Ravenloft and Binders

[Debihuman]

The Powers That Be in Ravenloft take the place of deities and vestiges in Ravenloft, if you are playing it straight. Clerics and the like lose their connection to their deities but still receive spells and such. It's more to get the feel of how cut off the demiplane is from the rest of the cosmos.

You should actually read up on Ravenloft. Which edition is this? It was licensed to White Wolf for 3rd edition and 3.5. It's one of my favorite settings as I'm a big fan of gothic horror. White Wolf did a nice of job of keeping the flavor from 2nd edition.

Debby

[Coidzor]

I disagree, while the Dark Powers certainly can do a whole lot which means they can definitely futz around with Binding in the Demiplane of Dread, I can't see even them being capable of completely cutting off an area from that which doesn't exist.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think I see the DM's point. In a setting where many actions are the slippery slope into evil, inviting powers of questionable morality to use your soul as a summer home would...Probably not be the world's greatest idea. It'd be a bit like slathering oneself in barbecue sauce before facing a ravenous ghoul. This is a setting where even summoning a holy mount blessed by the gods on one's home world is a very bad idea and curses linger and often backfire.

I think Clerics get around this because the Dark Powers actually fuel their magic, so they don't need a connection to their god. Given the theme of imprisonment within Ravenloft, the DM might be denying it because of it, even from the void of nothingness and nowhere that these vestiges hang out in. Having something pop in, even a vestige might break that theme in a way the DM is not comfortable with or worries about it ruining the tone for others. Could also be a problem that Darklords would be given an out in the form of trying to become a vestige. Overall a bad idea, but some might be desperate enough to do it.

[atemu1234]

Guys, guys: The DM is missing a cool opportunity. HAVE THE GUY SUMMON DARK POWERS' VICTIMS. Refluff, replace, and work from there. Heck, maybe even the Dark Powers themselves.

[A Tad Insane]

Snip

A binder without vestiges is worse than a cleric without spells. Furthermore, most vestige's manifestations are rather high on the 'spoopy' spectrum. How far would a binder go to bind a vestige to get them through the day? How far would they go to silence any witnesses? Even without saying the dark ones get to hijack a power that literally no other entity can (because it physically doesn't exist), binders are loaded with way more moral dilemmas than your average cleric.


Re: Torrasque (because I don't want to spam)

But binders don't summon! (Unless it's a vestige with summoning, e.g. zzycelldjhqhd) Vestiges are "beings that cannot exist inhabit(ing) a place that cannot exist". Their manifestations are just illusions that represent them, and can't be interacted with beyond making a pact.

[torrasque666]

Remember though that few things can escape the demiplane of Dread, summoned creatures don't even get to leave. They get stuck once the duration ends (and are free to take action against the one who brought them there). Divination spells that rely on contacting a different plane (like Commune) get screwed over. So it stands to reason that bringing even a portion of the vestige into Ravenloft would then leave it stuck there, possibly drawing the entirety of the entity (try saying that five times fast) into Ravenloft over time.


Long story short, Ravenloft doesn't play well with things that involve any sort of summoning, which Binders technically do before they can make their pacts.

[Honest Tiefling]

A binder without vestiges is worse than a cleric without spells. Furthermore, most vestige's manifestations are rather high on the 'spoopy' spectrum. How far would a binder go to bind a vestige to get them through the day? How far would they go to silence any witnesses? Even without saying the dark ones get to hijack a power that literally no other entity can (because it physically doesn't exist), binders are loaded with way more moral dilemmas than your average cleric.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fluff of the Binder (never had the opportunity to play one, however). And while the reason you provide is thematic, it also seems like a one-way ticket to Darklordom. Having a single player be in a situation to be more likely to be splatted or turned into an NPC might be something for most DMs to avoid. I think the DM should have communicated more about the why of things, but I can see why from a tonal perspective the Binder either doesn't fit, or fits in too well. In that it defies imprisonment that the plane basically operates by, or the player might become a Darklord themselves. Some people would love to play with that dilemma, others might not want the weakness of it.

Guys, guys: The DM is missing a cool opportunity. HAVE THE GUY SUMMON DARK POWERS' VICTIMS. Refluff, replace, and work from there. Heck, maybe even the Dark Powers themselves.

Admittedly, I think this is a very cool option. I would personally worry that channelling the Dark Powers might seem a bit railroady (they aren't powers that really take no for an answer...) but might avoid a lot of issues if the player was okay with it and a mechanical way for the bad pacts to fulfill the schemes of the Dark Powers could be devised.

[Coidzor]

Guys, guys: The DM is missing a cool opportunity. HAVE THE GUY SUMMON DARK POWERS' VICTIMS. Refluff, replace, and work from there.

The Dark Powers' Victims are former adventurers who got grabbed by the mists because the Dark Powers are jerks and the Dark Lords themselves. Also the current party.

Dark Lord themed binding would be a bit wiggy, and a fair amount of work. But potentially interesting. Maybe.

Heck, maybe even the Dark Powers themselves.

wat

Remember though that few things can escape the demiplane of Dread, summoned creatures don't even get to leave. They get stuck once the duration ends (and are free to take action against the one who brought them there). Divination spells that rely on contacting a different plane (like Commune) get screwed over. So it stands to reason that bringing even a portion of the vestige into Ravenloft would then leave it stuck there, possibly drawing the entirety of the entity (try saying that five times fast) into Ravenloft over time.

What? No. it doesn't.

I think I see the DM's point. In a setting where many actions are the slippery slope into evil,

I'm pretty sure the point of Ravenloft is that the universe hates the party, except for when it's using the party to torment a Darklord, which the universe hates worse than the party, not that the actions themselves are the slippery slope into evil so much as the universe will actually retroactively change itself for maximum suffering as the result of any action, any time where this seems to be to the contrary is merely an investment in order to get a larger payoff of suffering down the road.

inviting powers of questionable morality to use your soul as a summer home would...Probably not be the world's greatest idea.

You do realize that the only time morality enters into it is if you make a bad pact and are compelled to act in a way that is not the most ethical, right?

It'd be a bit like slathering oneself in barbecue sauce before facing a ravenous ghoul.

So now Binders are tanking the Dark Powers?

Could also be a problem that Darklords would be given an out in the form of trying to become a vestige. Overall a bad idea, but some might be desperate enough to do it.

You can't intentionally become a Vestige, and no Darklord would attempt to do so unless the DM wanted it, so this thought is empty of meaning.

[torrasque666]

What? No. it doesn't.

No, it kinda does. Everything that gets brought into Ravenloft gets stuck there (with a few exceptions explicitly called out, like the Vistani). And given that a Binder does have to summon their vestiges before they can make their pact, you then have the question of what happens when the vestige's pact expires? Or if the Binder decides not to bind them after all and doesn't complete the pact? The vestige was still summoned into a plane where almost nothing escapes.

Alternatively, tell me how it doesn't rather than just saying "no". Because otherwise I can just say "yes" right back. And then its just childish.

[WhamBamSam]

No, it kinda does. Everything that gets brought into Ravenloft gets stuck there (with a few exceptions explicitly called out, like the Vistani). And given that a Binder does have to summon their vestiges before they can make their pact, you then have the question of what happens when the vestige's pact expires? Or if the Binder decides not to bind them after all and doesn't complete the pact? The vestige was still summoned into a plane where almost nothing escapes.

Alternatively, tell me how it doesn't rather than just saying "no". Because otherwise I can just say "yes" right back. And then its just childish.

Because a vestige is, in many respects less than nothing and the void isn't a place that can be cut off from/otherwise interact weirdly with Ravenloft, so much as it is just "nowhere." Binding a vestige isn't really "summoning" in the usual sense. The thing that appears in the binding circle isn't really appearing there but rather "looking in."

[Tzardok]

A few months back I asked Afroakuma how nonstandard ways of doing magic would change in Ravenloft. He gave me his answer here, but I'm going to quote the part on vestiges for your convenience:

• What is given to a vestige may be more than was intended, and will be harder to get back. Checks to resist a vestige's influence or conceal signs are more difficult, and these elements may become exaggerated or twisted in new ways by the plane. Sense of self may be imperiled. The Vistani are familiar with pact magic and avoid its practice, with those who engage with vestiges known as laugotte if they can resist the signs and influences, or folto if they cannot. Some Vistani possess the skills to help a folto, but such a service is entirely at their discretion and associated with two personal costs - the one required to sever the pact, and the one imposed to teach fools not to toy with dangerous forces.

I hope I was able to help.

[Ventruenox]

Mödley Crüe: The Dark Powers of Ravenloft may not revive threads here.