Flash, Season 2

[Kittenwolf]

WHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYY????!!!!!!

Spoiler: Latest crossover eps

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WHY?? Why would you waste an A-list supervillain like Vandal Savage like that? Turning him into some quasi-mystical superbeing with vague powers shoehorned into someone else's origin story?

There was absolutely zero reason to not use Hath-Set like the source material, rather than turning a genuinely scary character into a D-list monster of the week.

[Zmeoaice]

Well he's not the "monster of the week", they're setting him up for Legends of Tomorrow.

[thorgrim29]

I liked the crossover, Vandal Savage was a bit odd and I have no idea why Captain jack is an evil ninja but eh whatever. On that note, is it too early to propose titles for the Legends of Tomorrow thread? If not I propose Legends of Tomorrow, Rory's a Time Agent now.

[LaZodiac]

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Oh so I also watched the second half of this cross over. I'm curious what bad **** will happen to make time feel "satisfied" after Barry's ****ing with time again. It's a shame Kendra is no longer gonna be with Sisco cause they were cute together.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

WHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYY????!!!!!!

Spoiler: Latest crossover eps

Show

WHY?? Why would you waste an A-list supervillain like Vandal Savage like that? Turning him into some quasi-mystical superbeing with vague powers shoehorned into someone else's origin story?

There was absolutely zero reason to not use Hath-Set like the source material, rather than turning a genuinely scary character into a D-list monster of the week.

The worst part is, they could with 2-3 very minor dialog changes have fixed it...
"So he is 4,000 years old?"
"No, we are, he was Ancient when he was my father's advisor..."

[BWR]

The worst part is, they could with 2-3 very minor dialog changes have fixed it...
"So he is 4,000 years old?"
"No, we are, he was Ancient when he was my father's advisor..."

Did Savage actually say he was only 4000 years old? If not he could still be the older VS we know and Hall and the League of Assassins just don't know any better.

[The New Bruceski]

I liked the crossover, Vandal Savage was a bit odd and I have no idea why Captain jack is an evil ninja but eh whatever. On that note, is it too early to propose titles for the Legends of Tomorrow thread? If not I propose Legends of Tomorrow, Rory's a Time Agent now.

Why Captain Jack is an evil ninja:

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Malcom Merlyn used to be a loving family man, father of Oliver Queen's best friend Tommy Merlyn. His wife ran a free clinic in the Shades Glades, and was killed during a mugging. This broke Malcom, and he looked for a way to get revenge, to eliminate the crime and gang violence that plagued Starling City. He found the League of Assassins, an organization of ninjas. He came back with an earthquake machine to destroy the Glades (against the wished of the League's leader, Raesh al'Ghul), Oliver stopped him, but Tommy died during the attempt, breaking Malcom further. Then the League comes hunting Merlyn but it turns out that he's the father of Oliver's sister Thea, so he protects Malcom. In so doing he fights Raesh, loses, gets stabbed, falls off a cliff, "gets better" and Raesh says "this kid has moxie, let's have him replace me in the League."

So then you have a whole bunch of "tempted by the darkness" plot stuff, Oliver runs around being emo, and in the end he fights Raesh, kills him, and makes Merlyn leader of the League because WHY IS THAT A GOOD IDEA? So now Merlyn plays a "I'm not a nice guy but family is family and this city's your turf" role that mostly involves coming in from time to time with advice like "you'll stop feeling bad if you kill people" or "don't do this thing we both know you're going to do anyway, no I won't help you despite me wanting this guy dead as much as you do."

Did I forget anything?

[Kittenwolf]

Did Savage actually say he was only 4000 years old? If not he could still be the older VS we know and Hall and the League of Assassins just don't know any better.

Savage doesn't say he's 4000 years old from memory, but he *does* say that his life force is tied to the Hawks, and he'll die without killing them and stealing their life force.

[thorgrim29]

Why Captain Jack is an evil ninja:

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Malcom Merlyn used to be a loving family man, father of Oliver Queen's best friend Tommy Merlyn. His wife ran a free clinic in the Shades Glades, and was killed during a mugging. This broke Malcom, and he looked for a way to get revenge, to eliminate the crime and gang violence that plagued Starling City. He found the League of Assassins, an organization of ninjas. He came back with an earthquake machine to destroy the Glades (against the wished of the League's leader, Raesh al'Ghul), Oliver stopped him, but Tommy died during the attempt, breaking Malcom further. Then the League comes hunting Merlyn but it turns out that he's the father of Oliver's sister Thea, so he protects Malcom. In so doing he fights Raesh, loses, gets stabbed, falls off a cliff, "gets better" and Raesh says "this kid has moxie, let's have him replace me in the League."

So then you have a whole bunch of "tempted by the darkness" plot stuff, Oliver runs around being emo, and in the end he fights Raesh, kills him, and makes Merlyn leader of the League because WHY IS THAT A GOOD IDEA? So now Merlyn plays a "I'm not a nice guy but family is family and this city's your turf" role that mostly involves coming in from time to time with advice like "you'll stop feeling bad if you kill people" or "don't do this thing we both know you're going to do anyway, no I won't help you despite me wanting this guy dead as much as you do."

Did I forget anything?

Wow, arrow sounds like a bummer.

[LaZodiac]

Wow, arrow sounds like a bummer.

Reminder that in Season 1 of Arrow, Oliver killed the **** out of a lot of people. There's a reason people are like "...yeah no Arrow is a bad show". It's bummer central.

[thorgrim29]

I don't mind heroes killing people. Hell, I'm still watching Supernatural 10 seasons in (every time I think I'm done an episode like Fan Fiction comes along and convinces me to stay on) and I love Stargate. I just like my brooding darkness shows to be a bit more grounded.

[themaque]

Possibly Pedantic question on the second part of this 2 parter

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Anyone else find it odd that Barry didn't grab the arrow with Vandal's blood on it? They run blood tests on EVERYBODY in the Flash but this time, when he is clearly somehow super powered, he doesn't? It is because it was ARROW episode and they don't do that?

and I'm actually really looking forward to seeing tonight's episode because I still geek out over Mark Hamil's Trickster.

(I'm totally convinced it's why Joker and Harley exist as they did in the Batman cartoon)

[LaZodiac]

New episode!

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Actually pretty good one too. I like the interaction between Wizard, Cold, and Trickster. It's also just a blast to have The Trickster back in the first place. I feel like a lot of the Christmas themed banter was a liiiittle forced, but did actually work. Especially with Trickster (again).

I also really like the hints of Cold becoming a good guy, because it's super great and I feel like someone with a cold gun working with a speedster would be really good and sensible a combo (shoot a path of ice into the air for them to have a place to run, for example).

That said some of it was kind of bad. Worst line of the episode is the cop lady saying "I'm seeing someone" when Flash tells her to hold on. Very comicbooky though so I can't complain that much?

The solution to the bombs is uh...not possible by any degree of science I think but hey dimensional vortexes and stuff who knows how this stuff really works! Still, a good episode and no tidal wave destroying the city again. We also got a nice tense moment with Patty (I forgot her name briefly above sorry).

We've also got some interesting looks at Zoom ****ing with Wells. We also know what Zoom's goal is: eating Speedsters.

So yeah in summery, good episode with some clunky moments but overall still quite good. Like most of The Flash honestly, except when it's crossovering with Arrow.

EDIT: @Maque: Probably because something about what he's done gives them reason to believe he isn't a Meta-human. It's dumb, and I personally blame the weird kinda error on Arrorw's "Arrow-ness". Would of been cool if they did though.

[themaque]

New episode!

EDIT: @Maque: Probably because something about what he's done gives them reason to believe he isn't a Meta-human. It's dumb, and I personally blame the weird kinda error on Arrorw's "Arrow-ness". Would of been cool if they did though.

They knew he was magic and thousands of years old at that point. I would TOTALLY be wanting to run a few tests on that!

I am going to blame "Arrow-ism" on that.

Who doesn't feel sorry for Cisco on this one? She chose... poorly.

I do love that he is still ready at ANY given time to whip out more tech toys at the slightest provocation.

[themaque]

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Actually pretty good one too. I like the interaction between Wizard, Cold, and Trickster. It's also just a blast to have The Trickster back in the first place. I feel like a lot of the Christmas themed banter was a liiiittle forced, but did actually work. Especially with Trickster (again).

I also really like the hints of Cold becoming a good guy, because it's super great and I feel like someone with a cold gun working with a speedster would be really good and sensible a combo (shoot a path of ice into the air for them to have a place to run, for example).

That said some of it was kind of bad. Worst line of the episode is the cop lady saying "I'm seeing someone" when Flash tells her to hold on. Very comicbooky though so I can't complain that much?

The solution to the bombs is uh...not possible by any degree of science I think but hey dimensional vortexes and stuff who knows how this stuff really works! Still, a good episode and no tidal wave destroying the city again. We also got a nice tense moment with Patty (I forgot her name briefly above sorry).

We've also got some interesting looks at Zoom ****ing with Wells. We also know what Zoom's goal is: eating Speedsters.

So yeah in summery, good episode with some clunky moments but overall still quite good. Like most of The Flash honestly, except when it's crossovering with Arrow.

Yeah, I got to agree that it was more than a little forced when dealing with the <REDACTED> but other than that, highly enjoyable episode.

I'm glad to see Jay back. I LOVE Hamil as Trickster. I still love this version of Cold as he is very similar to many of my favorite portrayals of the character.

[thorgrim29]

Mark Hammil's Joker voice should be the voice of every villain with a sense of humour ever. Also, I wonder how much longer they're going to drag on keeping the secret from Patty (Patty doesn't know, so don't tell Patty, Patty doesn't know-oh-oh-oh-oh etc etc...)

[ryuplaneswalker]

So I started watching this series on netflix.

and I am in love with it, it is everything a good super hero show should be, the second episode opens with Barry saving people from a fire, as much as I enjoy Arrow, I think the writers of the flash hit the super hero head on the nail just a little better.

[LaZodiac]

Mark Hammil's Joker voice should be the voice of every villain with a sense of humour ever. Also, I wonder how much longer they're going to drag on keeping the secret from Patty (Patty doesn't know, so don't tell Patty, Patty doesn't know-oh-oh-oh-oh etc etc...)

The implication of the teaser for the show's next episode after it uh...comes back from winter break is

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they're gonna tell Patty but Zoom eats her.

So I started watching this series on netflix.

and I am in love with it, it is everything a good super hero show should be, the second episode opens with Barry saving people from a fire, as much as I enjoy Arrow, I think the writers of the flash hit the super hero head on the nail just a little better.

I agree, quite a lot. The Flash isn't the best show sometimes, but it does totally nail the feeling of being a super hero. Arrow is a man who is hated, or should be hated, or at the very least chastised for murdering a **** ton of people. The Flash is so popular in universe that he gets toys made from him. He also gets toys made from his villains, like Captain Cold. Which...I've pointed this out to some of my friends and they found this hilarious so just keep what I just said in mind. Captain Cold, a bank robber and murderer...has an action figure. Arrow, who IS AN ACTUAL HERO, despite his early career experimentation with horrible death murder arrows...does NOT. Flash is so popular that the toy companies are willing to hit the controversy they'd get for making an action figure out of a literal murderer. But not for making a toy out of Arrow.

[dancrilis]

Captain Cold, a bank robber and murderer...has an action figure.

Given that he has a known identity he likely gets royalties from it also (using his likeness and all), in fact maybe he is helping out the Flash solely due to milking that lovely superhero money as much as possible - he might have setup his own toy company knowing that Barry would not oppose and that few other people would risk supervillain vengeance, and he could make a packet from kids and there parents.

How is that for a villainous plot.

[LaZodiac]

Given that he has a known identity he likely gets royalties from it also (using his likeness and all), in fact maybe he is helping out the Flash solely due to milking that lovely superhero money as much as possible - he might have setup his own toy company knowing that Barry would not oppose and that few other people would risk supervillain vengeance, and he could make a packet from kids and there parents.

How is that for a villainous plot.

Well I mean he's been in jail for awhile. And I mean yes, he hasn't killed anyone (beyond Papa Snert) so I guess it could work? It...just seems kind of baffling a concept. Here is this guy who is a criminal, a hardened actual criminal...but they still gotta pay him for image royalty rights to make an action figure. I don't know it's just weird in a really funny kind of way, like if we got an action figure of like...Al Capone or something.

[dancrilis]

And I mean yes, he hasn't killed anyone (beyond Papa Snert)

One of my issues with the character is that yes he did - in his first episode he murdered some of his associates and also a guard (to memory), but that doesn't stop the potential plot.

[TheEmerged]

Biggest laugh for me, bar none, was...

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"I can't let Christmas have all the fun!, followed by the Dreidel song. I have to admit I laughed loud enough I woke the dog up...

Spoiler: I also liked

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...this handling of the Wally issue. Jury's still out on whether or not they handle Wally himself well, but other than Wally no longer being any relations to Iris this was about the only way to go.

RE: Flash series getting superheroes right. Really, a part of me wanted to send a copy of Season 1 to the production team of "Batman vs Superman vs anyone else who happens to show up" but a> I'm not that rich and b> production was long done by that point anyway.

Memo to Warner - THIS is how to handle the characters, okay? This is what we want, and I'll tolerate the cheesy parts to get it. It's okay for there to be darkness, in fact there has to be something for the light to fight. But GrimDark's 15 minutes of fame should have ended sometime in the 90's, okay?

[everdeenkatniss]

New character could be an interesting addition to the team, but I'm worried her entire purpose is going to become the new "don't tell Iris" to lightningrod any mandatory CW drama.

[Pex]

Biggest laugh for me, bar none, was...

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"I can't let Christmas have all the fun!, followed by the Dreidel song. I have to admit I laughed loud enough I woke the dog up...

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Absolutely! All those dreidel bombs was just perfect.

[LaZodiac]

One of my issues with the character is that yes he did - in his first episode he murdered some of his associates and also a guard (to memory), but that doesn't stop the potential plot.

Sorry, early morning posting. I meant to specify "he hasn't killed anyone aside from his Dad after promising Barry he WOULDN'T" which kind of shows he is an honourable guy. He's still a murderer though based on his actions before then, so it's still hilarious to me that he gets an action figure and not an actual super hero.

[Zmeoaice]

Sorry, early morning posting. I meant to specify "he hasn't killed anyone aside from his Dad after promising Barry he WOULDN'T" which kind of shows he is an honourable guy. He's still a murderer though based on his actions before then, so it's still hilarious to me that he gets an action figure and not an actual super hero.

I'm pretty sure not-Cyclops begs to differ.

[themaque]

Sorry, early morning posting. I meant to specify "he hasn't killed anyone aside from his Dad after promising Barry he WOULDN'T" which kind of shows he is an honourable guy. He's still a murderer though based on his actions before then, so it's still hilarious to me that he gets an action figure and not an actual super hero.

If I remember correctly, He was actively trying to NOT murder people but his crew messed up first, so he messed them up.

Your killer with system of honor. Reservoir Dogs "Don't kill REAL people unless they get in my way" mentality.

[LaZodiac]

I'm pretty sure not-Cyclops begs to differ.

...right I forgot about that guy.

If I remember correctly, He was actively trying to NOT murder people but his crew messed up first, so he messed them up.

Your killer with system of honor. Reservoir Dogs "Don't kill REAL people unless they get in my way" mentality.

As I've said before I picked up this series at the time travel episode so thanks for telling me about how Captain Cold's first appearance went.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I agree, quite a lot. The Flash isn't the best show sometimes, but it does totally nail the feeling of being a super hero. Arrow is a man who is hated, or should be hated, or at the very least chastised for murdering a **** ton of people. The Flash is so popular in universe that he gets toys made from him. He also gets toys made from his villains, like Captain Cold. Which...I've pointed this out to some of my friends and they found this hilarious so just keep what I just said in mind. Captain Cold, a bank robber and murderer...has an action figure. Arrow, who IS AN ACTUAL HERO, despite his early career experimentation with horrible death murder arrows...does NOT. Flash is so popular that the toy companies are willing to hit the controversy they'd get for making an action figure out of a literal murderer. But not for making a toy out of Arrow.

The oddest thing about it all is, when Arrow showed up for that short Cameo in The First Episode, he did something more fun looking than I have seen him do in the first two entire seasons of the show with the Webslinging Arrow.

[LaZodiac]

The oddest thing about it all is, when Arrow showed up for that short Cameo in The First Episode, he did something more fun looking than I have seen him do in the first two entire seasons of the show with the Webslinging Arrow.

You can tell when The Flash writing team is handling a scene or episode because instead of being grim and dour it's got some jokes and enjoyment to it. Arrow is not a happy series.