50th level campaign

[NichG]

Just a question...

What power, would give them that ability? I havent seent that feat anywhere?

If they could just take a single power that just does it, it wouldn't be a level-appropriate challenge anymore.

[dascarletm]

Yeah, that sort of thing you accomplish over a/some session(s). I can see the fighter beating criting reality into place, etc.

[Melcar]

ok i am currently running a level 50 campaign ecl is around 75 ish the players include a human/paragon fighter 20/artificer 20/ disciple of disapater; a human/paragon druid 30/ master of many' forms 10/ wizard 10; a rakshasa/paragon 20rhd/ 5 cleric/ 20 mystic theurge; and the last character is a advanced hellfire wyrm paragon 50rhd. im looking for any monsters that can give this type of party a challenge. i banned epic spell casting so it makes it a bit easier but the lowest ac is the fighter with a ac 139 and highest is 227 so any ideas would be very beneficial.

Is there any chance, we could have a rundown of their feats? I would like to know their powers for a number of reasons.

1. To be able to give better help.

2. Because I wonder how any not-homebrew ability is goin to be destroying universes, as everyone seems to indicating. I have been looking through ELH and numerous 3rd party books, and besides epic magic, or homebrew, I have yet to see these universe "i challenge the lady of pain" characters...

[noob]

And suddenly using major creation for creating infinitely densely packed electrons(100% valid)?

[GungHo]

I think you should have Andre the Giant and the Ultimate Warrior do a run in and hit them all with steel folding chairs (100d10) while Steve Austin cuts a vicious promo (thereby giving them all a -100 to hit and save penalty).

Also, I don't know why that one guy is a Disciple of Dispater. You'd think at 50th level, Dispater would be a Disciple of him.

[Melcar]

[...]I don't know why that one guy is a Disciple of Dispater. You'd think at 50th level, Dispater would be a Disciple of him.

This is really funny!

[martixy]

And suddenly using major creation for creating infinitely densely packed electrons(100% valid)?

Pure electron soup is too undefined by the parameters of the spell, so we can't have that.
The best(as in heaviest) you could do is some heavy Rare Metal. Plutonium seems like a good candidate(mostly cuz it was easy to find how much 50 cu ft. of the stuff weights - 61,854 lb.).

It would still make a good weapon, just probably not for the reasons you think...

It would be completely useless as a projectile for one. Its Schwarzschild radius(that is, effective volume, capable of dealing damage) would be 4.167×10^-23 m, which is 12 orders of magnitude smaller than the radius of a hydrogen atom.

And that's disregarding the amount of force it would take to collapse a mass like that.

But... on the other hand if you do succeed in overcoming that small problem /s, it would evaporate in 1.86 ms, which for that specific period of time results in a combined energy output 4.53×10²³ W, which is about a thousandth of the energy output of the Sun, or equivalent to ~182 gigatons of TNT, or ~3638 times more powerful than the largest atomic bomb we've ever detonated, though still a few magnitudes lower than the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs^[1].

Still, that makes it a pretty decent weapon - it's liable to completely vaporize anything in the vicinity. Though the short fuse makes escaping its deployment really tricky.

[Melcar]

Pure electron soup is too undefined by the parameters of the spell, so we can't have that.
The best(as in heaviest) you could do is some heavy Rare Metal. Plutonium seems like a good candidate(mostly cuz it was easy to find how much 50 cu ft. of the stuff weights - 61,854 lb.).

It would still make a good weapon, just probably not for the reasons you think...

It would be completely useless as a projectile for one. Its Schwarzschild radius(that is, effective volume, capable of dealing damage) would be 4.167×10^-23 m, which is 12 orders of magnitude smaller than the radius of a hydrogen atom.

And that's disregarding the amount of force it would take to collapse a mass like that.

But... on the other hand if you do succeed in overcoming that small problem /s, it would evaporate in 1.86 ms, which for that specific period of time results in a combined energy output 4.53×10²³ W, which is about a thousandth of the energy output of the Sun, or equivalent to ~182 gigatons of TNT, or ~3638 times more powerful than the largest atomic bomb we've ever detonated, though still a few magnitudes lower than the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs^[1].

Still, that makes it a pretty decent weapon - it's liable to completely vaporize anything in the vicinity. Though the short fuse makes escaping its deployment really tricky.

Could't one just get antimatter version of the metal? Lets say Iridium? When that would anihilate it would be quite the amount of damage. The amount from True Creation: "You create a nonmagical, unattended object of any sort of matter" would be at level 50 overwhelming!

[SangoProduction]

Could't one just get antimatter version of the metal? Lets say Iridium? When that would anihilate it would be quite the amount of damage. The amount from True Creation: "You create a nonmagical, unattended object of any sort of matter" would be at level 50 overwhelming!

"Any sort of matter", so it restricts it to matter. But...since the definition is so vague, you could saimply say "create a black hole"...then kill cat girls for trying to bring science in to D&D.

[martixy]

Could't one just get antimatter version of the metal? Lets say Iridium? When that would anihilate it would be quite the amount of damage. The amount from True Creation: "You create a nonmagical, unattended object of any sort of matter" would be at level 50 overwhelming!

Well, with true creation all bets are off. You could also argue the definition of matter. And then simply say "I want to create 50 cu ft. of anti-neutron degenerate matter."(iridium is so banal).
But that's way too fringe for me. I have no idea if neutron degenerate matter has a lower limit or what it might be. It might be higher than our volume, but what the results of that would be, I haven't the foggiest(maybe explode?).
In any case, by weight it would ~5.664 × 10^17 kg.
By mass that's probably your best bet. Though I have no idea if neutrons are the best choice of matter - I'm not a nuclear physicist, so I don't really know how neutrons annihilate exactly(different types of matter annihilate differently and not always to high-energy photons).

[Melcar]

"Any sort of matter", so it restricts it to matter. But...since the definition is so vague, you could saimply say "create a black hole"...then kill cat girls for trying to bring science in to D&D.

Hmm... AFAIK... isnt a black hole a state of matter, unlike jost matter. Any sort of matter would does not entail the state where the matter have been compresed below its swartschild radius... I kind of know the math, but not really, but I understand the fundamentals of the calculations. Anyways... i would asume antimatter e.g. opposite charged matter was more likely than matter infinitly densly compressed? No?

[martixy]

Hmm... AFAIK... isnt a black hole a state of matter, unlike jost matter. Any sort of matter would does not entail the state where the matter have been compresed below its swartschild radius... I kind of know the math, but not really, but I understand the fundamentals of the calculations. Anyways... i would asume antimatter e.g. opposite charged matter was more likely than matter infinitly densly compressed? No?

Well... You could say it is. No one really knows what's going on in there.
But ah...
"antimatter e.g. opposite charged matter"
Wut?
A does not follow B.

[Melcar]

Well... You could say it is. No one really knows what's going on in there.
But ah...
"antimatter e.g. opposite charged matter"
Wut?
A does not follow B.

"In particle physics, antimatter is material composed of antiparticles, which have the same mass as particles of ordinary matter but opposite charges"

That was from Wiki, which as a master student in political science is not a valid source, but Im not s physisist..

[SangoProduction]

Hmm... AFAIK... isnt a black hole a state of matter, unlike jost matter. Any sort of matter would does not entail the state where the matter have been compresed below its swartschild radius... I kind of know the math, but not really, but I understand the fundamentals of the calculations. Anyways... i would asume antimatter e.g. opposite charged matter was more likely than matter infinitly densly compressed? No?

It does not need to be infinitely densely compressed....to start. All you'd need is to have matter close enough together that gravity can overpower nuclear forces that make matter 99.999% empty space. It wouldn't even need to be very massive to be self-sustaining once it reached this point. Even Ant-Man, in the movie, would create a black hole sufficient enough to wipe the Earth off the face of the....solar system, if the movie kept to that bit of science.
Most conjuration is limited by the inherent density of what the summon, but aside from that, density is never a constraint I saw, only mass and volume. And True Creation, from what I saw, has no constraint on what type of matter you summon - and IRL at least, there is matter that can form a black hole.

[martixy]

"In particle physics, antimatter is material composed of antiparticles, which have the same mass as particles of ordinary matter but opposite charges"

That was from Wiki, which as a master student in political science is not a valid source, but Im not s physisist..

You seem to be suffering from a major flaw in your reasoning.
If A then B does not imply the opposite.

[nedz]

At level 50 though everyone should have

• Evasion
• Only fail Reflex saves on a 1
• At least 1 re-roll

Improved Evasion would, of course, be completely useless.

[Melcar]

It does not need to be infinitely densely compressed....to start. All you'd need is to have matter close enough together that gravity can overpower nuclear forces that make matter 99.999% empty space. It wouldn't even need to be very massive to be self-sustaining once it reached this point.

Indeed... if not for Hawking Radiation...

Even Ant-Man, in the movie, would create a black hole sufficient enough to wipe the Earth off the face of the....solar system, if the movie kept to that bit of science.

How and why?

Most conjuration is limited by the inherent density of what the summon, but aside from that, density is never a constraint I saw, only mass and volume. And True Creation, from what I saw, has no constraint on what type of matter you summon - and IRL at least, there is matter that can form a black hole

There is no known element that in and of itself creates a black hole... a black hole is, just as you said when matter is compressed beyong its Swartschild radius so that that gravity wins over the nucleus forces.

I would say, that indeed true creation is vague... but I personally would not say, that it could create black holes... IMHO!

[Zrak]

yes they in 1 combat took out over 100 deities because the fighter crits from 8-20 due to disciple of disapater im used to large combat situations there is over 300 deities not including homebrew.

If this is really the case, you're gratuitously underplaying the deities.

[Platymus Pus]

Just a question...

What power, would give them that ability? I havent seent that feat anywhere?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm
pretty sure it's doable enough at level 50 for a small universe at least. Casting time should be a week.

[Judge_Worm]

At level 50, combat'system lost the luster it once held. I was involved in an epic campaign that went into the 40's before we decided levels had become meaningless. Our party composition was a fighter/(other classes I forgot) who at the last session of that game had conquered several hundred layers of the Abyss and destroyed billions of demons. The party paladin ascended to godhood. The cleric disavowed the gods after he surpassed his own (which was a lesser god), and became an antideity giving divine magic to Urpriests and creating an Ur-temple in sigil. I (the party sorcerer and face) was gallivanting around in Baator and actually helped cement the Primus-Asmodean(strangely having little to do with Primus or any other Modron, but rather the Formians and Inevitables) alliance which lead to the successful conquest of Ysgard, and a sizable chunk of the Beastlands (Elysium stood strong), and turned the Blood War back into the War of Law and Chaos.

Bottomline is we were all doing crazy stuff, very little of it regular combat.

And suddenly using major creation for creating infinitely densely packed electrons(100% valid)?

50²' of element deciescentenamilium (1000000). It should almost definitely collapse under its own weight, and you don't have to be too oddly specific.

[Melcar]

At level 50, combat'system lost the luster it once held. I was involved in an epic campaign that went into the 40's before we decided levels had become meaningless. Our party composition was a fighter/(other classes I forgot) who at the last session of that game had conquered several hundred layers of the Abyss and destroyed billions of demons. The party paladin ascended to godhood. The cleric disavowed the gods after he surpassed his own (which was a lesser god), and became an antideity giving divine magic to Urpriests and creating an Ur-temple in sigil. I (the party sorcerer and face) was gallivanting around in Baator and actually helped cement the Primus-Asmodean(strangely having little to do with Primus or any other Modron, but rather the Formians and Inevitables) alliance which lead to the successful conquest of Ysgard, and a sizable chunk of the Beastlands (Elysium stood strong), and turned the Blood War back into the War of Law and Chaos.

Bottomline is we were all doing crazy stuff, very little of it regular combat.





50²' of element deciescentenamilium (1000000). It should almost definitely collapse under its own weight, and you don't have to be too oddly specific.

Did you actually roll all those dice... because billions of demons is millions of natural 20s... so it meas tens of thousands od damage dealt!!!

[Judge_Worm]

Did you actually roll all those dice... because billions of demons is millions of natural 20s... so it meas tens of thousands od damage dealt!!!

Of course not. At a certain point in epic play dice become almost irrelevant. Although I do believe our dm did make him combat Balor swarms and Demon Lords the old fashioned way, my memory's hazy it has been quite a while since that game.

[Garktz]

Summon tippy, ask him for a "how to beat them with a lvl 20 wizard"

I mean, just look at "the bird of prey" build he made, then think about what could be done with 30 more levels...

You know, tippy equals win

[RedMage125]

I thought you couldn't crit things with Divine Rank?

You also can't KILL things w/ Divine Rank unless you ALSO have Divine Rank, as I recall. Not permanently, anyway.

[Krobar]

You just aren't being mean enough. 50th level characters don't beat greater deities unless you LET THEM.

[Barbarian Horde]

Really 50th level? Wow so pretty much whom ever goes first. PC Wizard goes first party wins. Enemy wizard goes first NPC win. Not gonna lie that sounds horribly boring.

[TheifofZ]

At 10th-15th level, the party is saving the world. At 20th, it's worlds, plural.
By 30th level, whole universes.
Once you hit 40th level, combat stops being a thing because the party is done. There's really not much more that can threaten them aside from parallel versions of themselves.
Get to 50th level, and either start having the party fighting for all of reality against monsters that literally consume galaxies as a light snack, or consider having those characters be retired as divinities and roll up new ones.
Or reincarnate, either one.

[Melcar]

You also can't KILL things w/ Divine Rank unless you ALSO have Divine Rank, as I recall. Not permanently, anyway.

I believe that its only in FR, that that rule apply.

[Melcar]

At 10th-15th level, the party is saving the world. At 20th, it's worlds, plural.

What kind of DM did you play with? And with what level of optimization? 10-15... That gives the figther between 95- 145 hp. So I uesse you are taking down the Demon Lord and his 100.000 minions with a level 12 party? Riiiight...

By 30th level, whole universes.

So you are doing AO's job at this point???? I dont think so. Against even a greater god, what are you targeting the god with? Fireball? Finger of Death? Please show me, how you would beat stuff that can challenge Over dieties, the Pandorym or stuff like that at level 30?

Once you hit 40th level, combat stops being a thing because the party is done. There's really not much more that can threaten them aside from parallel versions of themselves.

So now after 3 more feats, two more stat points and 5 more baseattack and saves, now multiple overdeities is an option?

Get to 50th level, and either start having the party fighting for all of reality against monsters that literally consume galaxies as a light snack, or consider having those characters be retired as divinities and roll up new ones.
Or reincarnate, either one.

In my other threat about the Save DC of spells at level 55, it is evidently clear, that noone at that level are taking out the Lady of Pain, nor enything that could end her or the entire multiverse.

Stop this nonsense!

[NichG]

What kind of DM did you play with? And with what level of optimization? 10-15... That gives the figther between 95- 145 hp. So I uesse you are taking down the Demon Lord and his 100.000 minions with a level 12 party? Riiiight...

If you're personally fighting more than 20 of these minions over the course of your strategy against the demon lord, you're doing something wrong. Take down the demon lord directly, wield his enemies against him to neutralize the minor threats, use contacts to find the demon lord's weaknesses, desires, etc and exploit them.

Just punching your way through the entire opposition is something you can only do if you're over leveled/powered for the challenge.