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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    I agree it's a good point, which is why I was going to let it stand. But I read it as "Play a Warder like a Harbinger (which should dump INT)" it was obviously not what was intended though, but that was the first way my brain parsed that information and it was amusing.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Do people dump int on Warders? I've never ran lower than a 14 on mine.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by tekevil View Post
    Do people dump int on Warders? I've never ran lower than a 14 on mine.
    You definitely should not dump INT on a Warder. It's less of a priority on a Warder than it is on other Initiators, but even then I'd still recommend Attack Stat > CON = INT > Other Stats. Obviously not the case if you're an Ordained Defender Warder.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by tekevil View Post
    Do people dump int on Warders? I've never ran lower than a 14 on mine.
    I generally don't. On a 20 point buy, I'll usually do a 16 in Strength and a 16 in Intelligence before racial modifiers (unless one of the racial modifiers is a penalty to CON). I've even done a 14 STR, 14 DEX, 16 INT build very successfully; the benefits of full BAB + martial initiating are not to be underestimated, and I've never felt the need to shove a 20 into my attack stat the way I often do with Fighters or some other non-initiators, though after that I do prioritize boosting my physical stats over my Int (not neglecting Int, just things like buying a belt before I buy a headband).
    Last edited by Ssalarn; 2015-11-03 at 03:40 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Spoiler: 15 Point Buy (before racials)
    Show

    STR: 16
    DEX: 10
    CON: 12
    INT: 14
    WIS: 10
    CHA: 8


    Spoiler: 20 Point Buy (before racials)
    Show

    STR: 16
    DEX: 10
    CON: 12
    INT: 16
    WIS: 10
    CHA: 8

    STR: 16
    DEX: 10
    CON: 14
    INT: 14
    WIS: 10
    CHA: 10


    Spoiler: 25 Point Buy (before racials)
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    STR: 16
    DEX: 10
    CON: 12
    INT: 16
    WIS: 12
    CHA: 8



    These are the spreads I usually use for most Warders.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    In general, for initiating classes I bring the initiation ability score up to 14 or 16. If its a Harbi, 18 is not out of the question.

    There are a few archetypes I am undecided on when it comes to initiation ability score, since they retain their casting/manifesting. Nightmare most of all, since it actually uses that charisma for its power save DCs. I would have to use a 16 at minimum, but I don't know if the Nightmare would need higher. I might just have to roll one next time my group wants to run a one-shot and try that out.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    For my Harbinger, I'm going:

    STR 15
    DEX 14
    CON 14
    INT 15 (17 post racial)
    WIS 10
    CHA 7

    But I'm only getting away with that because he's starting at level 8, and I can use the +1 level adjustment to boost STR and INT up to 16 and 18, respectively. It's also a little harder to justify dumping DEX or CON on the Harbi, since it has a smaller hit dice and lighter armor.

    I agree it's a good point, which is why I was going to let it stand. But I read it as "Play a Warder like a Harbinger (which should dump INT)" it was obviously not what was intended though, but that was the first way my brain parsed that information and it was amusing.
    Yeah, I originally had another clause which probably would have clarified my sentence structure, but I removed it because it also really harped on how badly optimized the character from that thread was. Kinda felt like there had been plenty of that already from the thread in question.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by angelpalm View Post
    One of us is clearly stating that they believe you can't qualify for item creation feats without the mystic artifice class feature while the other quoted directly from the mystics doc showing how it gets a caster level from an entirely different class feature. How are we in agreement?

    Nvm.....I already got my answer from an actual dev, just don't like people spreading miss information because it just makes my job as a DM that much more difficult.
    Just wanted to pop in here again to apologize for my misreading. I had thought Mystic Artiface was the feature that gave Mystic their caster level and I was wrong. Sorry for the confusion spread!

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    If Tenebrous Reach is due for a nerf, why not nerf it to only work against a particular claimed creature? Could still be useful, but not as useful as it is now.

    Also, a harbinger dumping intelligence is rather hilarious, even if you do want to optimize damage while still having mediocre DCs.
    Last edited by MilleniaAntares; 2015-11-03 at 10:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    It's less that it needs a nerf and more that it is contrary to the previous 12 levels of Harbinger and completely transforms your tactics into that of a safe and stationary "archer."

    For 12 levels you are a skirmisher, then suddenly at 13 you become a ranged combatant.

    Edit: Due to how point buy works and that one Harbinger class feature dumping int will only lower your DPR if my math is right. At some point that half int mod to atk and full int to damage more than makes up for a few extra strength purchases. A Harby with 18 str and 14 Int is +5 to hit compared to a harby with 18 int and 14 str being +4 to hit. Small damage per hit trade off, but recovering 4 maneuvers whenever a claimed target dies is pretty sweet when you claim 3 dudes at once. I can't think of a reason to start a Harbinger with anything less than a 16 int, but always pushing for an 18.
    Last edited by tekevil; 2015-11-04 at 12:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by tekevil View Post
    Just wondering, have you ever actually opened the Occult Adventures release or are you just relying on the first impressions made by an angry 4channer who compared an unoptimized Kineticist to an expert archer?

    If the criticisms come from, at the very least, informed theorycrafting I could understand. But if you've never even cracked open the cover then it really is just uninformed and unproffessional to say things like that.

    Not only that, but the us vs them mentality you have shows that if a 3pp makes it big and gets hired by Paizo that they will get nothing but scorn from you. Kind of sad to turn on your brother's in arms like that.

    Edit:Guess you read it since the last time we talked then. Also curious about Psybombs numbers since I found the Kineticist to have the same DPR as my fully buffed Bard archer.
    I'd actually be curious to see the build you're using. I disproved the "Expert with a Bow" meme internally, but couldn't get them up to anything I'd be willing to call competent. For reference on a striker, this means being able to 2-round CR-appropriate foes on average damage, after accounting for both crit and miss.

    Yes, I've spent time trying to do so since they got onto the SRD. We don't make untested claims around these parts, not when it's that major. As for "us versus them", that's mostly false as well. As Elric said, we're all fans of the game and are working to make it better.
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  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    For all of my personal disparagement of Paizo, even I will say that DSP is generally speaking quite respectful of the Paizo writers, although they won't pretend that foolish design decisions aren't bad if they really do believe that they are foolish. Just looking at these threads, one of the primary and most popular DSP threads on the board, they have had like 10 posts over 7 threads that are actually critical of the normal Pathfinder rule set. In those cases, a lot of the community seems to agree that it is not unreasonable for them to say that Paizo didn't really fix the martial caster disparity.
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    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Are there ways to get additional swift actions in pathfinder? I just noticed that the Stalker Art "Phantom Reach" would make more mithral current maneuvers eligible for the Molten Silver Strike feat, but the action economy is getting in the way.
    Last edited by DarkSonic1337; 2015-11-05 at 12:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSonic1337 View Post
    Are there ways to get additional swift actions in pathfinder? I just noticed that the Stalker Art "Phantom Reach" would make more mithral current maneuvers eligible for the Molten Silver Strike feat, but the action economy is getting in the way.
    The Belt of Delicate Moves (Melee Tactics Toolbox) lets you 1/day expend a move action to gain a swift action.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    If you had a source of bonus standard actions (say a 3.pf game) could you

    1. Ready an action to use a solar wind boost when you initiate your next mithral current strike
    2. Activate Phantom Reach
    3. Initiate Mithral Current Strike (triggering readied action).

    ???

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSonic1337 View Post
    If you had a source of bonus standard actions (say a 3.pf game) could you

    1. Ready an action to use a solar wind boost when you initiate your next mithral current strike
    2. Activate Phantom Reach
    3. Initiate Mithral Current Strike (triggering readied action).

    ???
    The 8th level Riven Hourglass stance grants you an extra standard action every round.

  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSonic1337 View Post
    Are there ways to get additional swift actions in pathfinder? I just noticed that the Stalker Art "Phantom Reach" would make more mithral current maneuvers eligible for the Molten Silver Strike feat, but the action economy is getting in the way.
    That's actually one of the points of feedback I gave on the Stalker in hopes it's addressed in the eventual errata.

  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by tekevil View Post
    That's actually one of the points of feedback I gave on the Stalker in hopes it's addressed in the eventual errata.
    Main comparison point is that many of Stalker's ki point using arts are swift actions while the mystic enjoys animus as a free action. Considering Mystic can also spend animus points to extend its range too.

    Though a few threads back I am pretty sure ErrantX already addressed this. I think he said that the feedback was noted, and that it will be reviewed when the errata happens. So I am pretty sure we've been heard.
    Last edited by Kaidinah; 2015-11-05 at 03:59 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Would making Phantom Reach a free action to activate be overpowered (something like "as part of initiating the strike")? Using it multiple times per round would be a very rare occurrence (you could use it on dual strike or if you grabbed another standard action from somewhere), so the main issue would be allowing you to use Phantom Reach and a boost on the same strike.

    stalker'd


    On a similar note, should a Harbringer's Teneberous Reach allow strikes to qualify for molten silver strike? By strict raw I'd say no because it does not change the range of the strikes, but rather changes your melee reach (so close Q_Q). I'm really just trying to get more maneuvers to use the feat with (by default it only works on the 3 "wave" maneuvers).
    Last edited by DarkSonic1337; 2015-11-05 at 04:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    The full set of feedback I gave was

    Some things I'm uncomfortable with on the Stalker are as follows and most of them could be changed without a full class rewrite.

    - In Path of War one, only once class has access to Hide In Plain Sight, and that's the War Soul. It should be a Stalker Art since Stalker's are billed as the premier stealthy guy.

    -Mind Bending and Obfusication Stalker Arts becoming less and less useful as the campaign goes on. It wouldn't be harmful to game mechanics whatsoever for the DC to be 10+1/2 Stalker Level+wis and maybe the ability to spend additional ki to increase the DC.

    -Improved Blending comes online way too late. By this point similar classes have the vastly superior hide in plain sight ability or invisibility while Stalker gets a permanent 1st level spell that usually has a long duration when casted anyway.

    -Phantom Reach already costs a valuable and scarce Ki point, it shouldn't additionally cost a swift action.

    -Alacrity's active ability shouldn't take a swift action for the same reason as above.

    .

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    On one hand, the Swift action to spend Ki is a legacy of the monk, which also has to spend a swift to use it's ki for most of the class abilities, so I understand why it costs a swift action.

    On the other hand, there are two counterpoints which occur to me: Monk's are bad. Monk's also don't have any competition on their swift actions, unlike Stalkers who have access to Ki Powers, Boosts, counters, and the native abilities granted by the Ki Pool. (Warlord also has this a little with Gambits+Dual Boost)

    All in all, I more-or-less agree with Tekevil's points in his most recent post.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    I don't believe Gambits are a good comparison point in terms of action economy because

    1. One is a class feature that gets back maneuvers and all of those features have an action cost.
    2. Ki points are highly limited, while Gambits can be used at any point.
    3. Gambits are performed to get a reward while Ki is spent to gain access to a feature.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    I'm not saying the Warlord has it worse, I think the Stalker definitely does.

    But Gambits are fairly powerful buffs, as well as a recovery method. Warlords also want to use their Swifts on Boosts (Because Dual Boost), Swift Aid (Because of Tactical Assistance) and at high levels, Master Warleader.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaidinah View Post
    My thoughts on the matter are that currently, not all allegiance benefits are created equal. In some cases, this is very okay, since being a Quill is pretty hard, so getting a +2 will save is pretty nice compared to other tradition's situational save bonuses.

    Order des Repas Exotiques, Order of the Arrows, or the Sultanate of Beggars have probably the best kind of allegiance benfit though. They give you a lot (Especially the Sultanate), but that "a lot" is just a lot of cool stuff, or stuff that buffs a bad weapon group to decent or good (Sultanate does this). Cirque makes thrown weapons not as suck as much, without wasting a feat. Lens Makers buff up sleight of hand and sword canes.

    Cagebreakers on the other hand feels stronger than a majority of boosts. It grants a very strong reroll effect, and a decently long lasting typless bonus to attack rolls. The reroll feels significantly stronger than most allegiance benefits. Reverents of the Lance take one of the strongest combat styles in the game, and buffs it up while also granting great benefits against chaotic and/or evil outsiders (So even Azata, and such).
    So would you prefer allegiance bonuses be all buffed to Cagebreaker level or that they be turned into bonuses like that of Order des Repas Exotiques?

    Personally I believe that if they stay on different power levels it would lead to specific organizations being favored by players due to the comparative strengrh instead of narrative strength.
    Last edited by tekevil; 2015-11-07 at 04:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by tekevil View Post
    So would you prefer allegiance bonuses be all buffed to Cagebreaker level or that they be turned into bonuses like that of Order des Repas Exotiques?

    Personally I believe that if they stay on different power levels it would lead to specific organizations being favored by players due to the comparative strengrh instead of narrative strength.
    I think they should be more equal when it comes to power. I have no preference for which direction the power should swing though.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by tekevil View Post
    So would you prefer allegiance bonuses be all buffed to Cagebreaker level or that they be turned into bonuses like that of Order des Repas Exotiques?

    Personally I believe that if they stay on different power levels it would lead to specific organizations being favored by players due to the comparative strengrh instead of narrative strength.
    I'd prefer to see them skewed towards the lower end. It makes it less objectionable to use them in games with non-initiator characters in the party.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tome View Post
    I'd prefer to see them skewed towards the lower end. It makes it less objectionable to use them in games with non-initiator characters in the party.
    Something to keep in mind is that there's nothing stopping non-initiators from joining a martial tradition - the only benefit that initiators uniquely get from it is the ability to trade out a discipline, any other class can get the other benefits.

    That said, I don't have a preference for higher or lower end, but making them more even is probably a good idea.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mezzaluna View Post
    Something to keep in mind is that there's nothing stopping non-initiators from joining a martial tradition - the only benefit that initiators uniquely get from it is the ability to trade out a discipline, any other class can get the other benefits.
    Forcing the entire party to join one of our initiator-focused clubs to maintain parity is kind of disruptive too.

    Not to mention any initiators whose concept calls for them to not be part of a tradition.

    Better to keep the tradition benefits minor and flavourful so no one feels left out by not taking one. That or make them cost a trait or feat or something.
    Last edited by Tome; 2015-11-07 at 02:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    This has probably been brought up before, but I kinda feel like this needs to be addressed.

    Mystic recovery can be a pain in the ass on virtual tabletops, and this is a shame, since it's probably my favorite of the PoW Expanded classes.
    You can use a deck or rolled table function on Roll20, but you have to rely on your DM to set it up, and in "Living World" campaigns where you have multiple DMs, each with their own virtual tabletop setups for their own sessions, plus multiple players using the class, you have the problem of an otherwise good class potentially getting banned due to logistical issues. You can roll a die and go down your list of readied-but-not-granted maneuvers, but there will always be players who use that to cheat, and paranoid DMs who don't trust their players to not cheat.

    The best alternative I could come up with is going through them in a predetermined order, set when your maneuvers are readied, and possibly making maneuver level a factor in it.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

    How exactly does Lords of the Wheel Allegiance Benefit work?

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