We all know about polymorph issues. . . but solutions?

[TopCheese]

He's referring to the Instant Death rules:



Of course, this is overridden by the "any excess damage carries over to its normal form" clause.

There are other forms of instant death. There are spells (Power Word Kill or Disintegrate) that are higher level and yet would be stopped by a level 4 slot under the proposed change to Polymorph.

If I punt the rabbit (1hp?) off a cliff (easy to do with a rabbit) that creature is going to take a lot of falling damage. All that damage would go toward the rabbit and then the monster. With the proposed change it, the xd6 damage would go toward the rabbit, kill the rabbit, and none would go to the monster after it changes back.

Spells shouldn't be that powerful at level 4, the original spell or the proposed change. No other spell is that powerful at that level. Other level 4 spells are, at most, "let's deal with this later" or deal HP damage.

About the only way to balance Polymorph is to get rid of it, raise it to level 6, or perhaps allow a con/wis Save each round to reverse the effects.

[Rusty Killinger]

With the Rules As Written I only see one real problem, that character level is not even close to equal to challenge rating. Hence the T-Rex problem. I would probably rule that it follows the moon druid progression, that the max CR is 1/3 the character level rounded down.

As for the offensive options it all seems fine. It lets you pull one enemy out of a fight temporarily and finish him off later when it's 4 on 1. That seems consistent with the 4th level slot, the save and the concentration requirement.

I can't decide if the mid-air transformation back is broken or clever.

[KorvinStarmast]

Spells shouldn't be that powerful at level 4,

That's funny, the game's authors disagree with you.

Where does your "should" come from?
Thin air.
Fabrication from whole cloth is noted.

Your bunny example is evidence of some interesting tunnel vision as well as special pleading:

The spell is not cast in a vacuum. What else is going on during this encounter when the caster tries to disable one of the foes with this spell? How does the target's party or allies respond?

The spell breaks with one missed con save by the caster who is concentrating.

This spell forecloses the choice of some other spell during this encounter while the caster concentrates on it.

The spell does not automatically succeed.

Now, if the party cleverly takes advantage of this spell by tossing the bunny over the cliff .. that's called SYNERGY and is what good parties are supposed to try to achieve.
(I frankly like your idea on the "revert to zero" what happens, depending on how far the fall and thus how far beyond 0 HP the bunny goes. There are rules about falling damage. Use them. There are rules about "zero HP" and "instant death" so use them).

[DragonLordIT]

Wow . . didn't mean to do all this noise, still I have some thoughts:

-Not all enemies goes around with a party of minions, many are solitary monsters that plague the land and can be "bunnied", "fished", "turtled" and killed all in time by characters lower than a normal CR calculation would suggest.
Banished blocks possible interactions with players keeping the creature "safe" at least from PC's torture, imprisonment and so on. Polymorph lets you do whatever you want with the creature

-Not all monsters have read the player's handbook . .. why the hell a group of ogres/kobolds/warriors etc could know that to turn their friend back they just have to hit him carefully? They would probably be scared by the event not just think "meh, another polymorph, let's hit John wiht the point of the knife" metagaming is around the corner even for DMs

-I don't think the concentration thing is a big deal, turn your friend in the monster you want and then simply defend yourself, take cover around or behind another friend and let the big lizard do the rest; does he revert to its normal form? Cast again, new pfs and the thing start again, does the enemy goes around? He lost a turn and is at your disposal .. .

I really don't think this spell is balanced with the other ones of the same level. This doesn't mean a spell like this should not exist. But some carefully thought limitations would be obliged

[Lvl 2 Expert]

no polymorphing a polymorphed target

Ahhhh...

Can we just do it ones? Have a giant ape dance their front lines into disarray and when they've finally cornered is and beat it to zero, bam full HP tyrannosaurus?

[Demonic Spoon]

Wow . . didn't mean to do all this noise, still I have some thoughts:

-Not all enemies goes around with a party of minions, many are solitary monsters that plague the land and can be "bunnied", "fished", "turtled" and killed all in time by characters lower than a normal CR calculation would suggest.
Banished blocks possible interactions with players keeping the creature "safe" at least from PC's torture, imprisonment and so on. Polymorph lets you do whatever you want with the creature

-Not all monsters have read the player's handbook . .. why the hell a group of ogres/kobolds/warriors etc could know that to turn their friend back they just have to hit him carefully? They would probably be scared by the event not just think "meh, another polymorph, let's hit John wiht the point of the knife" metagaming is around the corner even for DMs

-I don't think the concentration thing is a big deal, turn your friend in the monster you want and then simply defend yourself, take cover around or behind another friend and let the big lizard do the rest; does he revert to its normal form? Cast again, new pfs and the thing start again, does the enemy goes around? He lost a turn and is at your disposal .. .

I really don't think this spell is balanced with the other ones of the same level. This doesn't mean a spell like this should not exist. But some carefully thought limitations would be obliged

Oh, I misread this initially. I thought we were talking about True Polymorph.

Anyway, concentration is easy to break. Most monsters except those with animal-level intelligence would know that many magical effects need to be concentrated on, and don't get hit simply isn't an option for most casters.

Furthermore, even if it is a save or suck for a single creature, what's the problem? How is this different than Hold Person? Polymorph is one level higher and doesn't allow you to deal permanent damage to the creature in exchange for Polymorph not allowing a save every round. If you have problems with Polymorph, surely you have similar problems with all save or suck spells.

Regarding single monsters - Fights with single monsters with normal action economy are intrinsically very swingy because the monster either really messes up at least one party member, or the monster dies quickly and never does anything useful. That's true regardless of whether or not the party is using save or suck spells. That's why such creatures, if intended to be very difficult, should have legendary actions and legendary resistances.

[TopCheese]

That's funny, the game's authors disagree with you.

It is funny how much this doesn't matter since the Devs have specifically said that DM opinions on their rules matter more than their rules or their ruling on rules.

[KorvinStarmast]

Wow . . didn't mean to do all this noise, still I have some thoughts:

-Not all enemies goes around with a party of minions, many are solitary monsters that plague the land and can be "bunnied", "fished", "turtled" and killed all in time by characters lower than a normal CR calculation would suggest.
Banished blocks possible interactions with players keeping the creature "safe" at least from PC's torture, imprisonment and so on. Polymorph lets you do whatever you want with the creature

-Not all monsters have read the player's handbook . .. why the hell a group of ogres/kobolds/warriors etc could know that to turn their friend back they just have to hit him carefully? They would probably be scared by the event not just think "meh, another polymorph, let's hit John wiht the point of the knife" metagaming is around the corner even for DMs

-I don't think the concentration thing is a big deal, turn your friend in the monster you want and then simply defend yourself, take cover around or behind another friend and let the big lizard do the rest; does he revert to its normal form? Cast again, new pfs and the thing start again, does the enemy goes around? He lost a turn and is at your disposal .. .

I really don't think this spell is balanced with the other ones of the same level. This doesn't mean a spell like this should not exist. But some carefully thought limitations would be obliged

Even though the limitations are addressed, you choose to hand wave them away and say that the spell needs limitations.

Got it.

Demonic Spoon's point on "save or suck" spells is correct, and has been with the game since it was first printed.

Now, how many encounters per day are you running? This small detail seems to be missed by the crowd who complains about game balance in a single encounter. The game wasn't balanced for a single encounter per game day, and they state that very clearly.

[TopCheese]

Even running at 8 encounters per say the caster can (eventually) use Polymorph as a 4th level spell in 6 battles. That is using just 4th level and 5th level slots. Using a 6th Level slot and 7th level slot means that they can cast Polymorph at least 1/encounter or 8/long rest.

What you fail to remember is that 5e is "balanced" around casters casting their spells.

And that's just using polymorph, the caster has a ton of other options at their disposal.

[KorvinStarmast]

Even running at 8 encounters per say the caster can (eventually) use Polymorph as a 4th level spell in 6 battles. That is using just 4th level and 5th level slots. Using a 6th Level slot and 7th level slot means that they can cast Polymorph at least 1/encounter or 8/long rest.

What level caster are you referring to here?

Why do you presume that the caster wants to use those other slots for polymorph?

[mephnick]

Intelligent creatures understand how the world they live in works, so they know that disrupting a caster will end a particularly brutal spell.

The wizard can cast polymorph any time he wants...he just has to get ready for 5 arrows to hit his face in the next 6 seconds.

If you're running combats against single enemies that can be ended in one action you have a whole other problem in the first place.

[DragonLordIT]

Intelligent creatures understand how the world they live in works, so they know that disrupting a caster will end a particularly brutal spell.

The wizard can cast polymorph any time he wants...he just has to get ready for 5 arrows to hit his face in the next 6 seconds.

If you're running combats against single enemies that can be ended in one action you have a whole other problem in the first place.

I was not imagining fights with guards, nobles or so on that may have lots of bodyguards and agents to solve their problems, and not even mages that would know the trick. I don't always run encounters with single enemies, it would be absurd, but monsters that live alone and are not intelligent exist.
Let's take the hydra, a solitary monster for his habit to eat everything around it, if a party is hunting for it, and would be a good adventure for a party of level 7, with a +0 in wis save, no kind of resistences, no ranged attacks and a likely CD of 15 from the party wizard 3 times out of 4 the hydra is out of the game.. . . wow , and now the bunny hydra can be captured, caged, brought in the air 100 mt from the ground and let fall . . . from a height of 100 mt I would likely consider everything killed . . and even if you roll all the dices of the damage from the fall the other party members are waiting for it to pop in its normal form and attack . .. very fair for a "hard" encounter.
After the hydra? Yeti, roc, remorhaz, purple wurm, stone and iron golems (ok magic resistent but with a +0 to the save), behirs are all mighty beasts that can be beaten with no efforts...

Hold person is meant to be cast on humanoids, the normally don't fight alone, and has a save each round; other spells have limitation on size, type and so on, this has not... a crawling undead hand could be transformed in a living beast! And so for a construct or even an ooze.

Yes I have a problem with fail or suck spells, never liked them I am a DM after all ... still never liked to use them against players

[Strill]

Sleep is broken because, 1 it uses a different system completely (one that I'm not sure they actually thought out) and 2 because it does something that a level 1 spell shouldn't do. It bypasses all defenses. The roll for sleep is insanely awesome at early levels and gets almost useless at later levels. Sleep has always been that spell that didn't belong mechanically in the game at such a low level.

Sleep doesn't bypass all defenses. It's based on hit points.

Just because there are other broken spells doesn't mean that another spell isn't broken too.

So you're saying that ALL the spells I listed are overpowered? Are you saying that Wizards shouldn't ever be able to incapacitate things? Because that's the impression I'm getting.

Most spells are not Save or Die, most are Save or Suck.

I never listed a single save-or-die spell.

The problem with polymorph is that it is a Save or Win and you get multiple castings from the 4th and 5th level slots so you can just wait and spam it on the boss.

Wall of Force doesn't get rid of a problem permantly, wall of Force is an up to 10 minute "let's calm the he'll down" type spell. You still have to deal with those enemies eventually.

That's exactly how polymorph works too! After you polymorph the boss you still have to kill it!

Polymorph specifically deals with a creature/enemy. It makes that enemy a non factor for up to the duration but I'm such a way that they become a non factor afterwards.

That's exactly what Wall of Force does.

Picking up a rabbit and punting it off the side of a cliff

By level 7, the creature should have enough HP to survive that and eventually come back for you.

(or drowning it by putting it in a very sturdy metal box (one that the rabbit has to squeeze into), and throwing it in a pond for 10 mintes)

The creature is shunted outside the box after reverting to its original form.

You can beat creatures way higher than your CR with Polymorph that you can't with other spells.

No you can't. Even if they don't resist the spell, you still have to kill them afterwards.

Polymorph is broken because it is a Save or Die spell that lets you win encounters above your CR. Wall spells let you out off fighting or dealing with a creature for a while, as does banishment, but they aren't such auto win spells. Wall and Banishment is a "put off till later" type spells not "Save or Die" spells.

Polymorph is not a save or die spell. It works exactly the same as Wall of Force or Banishment.

[JoeJ]

Let's take the hydra, a solitary monster for his habit to eat everything around it, if a party is hunting for it, and would be a good adventure for a party of level 7, with a +0 in wis save, no kind of resistences, no ranged attacks and a likely CD of 15 from the party wizard 3 times out of 4 the hydra is out of the game.. . . wow , and now the bunny hydra can be captured, caged, brought in the air 100 mt from the ground and let fall . . . from a height of 100 mt I would likely consider everything killed . . and even if you roll all the dices of the damage from the fall the other party members are waiting for it to pop in its normal form and attack . .. very fair for a "hard" encounter.

Assuming they catch the bunny, how do they get it up to 100 mt to drop? Hydras live in water, so it's a good bet they won't find one on top of a cliff, and the wizard can't cast Fly while concentrating on Polymorph.

If they somehow manage to do that, roll the dice. Falling has a maximum damage of 20d6. Hydras have an average of 172 hit points, so a fall of that height will hurt it but won't kill it. And unless the party managed to move quite a ways since they cast the spell, they probably dropped it in the water. So it's hurt, but it's also angry and in it's home terrain. That's still going to be a tough fight. Plus, a hydra isn't mindless; if it's getting low on hit points, it will most likely swim away and find a place to rest. The party has won this round, but the hunt continues.

[SharkForce]

Assuming they catch the bunny, how do they get it up to 100 mt to drop? Hydras live in water, so it's a good bet they won't find one on top of a cliff, and the wizard can't cast Fly while concentrating on Polymorph.

If they somehow manage to do that, roll the dice. Falling has a maximum damage of 20d6. Hydras have an average of 172 hit points, so a fall of that height will hurt it but won't kill it. And unless the party managed to move quite a ways since they cast the spell, they probably dropped it in the water. So it's hurt, but it's also angry and in it's home terrain. That's still going to be a tough fight. Plus, a hydra isn't mindless; if it's getting low on hit points, it will most likely swim away and find a place to rest. The party has won this round, but the hunt continues.

not to mention the same wizard could have just used fly to kill the hydra from beyond the hydra's ability to retaliate in the first place.

[NNescio]

There are other forms of instant death. There are spells (Power Word Kill or Disintegrate) that are higher level and yet would be stopped by a level 4 slot under the proposed change to Polymorph.

If I punt the rabbit (1hp?) off a cliff (easy to do with a rabbit) that creature is going to take a lot of falling damage. All that damage would go toward the rabbit and then the monster. With the proposed change it, the xd6 damage would go toward the rabbit, kill the rabbit, and none would go to the monster after it changes back.

Punt the bunny off the cliff, and it'll take falling damage to the bunny form (1 hp), morph back (because the bunny form is at 0 hp), then take the remainder damage to the normal form. If this is enough to bring the base form down to 0 hp, the remaining damage (Damage - Polymorph Hp - Base HP) is checked against the base form's maximum health for instant death.

Power Word: Kill causes the bunny to die, reverting it back to its normal form. It's still dead, however. The spell doesn't actually deal damage.

Disintegrate is a little iffy, since it actually deals damage, unlike PWK. I'll rule that the "excess damage carries over" is resolved first before the disintegrate effect, however.

Ah, sure, Onion this, Onion that, but I want Druids to consider using low HP forms for scouting. Otherwise it's all tanky meatshields, and Land Druids get shafted.

Also, really, Onion Druid ain't a problem before Level 20. There's only so many Wild Shapes you can use per short rest (by comparison, the Warlock gets to recharge his spells), and their damage kinda suck compared to the Fighter, Rogue, or other DPS classes anyway ('cept around Level 2~4 for Moon Druids).

Spells shouldn't be that powerful at level 4, the original spell or the proposed change. No other spell is that powerful at that level. Other level 4 spells are, at most, "let's deal with this later" or deal HP damage.

Unless you throw nothing but Solos without Legendary Resistance/Counterspell et al, Polymorph is also a "let's deal with this later" spell when used in combat. All it takes is an enemy to bonk the other guy over his head, and he's reverted back, if you're using a low hp form. (You can use a high hp form like a whale, but that thing is way harder to punt after the fight) Or bonk you to try to break your concentration (and believe me, you'll be public enemy number one). And that's assuming he even fails his save first.

Metagaming on the part of the DM? Eh, only if every encounter does that. The BBEG will probably have standing orders for his mooks to bonk him, however, if it's a common tactic used by the PCs.

About the only way to balance Polymorph is to get rid of it, raise it to level 6, or perhaps allow a con/wis Save each round to reverse the effects.

At most I'll consider dropping it to half CR, 'though really, Giant Apes and T-Rexes aren't much of an issue since they are effectively turned into friendly pets anyway. They only retain their alignment and personality. And again, bonk the caster.

Sure, the caster can try to sit out of the fight elsewhere while maintaining concentration, but that's like, two characters traded out for a T-Rex, which is a steep price to pay.

[Markoff Chainey]

The best solution that I ever found is from Kryx!

Polymorph is unique in the way that its power depends not on the caster, but on the target! (When it is used to transform an ally.)

If you change the sentence: "The new form can be any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a challenge rating)."

to: "The new form can be any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the level of the casting slot used to cast this spell."

the weirdness is gone that it depends on the power level of the target and it totally changes the offensive use of the spell and makes it balanced in my opinion.

Now, you do not need to "sacrifice" the worst of your own combatants anymore in order to bring a combat monster to the table... (It is not funny for the healer to always have to play the dumb dinosaur when he actually created a cleric...) you sacrifice your concentration and get a minor, but still recognizable ally by your side. And instead of your "healer" you can target your pet mouse or whatever.

And the spell still works the same as before when used on an opponent. - This is not a problem.

[Mrglee]

A list of debuffs I would rather cast on the enemy than Polymorph
Blindness/Deafness
Command
Hold Person
Bestow Curse
Stinking Cloud
Banishment
Compulsion
Confusion
Dominate Beast
Evad Black Tentacles

Like, polymorphing something really only helps if you can then trap it someplace air tight and let it suffocate to death once its changes back(or just dies cause of suffocation). All of the above debuffs are just going to end the fight quicker.
Now, polymorph is an amazing buff spell, but due to how the hp works, it just adds hp until the target is dead for the most part.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hi everyone,
I have read here and there about the issues with polymorph, abused to turn your companions in T-rexes and so on. But does it seems to someone else that is even more dangerous if used on enemies? Turn the boss monster in a chicken and drown him or (as my player did) turn it in a turtle and throw him from a cliff shooting everything to him while in air. . . compared with similar spell of the same level (mainly banished as phylosophy) it is really stronger, more versatile and more dangerous.

Do someone applied restrictions to this spell? Did someone else deal with it?
You cannot place shapechangers everywhere . . .

A T-rex is CR 8, meaning your subject already has to be 8th level, it also costs a 4th level spell slot and concentration on the Wizard (meaning there are a substantial number of toys they can't play with while it is active).

In addition, it's vulnerable to two third level spells (dispel magic and counterspell) as well as any number of spells that incapacitate (breaking concentration). For example, a 7th level Wizard who can cast polymorph has an average of 27 hit points before con modifier which can add anywhere from 0-35 hp. The sleep spell, which provides no save, averages 22.5 hp in a 1st level slot +9/spell level over 1st. So, from a 2nd level spell slot a totally undamaged Wizard can be instantly incapacitated, neutralizing their 4th level spell. This can even be done with a 1st level slot if the Wizard has taken really, even a lick of damage or if the roll is better than average.

So no, I really don't see a problem with it given how absurdly vulnerable such a tactic is to disruption.

Irrelevant. That is not what it says in the book.

DM > book > FAQ/Tweets/ect

The book says the player doesn't choose the types of creatures, they only choose a package. The DM chooses the creatures, this is by the rulebook.

For emphasis: "Choose one of the following options" + "The DM has the creatures' statistics." The player's agency begins and ends at selecting one of the packages provided, they don't get to customize.

[Mara]

For emphasis: "Choose one of the following options" + "The DM has the creatures' statistics." The player's agency begins and ends at selecting one of the packages provided, they don't get to customize.

You are free to run out that way. It's wrong and overly aggressive DMing, but if your players can't handle that then they can just find a new table.

[Vogonjeltz]

You are free to run out that way. It's wrong and overly aggressive DMing, but if your players can't handle that then they can just find a new table.

Prove your position. Provide the exact quote from that spell of the character being allowed to choose to summon a specific creature, and not the generic package. If you are truly correct, there would be evidence (there isn't).

You're wrong and have no proof, the correct answer is to do what is written in the spell, not what you really really really want to be true.

[SharkForce]

Prove your position. Provide the exact quote from that spell of the character being allowed to choose to summon a specific creature, and not the generic package. If you are truly correct, there would be evidence (there isn't).

You're wrong and have no proof, the correct answer is to do what is written in the spell, not what you really really really want to be true.

but on the flip side, if the only thing that matters is what is written in the spell, it doesn't say *anyone* chooses the monster. merely that the DM has their stats.

[Shaofoo]

but on the flip side, if the only thing that matters is what is written in the spell, it doesn't say *anyone* chooses the monster. merely that the DM has their stats.

But if the DM has the stats then the DM has full control over how the monster appears then since he can modify stats as he sees fit, only limited to the chasis so to speak.

You could summon 8 Pixies but those Pixies might be lacking Polymorph instead for another spell because the DM thinks that it would be more thematic to use another spell. You can't call him out on it since as a player you can't force the DM to follow the MM by the letter.

[MaxWilson]

Re: Polymorph, if anyone in this thread has already mentioned using it to pit monsters against each other, I overlooked it. Polymorph that Black Pudding into a mouse, then toss it at the feet of the Iron Golem and release the spell. Voila! One dead Iron Golem and a whole bunch of Black Puddings, who can all be killed with a single Fireball spell when you're done.

Actually, uh, that's from Sage Advice.

...yeah, it kinda sucks for other Conjure spells.

Not so much. DM may make a random table or choose as appropriate for the environment, but the bottom line is there's no bad choice for most conjuring spells. If you Conjure Animals and get eight draft horses, that's still great.

At my table, because Conjure Animals is explicit about them being spirits shaped into animal form and not real animals, Conjure Animals lets the caster request specific animal forms. Likewise at my table, Conjure Minor Elementals is like Conjure Elemental: you can control what you get by choosing where to cast it, so if you want mud mephits you hose the ground down with water first before casting and if you want smoke mephits you light a bonfire. I haven't had to come up with a good one for Conjure Woodland Creatures but since you are conjuring real creatures I'd probably come up with a random table for specifying what is close by in Nevernever terms. In addition, I'd boost the CR of pixies to CR 2.

[Mara]

But if the DM has the stats then the DM has full control over how the monster appears then since he can modify stats as he sees fit, only limited to the chasis so to speak.

Or it means the DM has the MM. Also if we are being real pedantic, the spell says the DM has the stats not that she makes up the stats.

Maybe 8 pixies just isn't an issue like people assume it is. The polymorphed druid is one failed concentration check from the whole party losing the buff. If the pixies are near the combat then they are basically one hit away from ending polymorph.

[Shaofoo]

Or it means the DM has the MM. Also if we are being real pedantic, the spell says the DM has the stats not that she makes up the stats.

The DM has the MM or he might not, if you recall there was a time when the only book available was the PHB, the MM came out later.

And if we are being really pedantic please tell me where does the spell says that we can cross reference these statistics? Where is the point of reference, you can't say the MM because the spell doesn't reference that book. By your logic all summons should fail because there is no stats to reference because the spell fails to disclose any relevant information for the DM to give. There are no fey to summon.

Also the DM always makes up the stats, the DM makes up everything because it is the DM's world, the players are along for the ride.

Maybe 8 pixies just isn't an issue like people assume it is. The polymorphed druid is one failed concentration check from the whole party losing the buff. If the pixies are near the combat then they are basically one hit away from ending polymorph.

95% of all cries of imbalance and brokeness can be safely ignored. Most people use theorycrafting when it comes to these claims yet ignore huge swaths of the game itself and even blatantly ignore key parts in the game that might weaken their stance.

[SharkForce]

well, no, 8 pixies really is a problem. set them beside other CR 1/4 creatures and they clearly don't belong there, not just when they're summoned, but in general. when you use the CR calculation system in the DMG, they actually come out to just over CR 1 assuming the +2 is supposed to be +2 categories instead of +2 CR (if it's supposed to be an actual increase in CR, iirc they come out to something silly like CR 3).

so yeah, 8 pixies is a problem. no, it isn't an unbeatable strategy. but it is very definitely a stronger strategy than most other uses for the spell. it isn't nearly as bad if you can only get 2 pixies though.

[Vogonjeltz]

well, no, 8 pixies really is a problem. set them beside other CR 1/4 creatures and they clearly don't belong there, not just when they're summoned, but in general. when you use the CR calculation system in the DMG, they actually come out to just over CR 1 assuming the +2 is supposed to be +2 categories instead of +2 CR (if it's supposed to be an actual increase in CR, iirc they come out to something silly like CR 3).

so yeah, 8 pixies is a problem. no, it isn't an unbeatable strategy. but it is very definitely a stronger strategy than most other uses for the spell. it isn't nearly as bad if you can only get 2 pixies though.

Don't they only have 1 hit point? AoE would, regardless of saves, kill them instantly.

Anyway, player only gets to select a package, so it's a moot point unless your DM is the kind who likes messing with the group to see what happens.

[SharkForce]

Don't they only have 1 hit point? AoE would, regardless of saves, kill them instantly.

Anyway, player only gets to select a package, so it's a moot point unless your DM is the kind who likes messing with the group to see what happens.

do you have an AoE available in every fight? are the pixies even at the fight (they don't need to be to turn the entire party into t-rexes or giant apes)? if so, do the enemies even know their location (they're tiny flying creatures with decent stealth). are the pixies grouped tightly enough together that a single AoE can even hit them all?

pixies have a lot of defences beyond just their hit points. yes, if they get hit, they're gone. thing is, it isn't that easy to hit a pixie. their defensive CR is actually something around 2 as i recall because of all their defensive abilities.

[Shojiteru]

I remember that the dm picks the stats only. Says nothing about who picks. You can pick what you want to summon then the dm gives you the stats because he is the library. I dont bring my own book.

If my dm forced my spells to suck because he wants to underpower me then he is an ahole. The book gives the dm power and the dm goal is for player fun. If the player wants to end an encounter in 1 round because that would be most fun,LET THEM. THIS IS THEIR GAME TOO.

Dms need to remembrr to think of what the players want. If what they want seems powerful, up the difficulty. Use ingame mechanica to balance, not making the game lame so everything sucks so level 20s have trouble with 1 kobald.

Polymorph is fine. Kick a rabbit lff the cliff and after he loees hp, no instant death just him revert to original form then rest damage gets transferree. You would get more damage fast from levitate. Less time to get co centration broken and does the same thing.

If you have a problem with your players having fun and enjoying themselves and gou seek to punish them because they are being creative, why dont you all go not play a game that lets players do what they want?

The game is players > Dm >book. Players want to have fun. Dm makes it fun using the book as a guide. Players dont always do what is in the book so the dm is forced to be creative and think on the spot. If they do powergaming and you wanted to roleplay, either find a new group or adapt and make it a power game.

If it was a problem, it should have been changed in playtest. Although they missed elemental monks and the broken beserker and wild mage since they are so horrible.