Ménage à 3 V: YAOI SENSE TINGLING

[JadedDM]

That was far from clear. I personally thought that Angel was a man who'd just put on a padded bra.

What was unclear about her specifically saying she was genderfluid, verbatim?

[Kato]

Hm... yeah, the first bit I'd say I took as him being a male but using the ladies room and the kiss with Jerzy... I guess it should have been more obvious.

sidenote: Will Didi jump in the ring and beat up Roxxy? Ten bucks say so.

[Olinser]

What was unclear about her specifically saying she was genderfluid, verbatim?

Which has what to do with whether Angel is a male or female? Oh right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Regardless of what term you use, Angel biologically is either male or female. The impression of most people was that Angel was male that was bisexual and cross dressed. 'Gender fluid' certainly doesn't refute that.

[JadedDM]

Which has what to do with whether Angel is a male or female? Oh right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Regardless of what term you use, Angel biologically is either male or female. The impression of most people was that Angel was male that was bisexual and cross dressed. 'Gender fluid' certainly doesn't refute that.

Genderfluid means one who shifts between genders, and isn't locked into one or the other. In other words, Angel is male or female, depending. Sometimes Angel identifies as male, sometimes as female.

And why would 'most people' think Angel was a cismale crossdresser, when Angel outright claimed to be genderfluid in the comic I linked? I'm confused.

EDIT: Also, what's up with the hostility there?

[Discus-Spinner]

The fact that Angel is anatomically female was kind of nailed down when Ruby yelled "YOU'RE A GIRL!", and Angel winced a little and then spent a couple of strips' worth of conversation politely clarifying the details for Ruby. I assumed that everybody had read those strips by now.

Before that, most people in the comic who hadn't known Angel previously assumed that he was male with a taste for nigh-crossdressing camp style, because that's how he'd been presenting whenever we saw him. A lot of readers were fooled too.

And nobody here, and nobody who knows in-comic, denies that Angel is gender-fluid, or thinks that she/he shouldn't be. The fact that Angel is biologically/anatomically female is a relevant detail, though, partly because it obliges her to do something to flatten or disguise her bust when presenting as male, as seen in these latest strips, but mostly because of how Jerzy (who's apparently known Angel since childhood) feels about it.

Yes, Jerzy is clearly bisexual by any sane definition. He's not only had (enthusiastic) sex with both Zii and Dillon, he seems to be attracted to both Angel's male and female personas. However, he insisted to Dillon that he transitioned from bisexual to entirely gay. Trouble is, he's clearly fooling himself. He hinted at least once that he wasn't attracted to Angel because he sees Angel as female (understandable, given that friendship going so far back), but then they wound up in bed together anyway. And the denial is messing up his head.

[Glass Mouse]

Yes, Jerzy is clearly bisexual by any sane definition. He's not only had (enthusiastic) sex with both Zii and Dillon, he seems to be attracted to both Angel's male and female personas. However, he insisted to Dillon that he transitioned from bisexual to entirely gay. Trouble is, he's clearly fooling himself. He hinted at least once that he wasn't attracted to Angel because he sees Angel as female (understandable, given that friendship going so far back), but then they wound up in bed together anyway. And the denial is messing up his head.

Most people exist on a spectrum. Just like asexual people can span from "sex feels super nice but I don't ever feel a particular need to grab any specific person and get it on" to "ewwww sex!", people's attractions to different genders can span. Dillon certainly seems on the "eww, gross!" side of things when it comes to sex with women (or at the very least incapable of making it work), whereas Jerzy has managed to get it up.

I've known gay people who had sex with people of the gender they were "supposed" to, and it was perfectly okay and tolerable, and then they slept with someone of their own gender, and it was MINDBLOWING. Those people are still gay, and might be the majority. I figure if you're actively repulsed, it's a lot easier to figure out your sexuality much earlier.

You see straight people engage in same-sex, uh, sex all the time as well. That's why we made the word "situational homosexuality". If it's all there is, and sex feels good, and you're not actively repulsed, eh, sure, why not. Touch is touch, and it's better than nothing. Gay people can engage in the same "eh, whatever" in regards to another gender.

Of course a lot of people exist in the gray area. "Bi" spans a wide spectrum of experiences, and a lot of it comes down to where we put the borders. Let's look at our old friend the Kinsey scale.

How do we define "gay" here? Is it only people who are at 6? What about bi? Only people who are at 3? But then 4-6 would be gay.

Point being, no matter which scale we look at (and let's be real, the Kinsey scale is extremely simplistic in the first place), there's a lot of fuzziness.

So no, Jerzy is not bi "by any sane definition". He's bi by a somewhat narrow definition of homosexuality. Genderfluid people are in relationships with monosexual people all the time without anyone having to redefine themselves. Jerzy may very well shift his choice of identifier. Or he might continue to prefer male Angel, date only the boy side, and have gay sex with Angel.

It's a non-standard definition of gender and homosexuality, but the entire queer movement (including genderfluid individuals) is working hard to redefine a lot of those things anyway. Either way, I wouldn't mistrust Jerzy's gayness just yet.

[SaintRidley]

What glass mouse said. Also, Olinser, you seem to be completely missing the fact that by being genderfluid that makes all the difference.

That's actually a pretty good drawing of a scorpion crosslock. Also, Didi should be kept far away from professional wrestling until she understands the concept of kayfabe.

[Discus-Spinner]

So no, Jerzy is not bi "by any sane definition". He's bi by a somewhat narrow definition of homosexuality.

But he's not just had heterosexual sex out of situational desperation, or because he was confused by a conservative upbringing; he had sex with Zii, at his own instigation (according to her), quite recently, and for emotional reasons that he can still describe passionately enough to bring a tear to Erik's eye. And even while he was trying to describe himself as gay, he admitted to a bisexual "phase". If a character described himself as straight, but admitted to a bisexual "phase" which turned out to have included relatively recent, enthusiastic gay sex which he himself instigated, I rather doubt that many people here would be saying that yes, he was indeed entirely straight.

I get it that boundaries are fuzzy and a few experiences don't define anyone for life, but Jerzy's insistence that he's entirely gay looks much more like denial than self-knowledge to me.

More to the point, I'll bet that when Dillon notices those bindings, he's going to conclude that he's been let down by another closet bisexual...

[Kato]

*mumblemumblecanwenothavethisdiscussionmumble*

That's actually a pretty good drawing of a scorpion crosslock. Also, Didi should be kept far away from professional wrestling until she understands the concept of kayfabe.

I think DiDi might spontaneously become the new Montrealean Wrestling sensation. For better or worse. Also, Roxxy might get hurt badly.

[Olinser]

What glass mouse said. Also, Olinser, you seem to be completely missing the fact that by being genderfluid that makes all the difference.

That's actually a pretty good drawing of a scorpion crosslock. Also, Didi should be kept far away from professional wrestling until she understands the concept of kayfabe.

No, it doesn't. The question was asked when it had been established that Angel was male or female. The strip linked demonstrated literally nothing with regards to that.

Ruby's outburst WOULD have been a good strip to link, and was much more concrete evidence.

[Kato]

Well, Dillon being confused makes me a bit less worried about my lack of observation. Also, Zii is being helpful. Or at least, giving useful advice.

And the main comic leaves the more interesting part to skip to an older scene... I guess that answers why that date went wrong.

[Cikomyr]

Let us be fair. He has the rights to.hold these opinions regarding its degrading treatment of women.

Maybe he goes over the edge when he claims no women right in their mind should like it. Maybe. Its a bit judgemental.

But he certainly in the wrong for not even picking on some obvious visual cues she was sending. Come on bud, you are in a date. The meal isnt the important part, your date is? Pay attention to HER

[Glass Mouse]

But he certainly in the wrong for not even picking on some obvious visual cues she was sending. Come on bud, you are in a date. The meal isnt the important part, your date is? Pay attention to HER

Also, it's always charming to promote a cause so fiercely that you completely steamroll someone the cause is actually about/for.

Dude messed up on quite a few levels here

[Adaon Nightwind]

@ SaintRidley: Thanks for the Wrestling Information and Link! It does explain it, but i must admit it makes it unappealing for me. (I do not like betrayal in a team, just a personal quirk.)

BtT, the Date could have gone worse for him. Dude got both dishes, appearantly, and without even asking.

[Jayngfet]

Let us be fair. He has the rights to.hold these opinions regarding its degrading treatment of women.

Deciding that something meant for adults shouldn't be available for purchase by them because it offends your sensibilities is an opinion that should never be entertained. She can't get the version she wants due to people exactly like him.

This is pretty anvilicious but the point itself needs to be made. Especially by an artist who's career is based on this kind of thing.

[Cikomyr]

Deciding that something meant for adults shouldn't be available for purchase by them because it offends your sensibilities is an opinion that should never be entertained. She can't get the version she wants due to people exactly like him.

This is pretty anvilicious but the point itself needs to be made. Especially by an artist who's career is based on this kind of thing.

Oh, i am not claiming that he is right in deciding what is best for others. But i have to say i am pretty uncomfortable defending what is essentially blatant objectification of women, where the feminine gender is reduced to nothing more than a shape to be lusted at.

Its.. Degrading. But holding that opinion (like i clearly do) is not a license to act like a jerk.

And even if you want to preach about these values (which is rarely effectice), there is a time and place. A date is NOT the time and place.

[Felius]

And there it is. She almost felt she didn't actually belong to this webcomic, and was being far too reasonable and self aware. Now we know she actually does fit in with the rest of the characters.

[Kato]

And there it is. She almost felt she didn't actually belong to this webcomic, and was being far too reasonable and self aware. Now we know she actually does fit in with the rest of the characters.

Maybe it's the characters. Maybe they carry some weird kind of sexual diesease they spread to people getting close? Anyway... she's acting normal in the way she's reating Gary now. For the comic's standard.

Also: So... Aaina had Sandra eat her... steamed buns all night? And then...? And I totally forgot... Marie's gay now? (It's chic, too)

And SDB... uhm, OKAY. Better no comment.

[Thialfi]

Judging by Angel's reaction I'm assuming that there is something derogatory to the term that Ramona used to describe herself. Is this the case?

The origin of the word is from greek mythology as it refers to the love child of Hermes and Aphrodite, so I don't see a cause for offense there, but I don't really know.

[JadedDM]

Judging by Angel's reaction I'm assuming that there is something derogatory to the term that Ramona used to describe herself. Is this the case?

The origin of the word is from greek mythology as it refers to the love child of Hermes and Aphrodite, so I don't see a cause for offense there, but I don't really know.

Indeed, 'hermaphrodite' is considered an offensive term by many. 'Intersex' is the preferred term now.

[Olinser]

Indeed, 'hermaphrodite' is considered an offensive term by many. 'Intersex' is the preferred term now.

It's a word that's been around for somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 years and has a concrete definition with no negative connotations. PC people seriously need to get over themselves.

[Guancyto]

This is also an intersex person referring to themselves as a hermaphrodite.

I, uh, I think that even in the most PC paradigms they're allowed to do that?

[tonytong]

nice

[Olinser]

This is also an intersex person referring to themselves as a hermaphrodite.

I, uh, I think that even in the most PC paradigms they're allowed to do that?

Which is why Angel screaming about the term is idiotic. Angel is essentially demanding that the person the term ACTUALLY refers to arbitrarily be offended and conform to her 'correct' terminology.



One other note. Am I the only one that finds the most recent SoTR to be extremely creepy? Aaina basically sexually molested Sandra when she was too drunk to even know what was going on.

[Discus-Spinner]

Angel is being an idiot, obviously (like, this is new?), but technically, "hermaphrodite" means a creature with both male and female genitals, which is insanely rare (like, probably non-existent) among human beings. "Intersex" means ambiguous genital anatomy or hormonal responses, and hence is presumably correct for Ramona.

Sure, Angel is almost certainly being right on rather than being a semantics fascist - but he'll have the semantics fascists on his side this time. Plus, I think that there's a slight sense that "hermaphrodite" has overtones of the old-fashioned freak show, though whether that's a real problem is another matter.

As for Aaina - well, yes, she's being a little bit creepy. But she didn't so much "molest" as "let herself be molested by", so I'll still call it comedy.

[Kato]

Angel is being an idiot, obviously (like, this is new?), but technically, "hermaphrodite" means a creature with both male and female genitals, which is insanely rare (like, probably non-existent) among human beings. "Intersex" means ambiguous genital anatomy or hormonal responses, and hence is presumably correct for Ramona.

I'm not going to say "more common than you might think" but it happens, i.e. hermaphrodite humans. But it's rare enough. I guess the big-ish issue is the term is used for animals and plants and - yes- used to be the "freak" term, but it also somewhat excludes questions about the individuals psyche and self-identification.
However... Ramona can call herself whatever she wants in my book.

As for Aaina - well, yes, she's being a little bit creepy. But she didn't so much "molest" as "let herself be molested by", so I'll still call it comedy.

What I was going to say. And it's not like she actively did something, cuddle with a drunk Sandra who gave no indication she minded. She didn't start groping back or anything from what we know.


edit: it seems Gary's small developing spine has vanished again.

[Olinser]

Angel is being an idiot, obviously (like, this is new?), but technically, "hermaphrodite" means a creature with both male and female genitals, which is insanely rare (like, probably non-existent) among human beings. "Intersex" means ambiguous genital anatomy or hormonal responses, and hence is presumably correct for Ramona.

Sure, Angel is almost certainly being right on rather than being a semantics fascist - but he'll have the semantics fascists on his side this time. Plus, I think that there's a slight sense that "hermaphrodite" has overtones of the old-fashioned freak show, though whether that's a real problem is another matter.

As for Aaina - well, yes, she's being a little bit creepy. But she didn't so much "molest" as "let herself be molested by", so I'll still call it comedy.

So if Aaina were male and Sandra had dreamed about 'eating sausages' instead of 'steamed buns', then everything would still be cool?

[Kato]

So if Aaina were male and Sandra had dreamed about 'eating sausages' instead of 'steamed buns', then everything would still be cool?

You know that... steamed buns and sausages are not equivalent, right? I mean, if Sandra was eating... uh... clams(?) all night things might be somewhat more iffy, but then... honstly, it's not like you'd sleep-******** anyone in real life. Right?

[TinyMushroom]

I know I shouldn't expect too much from these comics, but to be honest the fact that Dillon is being a total jerk and denying the legitimacy of Angel's gender identity while getting off practically scot-free is making me really uncomfortable.

I mean I agree that Angel is being a jerk about things as well and shouldn't be policing how Ramona refers to herself. But the way Angel's being portrayed as the most unreasonable person in the room, especially taking into account the fact that he's the first/only nonbinary character in the comic as far as I remember just doesn't sit well with me.

[Glass Mouse]

I know I shouldn't expect too much from these comics, but to be honest the fact that Dillon is being a total jerk and denying the legitimacy of Angel's gender identity while getting off practically scot-free is making me really uncomfortable.

I mean I agree that Angel is being a jerk about things as well and shouldn't be policing how Ramona refers to herself. But the way Angel's being portrayed as the most unreasonable person in the room, especially taking into account the fact that he's the first/only nonbinary character in the comic as far as I remember just doesn't sit well with me.

While, yes, Dillon is being a complete and total jerk, I wouldn't say he's presented as being in the right. In the past three strips:

Dillon loses the verbal sparring by inadverdently acknowledging Angel's gender.
Dillon's cisnormative assumptions become a punchline.
"Angel's... right."

Not to mention that in Angel's previous scene, s/he was the calm educator with Ruby's awkward yaoi-fangirlism being the punchline. The comic has generally been good about not going the "omg she thinks she's a boy, isn't that hilarious?" route, with most punchlines having very little to do with Angel's gender and more to do with his eccentric personality, his Dillon hate, or other people's awkwardness around him.

It's on iffy territory, but I wouldn't call it damning. Personally, I'm kinda expecting Zii to step in with a 101 smackdown (which might justify her inclusion in the storyline, since she has thus far mostly just been a foil for Ruby's business ideas).

But I also might be biased because I've never loved Angel more than I do in these strips. He's being hilarious and strangely endearing. It's refreshing to see new flavors of jerk apart from "catty Jerzy-stealer"