniaAntares]

Some proposed changes to Knight-Chandler.

Props to Forrest for proposing & writing these. Knight-Chandler had been written with the old Mystic in mind; when Mystic changed, Chandler got left behind, and the proposed additions to catch her back up are currently highlighted in red.

In the /pfg/ thread on 4chan, what do you mean by cameos?

And those changes look good, though personally I would like it if the 9th level ability could also be used on a nearby ally.

[Sayt]

I've been having some Thinky Thoughts.

Say I'm a Bushi Warlord with Mithral Current Slice, and I'm in the style stance, and have Molten Silver Strike, and I'm in a Mithral Current stance and I initiate Quicksilver Wave to bop someone with my Mithral Katana, and I pop Dual Boost for Regal Blade and Aurora Break.

Does the insight bonus to damage from Royal Blade get the 1.5x multiplication? Does the fire damage from Aurora Break?

[MilleniaAntares]

If an enemy has a vulnerability to a weapon-based quality - like silver - then the 1.5x multiplier applies to the damage that is attributable to the weapon itself.

This typically means weapon damage + strength/dexterity bonus to damage + enhancement bonus + any sort of flat bonus that does not come from maneuvers (such as Power Attack).

Maneuver damage is - besides maybe elemental damage on someone with elemental vulnerability - never multiplied, but tacked on after the above.

[Eox]

If that was the way it worked, then only weapon damage would overcome DR. The vulnerability modifier applies to the whole attack.

[Lord_Gareth]

In the /pfg/ thread on 4chan, what do you mean by cameos?

And those changes look good, though personally I would like it if the 9th level ability could also be used on a nearby ally.

Chris has been in a bad way for awhile and is in danger of losing his home and his employment. To help him out, DSP's supporting his gofundme by offering rewards for donations. Some of those - all of them already claimed - are character cameos in my fic.

[Captain Morgan]

So why does Mirror of the Moon only apply to Veiled Moon maneuvers? Shattered Mirror gets plenty of teleportation maneuvers too. Also, if someone has that feat and uses a maneuver like Flicker Strike that involves teleporting more than once, do they leave a Major Image behind each time they port?

Thinking about working the feat into my build, but it would require reworking it to go heavier into Veiled Moon, which is annoying with Dark Focus.

[Gün]

So why does Mirror of the Moon only apply to Veiled Moon maneuvers? Shattered Mirror gets plenty of teleportation maneuvers too. Also, if someone has that feat and uses a maneuver like Flicker Strike that involves teleporting more than once, do they leave a Major Image behind each time they port?

Thinking about working the feat into my build, but it would require reworking it to go heavier into Veiled Moon, which is annoying with Dark Focus.

And it could be awesome if it works with Eternal Guardian maneuvers too.

[EldritchWeaver]

Looking over the Knight-Chandler I noticed this line:

Unlike other supernatural abilities, a knight-chandler’s candle is not completely suppressed when it or the knight-chandler is within an antimagic field or similar effect.

This line and the following paragraph muddle the line of what an antimagic field does. This is quite a complication for little benefit (consider the illumination alone - it is easier to deal with its absence than a reduction of reach). I'd prefer if the soul candle does simply vanish and reappears in a similar distance and random location like for the teleport.

[Captain Morgan]

And it could be awesome if it works with Eternal Guardian maneuvers too.

Oh, sure, there are all sorts of things it would be swell if they worked with it here. Shattered Mirror just sticks out because it's a a prerequisite for the feat, that happens to have several teleportation maneuvers with unique advantages over their Veiled Moon counterparts.

So, some rules question. If I have the Mirror of the Moon feat, have two mirror images up from Infinity Mirror Stance, and activate Flicker strike to port in, attack, and port out:

A) Do I leave Major Images twice? Once from each spot I teleport from?
B) Does each Major Image include 3 versions of myself, to replicate the Infinity Mirror Stance?
C) Can each of those versions of myself be directed to move independently for the round to further disorient my opponent and (hopefully) cause them to waste attacks?
D) Do these Major Images allow any sort of save? If they act as though directed, and the enemy attacks one, how would the enemy realize they are all fake and it wasn't surrounded on all sides?

Assuming the answer to A,B, and C are yes, it becomes very easy to flood the battle field with images, which is awesome. I could see an argument that the feat triggers when you INITIATE the maneuver, not when you teleport though. I am curious how all this would interact with Reflected Blade Style to further increase the image flood.

Take this scenario. I have the Mirror of the Moon feat, have two mirror images up from Infinity Mirror Stance, activate Reflected Blade Style, and the Warp Worm maneuver.

A) Do I leave a Major Image up to 4 times, for the number of port stops I make?
B) Does each include multiple images from Infinity Mirror Stance?
C) Does Reflected Blade Style allow me to target 1 additional enemy for Warped Worm Damage, or does it allow me to start a new "chain" and hit up to 3?
D) If my initial targets for Warp Worm are enemies X,Y, and Z, can I use my Reflected Blade Style to target Z twice? (And if this triggers a new chain, can I hit X, Y, and Z twice each?)
E) Does the secondary strike from Reflected Blade Style create it's own Major Image(s)?

[Elricaltovilla]

Oh, sure, there are all sorts of things it would be swell if they worked with it here. Shattered Mirror just sticks out because it's a a prerequisite for the feat, that happens to have several teleportation maneuvers with unique advantages over their Veiled Moon counterparts.

So, some rules question. If I have the Mirror of the Moon feat, have two mirror images up from Infinity Mirror Stance, and activate Flicker strike to port in, attack, and port out:

A) Do I leave Major Images twice? Once from each spot I teleport from?
B) Does each Major Image include 3 versions of myself, to replicate the Infinity Mirror Stance?
C) Can each of those versions of myself be directed to move independently for the round to further disorient my opponent and (hopefully) cause them to waste attacks?
D) Do these Major Images allow any sort of save? If they act as though directed, and the enemy attacks one, how would the enemy realize they are all fake and it wasn't surrounded on all sides?

Assuming the answer to A,B, and C are yes, it becomes very easy to flood the battle field with images, which is awesome. I could see an argument that the feat triggers when you INITIATE the maneuver, not when you teleport though. I am curious how all this would interact with Reflected Blade Style to further increase the image flood.

Take this scenario. I have the Mirror of the Moon feat, have two mirror images up from Infinity Mirror Stance, activate Reflected Blade Style, and the Warp Worm maneuver.

A) Do I leave a Major Image up to 4 times, for the number of port stops I make?
B) Does each include multiple images from Infinity Mirror Stance?
C) Does Reflected Blade Style allow me to target 1 additional enemy for Warped Worm Damage, or does it allow me to start a new "chain" and hit up to 3?
D) If my initial targets for Warp Worm are enemies X,Y, and Z, can I use my Reflected Blade Style to target Z twice? (And if this triggers a new chain, can I hit X, Y, and Z twice each?)
E) Does the secondary strike from Reflected Blade Style create it's own Major Image(s)?

We're actually rewording the feat slightly anyway (my fault for using brackets). So thanks for the heads up and we'll get back to you with the updated wording and some clarifications.

[MilleniaAntares]

I think the Fiendbound Marauder would benefit if either Fiend's Grip or Canny Pugilist counted as Improved Unarmed Strike for the purpose of feat prerequisites. And also maybe access to Broken Blade.

If that was the way it worked, then only weapon damage would overcome DR. The vulnerability modifier applies to the whole attack.

Uh... no? Fire and the like ignore DR due to the rule differences between physical damage and energy damage and how they interact with DR and ER.

Either way, just because your weapon's damage is increased due to having the [silver] tag in its damage, doesn't mean the fire-based aspects will be empowered as well.

Similar to hitting someone with fire vulnerability with a +1 Flaming Weapon doesn't increase the entire damage by 50%, just the Flaming part.

That said, I'm basing my answer off one of the previous threads' clarification, but I'm not particularly inclined to search for it at this point in time.

[Eox]

Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you meant non-energy damage from maneuvers wouldn't gain the material tag.

edit: Although to be fair that would be cool as hell. Adamantine lightning, silver fire. Cold iron... Cold?

[Sayt]

I think the Fiendbound Marauder would benefit if either Fiend's Grip or Canny Pugilist counted as Improved Unarmed Strike for the purpose of feat prerequisites. And also maybe access to Broken Blade.


Uh... no? Fire and the like ignore DR due to the rule differences between physical damage and energy damage and how they interact with DR and ER.

Either way, just because your weapon's damage is increased due to having the [silver] tag in its damage, doesn't mean the fire-based aspects will be empowered as well.

Similar to hitting someone with fire vulnerability with a +1 Flaming Weapon doesn't increase the entire damage by 50%, just the Flaming part.

That said, I'm basing my answer off one of the previous threads' clarification, but I'm not particularly inclined to search for it at this point in time.

The thing with Flaming makes sense. Also, doesn't the Fiendbound Marauder already have Broken Blade, as part of the core Warder, or did that change in a revision?

[MilleniaAntares]

Oh, yes, you are correct, I misread the text for thr fiendbound marauder.

[Regalus]

Query: Does the healing gained from Silver Crane maneuvers count as Positive Energy (thus damaging undead and simila entities instead of healing them) or does it effectively generate 'untyped' healing?

[tekevil]

Question: the Omen Rider's mount can use the Omen Rider's boosts as long as they don't add damage die. How does this interact with boosts to gain extra attacks such as the Riven Hourglass and Thrashing Dragon boosts?

Also for a boost like pride movement how would that interact? Rider uses pride movement to move mount, mount uses pride movement to give another adjacent ally a move?

[Captain Morgan]

Question: the Omen Rider's mount can use the Omen Rider's boosts as long as they don't add damage die. How does this interact with boosts to gain extra attacks such as the Riven Hourglass and Thrashing Dragon boosts?

Also for a boost like pride movement how would that interact? Rider uses pride movement to move mount, mount uses pride movement to give another adjacent ally a move?

Is Omen Rider even going to be a thing? I thought I read it was being heavily modified if it was actually going to be released.

Another Harbi question: Massacre. If I hit an opponent with a "Strike and Fade" such as Fetch's Wrath, am I allowed to trigger Massacre after my teleport resolves, allowing me to potentially port over to a new enemy to strike? Because that would be awesome. Usually Immediate Actions interrupt normal turn flow, which makes me lean towards this trick not working. But I don't know that I can interrupt my own standard action anyway, and the teleport would probably resolve before the enemy's body can hit the floor...

I don't think it would be unbalancing for this trick to work. Massacre doesn't strike me as something that will crop up THAT often, because the Harbinger usually isn't focusing on damage, has a lot of competition for swift actions, and doesn't want to get surrounded by enemies. So a slight expansion of it's use seems fine. But I have yet to properly play test still, which makes me a sad panda.

[amberlink]

How soon out should the third part be if anyone has heard anything?