Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

[amberlink]

In addition to my previous unanswered questions...have another one from the first Path of War, what happens if you enter a prestige class through Martial Training? are you still limited to maneuver level of the highest feat? Or is it based on initiator level? Also, do prestige classes add half or full level to your initiator level for Martial Training?

[Thealtruistorc]

Out of curiosity, what other disciplines do you have planned for PoW? I'm particularly interested in seeing more extraordinary ones and others that involve more unusual weapons.

Here's what I have thought of:
A grappling discipline
A flail-based discipline with a lot of combat maneuvers (think Ivy from soul calibur)
A "drunken master"-esque style, maybe countering other martial initiators
A mobile archery discipline based on trick shots
A discipline dedicated to using only a single attack
A discipline that is based around technological equipment and getting the most out of it.

[Tuvarkz]

Out of curiosity, what other disciplines do you have planned for PoW? I'm particularly interested in seeing more extraordinary ones and others that involve more unusual weapons.

Here's what I have thought of:
A grappling discipline
A flail-based discipline with a lot of combat maneuvers (think Ivy from soul calibur)
A "drunken master"-esque style, maybe countering other martial initiators
A mobile archery discipline based on trick shots
A discipline dedicated to using only a single attack
A discipline that is based around technological equipment and getting the most out of it.

Grappling: Broken Blade already does this with quite a lot of stuff, and is likely the most suited for it.
Combat Maneuvers: BB maneuvers now work with any weapon, unless the maneuver explicitly states otherwise.
Mobile Archery+Trick Shots: This one is clearly tempest gale
Single Attack: Look at Scarlet Throne's Rising Zenith line
Tech Equipment: Wouldn't really feel like a martial discipline imho, but something more akin to Alchemist extracts?

[Dusk Eclipse]

'We already have one from your list, Tempest Gale (check the playtest) is the trick shot focused discipline.

[Kaidinah]

I want to see minimal, if any, new martial disciplines in the future releases. Besides one or 2 concepts, it is easy to cover most things a player could want with the abundance of disciplines currently released or being released in PoW: E.

[ANSeranov]

Broken Blade has like 3 maneuvers/stances that use/take advantage of grappling. Steel Serpent has a handful, too. It's not really a well-supported option in PoW (outside of the Fiendbound Marauder) and it's probably because grappling is kind of a cluster****.

[Vhaidara]

Tempest Gale question: Does Disarming Shot do damage? The short description says yes, but the long just says that you make a ranged disarm attempt, which wouldn't deal any damage

[Elricaltovilla]

Broken Blade has like 3 maneuvers/stances that use/take advantage of grappling. Steel Serpent has a handful, too. It's not really a well-supported option in PoW (outside of the Fiendbound Marauder) and it's probably because grappling is kind of a cluster****.

The best way to do a grappling discipline, if we were to do one, would honestly be to just ignore grappling itself and try to replicate its effects via maneuvers. The problem is that it then wouldn't synergize with anything that is actual grappling. But actual grappling is too much of a hassle to actually deal with.

Tempest Gale question: Does Disarming Shot do damage? The short description says yes, but the long just says that you make a ranged disarm attempt, which wouldn't deal any damage

Well, at this time it only disarms, no damage. I keep going back and forth on the issue though.

[ANSeranov]

The best way to do a grappling discipline, if we were to do one, would honestly be to just ignore grappling itself and try to replicate its effects via maneuvers. The problem is that it then wouldn't synergize with anything that is actual grappling. But actual grappling is too much of a hassle to actually deal with.

Yeah, pretty much. My intention on my Fiendbound Marauder is to use maneuvers and then use the grab on the Fiend's Grip to tack a free grapple check on top of it, then release the grapple at the beginning of the next turn, use another maneuver and repeat. It'll mostly just help weaken my target on their own turn... probably. I'm still trying to wrap my head around grappling as a whole.

[ICN]

It would be nice if Hunting Zephyr (in Tempest Gale) got a line explicitly forbidding it from working with the Vorpal special quality or similar effects, as otherwise combining them makes the strike a bit too good imo.

[Elricaltovilla]

It would be nice if Hunting Zephyr (in Tempest Gale) got a line explicitly forbidding it from working with the Vorpal special quality or similar effects, as otherwise combining them makes the strike a bit too good imo.

It'll be reworded in time for the full PDF.

[tekevil]

I noticed that there has been almost no feedback on the Martial Traditions to be included in Path of War: Expanded.

I decided to look into them and found that the lore and Oaths are all both cool and pretty reasonable.

The allegiance benefits though range from stuff like

Spoiler: some Allegiance benefits

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Cirque de la Fumée (Tempest Gale):In addition to access to the Tempest Gale discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), Harlequins of the Cirque de la Fumée do not provoke attacks of opportunity for making ranged attacks while threatened, provided the attack is made with a thrown weapon. Additionally, they benefit from a +2 insight bonus to Perform (Comedy), Sense Motive, and Sleight of Hand checks.

or
Sultanate of Beggars: In addition to access to the Broken Blade discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), Sultans of the Sultanate of Beggars do not suffer the attack penalties associated with using improvised weaponry, may treat improvised weapons as monk weapons for the purposes of class features and feats that interact with monk weapons, and enjoy a +4 anarchic bonus to CMD against bull rush attempts and grapples.

A Sultan who breaks his oath (such as by permitting slavery) loses his bonus to CMD, but not the bonuses associated with improvised weapons, until such a time as he atones by meditating for seven days and nights on the nature of his crime, or else by donating 100 gp per level (or equivalent service) to the poor and destitute. He may also find himself targeted for an educational beating by his fellow Sultans.

Which are fun and mostly harmless in terms of player power.

to

Spoiler: some more allegiance benefits

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Reverents of the Lance: In addition to access to the Piercing Thunder discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), Reverents of the Lance threaten adjacent creatures while using a weapon from the spear or polearm weapon groups that has reach. Furthermore, they are always aware of the exact position of any outsiders with the chaotic and/or evil subtypes within 60 ft. of themselves and may not be surprised by such beings (such outsiders still benefit from concealment, if they have it).

or

Cagebreakers: In addition to access to the Elemental Flux discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), Cagebreakers may channel part of Rumor’s unbridled chaotic spirit into a rebel yell. Once per encounter, as a swift action, the Cagebreaker lets out a wild cry; all allies (including the Cagebreaker) within sixty feet that can hear him gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls for a number of rounds equal to the Cagebreaker’s character level and may immediately roll new saving throws against any and all undesired mind-affecting spells or abilities affecting them (such as charm person or cause fear), provided the chosen abilities allow a saving throw.

Which are on par with some of the strongest feats available through Dreamscarred Press materials.

I know the allegiance benefits are optional, but I know the people at my table would prefer that each Tradition's allegiance benefit be roughly on par with one another. Supposing they were rewrote to all be similar power level would you prefer they all be buffed up to be powerhouses Cagebreaker or Reverent Lance level or would you prefer the benefits be focused on enhancing underused combat styles or fun/cool mechanics like Thrashing Dragon's allegiance benefit?

Pros and Cons as I see them of Traditions as I see them now

Pros:
-Do not cost a trait or a feat
-Give you a discipline that you want
-Give you an allegiance benefit
-Almost all the oaths are very easy to abide by (Hate and kill Demons? I was probably gonna do that anyway)
-Give you something fun to roleplay and helps guide your character backstory

Cons:
-If the DM chooses to he can use the organization to get you to do things
-You have an oath
-It may restrict some of your build options (Hard to be a Barbarian Black Thorn Knight)

In my eye, since the pros outweigh the cons and I don't believe players should have access to super feats for free at level one I would prefer to see allegiance benefits brought down in power level to be similar to the mentioned Traditions. I'd rather be able to tell players that this book is entirely legal instead of saying it's legal except for X, Y, and Z options.

[ANSeranov]

I absolutely adore the Steel Serpent order (Ordre des Repas Exotiques) for both its bonus (immunity to poison and disease from food/drink, +2 on all knowledge checks to identify creatures AND those checks can be made untrained) and the fact that the entire order is notorious because sentient creatures are terrified that its members will legit eat them. They'll cook them first!

Members also make for a fantastic party chef.

[tekevil]

I actually almost used the Steel Serpent Tradition as an example of a tradition with an appropriate allegiance bonus. I quite like them too :)

[MilleniaAntares]

Broken Blade has like 3 maneuvers/stances that use/take advantage of grappling. Steel Serpent has a handful, too. It's not really a well-supported option in PoW (outside of the Fiendbound Marauder) and it's probably because grappling is kind of a cluster****.

Grappling is perfectly well supported, as you only need to get Greater Grapple and its prerequisites.

Once you use your initial standard action to grapple a creature (and succeed), afterwards you can use a move action to maintain your grapple (and move/harm/pin as normal), and then use a standard action and a swift to use maneuvers while grappling.

Even better, if you're in Steel Coils stance, you'll end up doing 4d6+strength damage as a move action, which means you can do it twice per turn and really put the hurt on the poor person in your grip.

In addition, a steelfist commando with Steel Grappler's Attitude, Gladiator Presence, and Grappler Gambit adds their charisma mod three times (untyped, morale, luck) to their CMB, and twice (untyped, morale) to their CMD.

At this point, I don't think a grappler discipline is really needed, as both Broken Blade and Steel Serpent support it quite well, and other disciplines may provide ancillary benefits through strikes and boosts.

Is there anything in particular you think the current disciplines are missing?

[NamelessNPC]

Hey, I have some questions that are kind of all over the place, maybe you can help me:

1- when using the Iron Tortoise line of counters that let you make an attack roll to "block" an attack, such as Iron Shell or Defensive Shell, do you add the STR bonus to the roll, or is it just 1d20+shield bonus?

2- In the 2nd level Sleeping goddess boost Reactive Reversion there's this line "You may instead teleport back to the marked space as a free action, even if it is not your turn, any time during the next round". What does "instead" mean in this context?

3- Shouldn't the sleeping goddess style feats be psionic feats?

4- And now for a different thing altogether. Is this passed the point where playtest feedback would help? I'm currently playing a pathwalker 4 going for awakened blade, using mainly sleeping goddess maneuvers, and another one of the players has a monk 1/stalker 3 focused in shattered mirror. Would you like some feedback?

[Sayt]

Hey, I have some questions that are kind of all over the place, maybe you can help me:

1- when using the Iron Tortoise line of counters that let you make an attack roll to "block" an attack, such as Iron Shell or Defensive Shell, do you add the STR bonus to the roll, or is it just 1d20+shield bonus?

Iron Shell specifically mentions making a Shield Bash plus shield AC, which means you may add your Strength (or Dex, if you have finesse and a light shield, IIRC, anyway) modifier to the check. Steel and Adamantine shell explicitly call for "an opposed attack roll using Base Attack Bonus plus shield bonus.", which indicates to me that you don't get your strength modifier. That said, I'd bring this up in the FAQ thread.

[M3mentoMori]

Does Shadow Pin (a 5th level Cursed Razor Counter) negate/suppress/dispel magical flying when it causes someone to fall?

Also, has there been any word on what's happening with the update of the Harbinger?

I apologize if these have been asked before.

[MilleniaAntares]

Harbinger has been released, so its doc will no longer be updated. Go buy it!

[Captain Morgan]

It's been released , but there is at least 1 change confirmed between the version available to purchase since April and the version coming out in PoW:E.

[amberlink]

It's been released , but there is at least 1 change confirmed between the version available to purchase since April and the version coming out in PoW:E.

What change is that?

[tekevil]

My guess is that it's something that every review I read had in common independently of eachother.

That one class feature that turns Harbingers into ranged characters around level 12.

[MilleniaAntares]

Tenebrous Reach?

[tekevil]

Yeah, that's the one. Tenebrous Reach.

[Captain Morgan]

Yeah, that's the one. Tenebrous Reach.

Yup, that's the one. I don't think there are other big changes but I wouldn't be surprised if some maneuvers got tweaked.

[tekevil]

Personally I'd just like to see Harbie get a little less bonuses to saves.

[Lord_Gareth]

Personally I'd just like to see Harbie get a little less bonuses to saves.

Brosef their bonuses to saves are entirely gone.

[tekevil]

Meant DCs, my bad on that slip

[Captain Morgan]

Meant DCs, my bad on that slip

Harbinger also needs to land an attack roll, be flanking, and be in one of it's weakest stances for all that to be true. The chance of missing the swing, or soaking a hit because you're up close and don't have Infinity Mirror Stance active, seems balanced with a 15-30% increase in your save DCs.

A wizard can drop SoD from a hundred feet away, while maintaining flight, greater invisibility, mirror image, or whatever combination of buffs they desire. They also usually have more options at their disposal than single target save spells. Crowd control spells, walls, summons, and so on. If a boss monster has high enough saves the Harbinger won't be doing well despite his DC boosts, where wizards can avoid targeting saves at all.

(I guess wizards do have spell resistance to deal with sometimes.)

[CGNefarious]

There was also a proposed change to the Crimson Countess' 15th level Blood Pool, allowing them to turn into a mist instead of just gaining fast healing.