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    Default Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    So, like anyone who's ever had spare time, I've read a fair amount of things with elves in 'em. I find them...I dunno, complicated. On the one hand, they're cool. On the other hand, they're often presented as an insufferably smug cross between androgynous hippies and someone's idea of a master race.

    So, elves: What makes them elves, and what shouldn't be done?
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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    Well, any thri-kreen or halfling can tell you they're delicious with ketchup.

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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    The key component of a traditional orcish kebab. Even dwarves have to agree that orcs know how to serve an elf.

    Yeah, I'm really not fond of standard elves, although I like incredibly powerful and rare elves split into light and dark varieties. The kind that change the course of whole continents.

    Before they walk across an orc and get cut down.

    EDIT: silly me, Ireland doesn't have orcs.
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2015-10-12 at 10:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    So, elves. They have it too good:

    No aging/Immortality
    Always attractive
    Gracious
    Nature-friendly, unlike us the nature destroying barbaric humans
    Did I mention their innate skill for magic? Magic which tends to be horribly powerful?

    Well, they tend to be physically weak though... Which only serves to turn them even more into pseudo nonviolent aristocrats.

    Also, their whole "preserve forests" philosophy and lowish physical strength somehow lead them to massively use bows and arrows.

    I just don't see, short of rewriting them completely, at which point you may as well call them Fae, how you can make sympathetic elves. Or more accurately, how you can make elvish traits sympathetic. The few nice elven characters we had were good characters despite being elves, and often their elvish traits were not accentuated.

    I think the closest anyone got to a sympathetic elvish race was Andrzej Sapkowski in the very early Witcher novels, when they were just disjointed short stories and the elves were that kind of broken yet beautiful people whose race was utterly doomed, there was nothing nobody could ever do about it, they knew it, and they just wandered in and out of stories, often drawn in by beauty of some kind.

    ...And then... Well, let's just say that they didn't remain sympathetic for that long.
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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    I think the take-away from all the above posts is that everyone hates arrogant, holier-than-thou Mary Sues. In most RPG canons, these are 'racial traits' shared by most or all elves. Perhaps players shouldn't be allowed to play elves? Because if they want to be compelling, sympathetic characters with that 'relatable' 'humanity' that everyone loves, they've basically got to abandon the core of what it means to be an elf.

    ...Although, in my experience, people do that by default. I can't really bring to mind any elf PCs in games I've played or watched who actually behaved like elves.
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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    DON'T make them imperialist Nazi-elves. It's been done to death in recent years (seriously, in the World-Building section of the forum, I see this interpretation of elves more often than not), and there's no point in calling them elves if you're going to change the core aspects of the race.

    DON'T make them underachievers compared with humans, with the "Humans have such short lives, it gives them an immense drive to achieve" excuse. Have you ever heard the phrase "Eat drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we may die?" Having a short life excuses lack of planning and investment. Having a long life to plan for makes it more important to plan ahead and set yourself up for the long haul.

    DO show that your elves aren't perfect. They've made mistakes, sometimes innocent, sometimes not. If it seems like they've made fewer mistakes, it's probably because they've had more time to try to fix them.

    DO cut back on the holier-than-thou crap. It's really annoying, and it's 90% of the reason why there's a backlash against elves.

    DO show cultural differences between different (biologically identical) groups of elves. This goes for dwarves, halflings, and goblins as well. Since an elf is capable of both imitation and innovation, as well as cultural learning, it stands to reason that differences in culture would develop between different elven populations.

    DO be aware of the downsides of the "elven way of life." Not ever mining or clearing trees has serious impacts on a society's productive capacity. If the elves have a 10,000-strong army clad in shining armor and armed with swords, they either do mine and clear trees, and you just don't see them do it, or they have a fantastic long-term storage facility to keep all those arms in serviceable condition for hundreds upon hundreds of years.


    @Alberic: Lots of forest-living cultures make use of bows and arrows (although many of the best bowmaking and archery traditions come from more open areas). The strength thing is often a problem, though. A realistic interpretation would be that while the bow is traditional for the elves, for hunting and the like, they aren't actually particularly good with them, compared with other cultures that use bows. Or maybe the elves, Constitution penalties or no, have a lot stronger back muscles than people give them credit for. In any case, it makes more sense than dwarves, who almost exclusively wield weapons that are ineffective for their size and typical environment (no wonder their halls are always getting overrun by something or another!).
    Last edited by VoxRationis; 2015-10-12 at 10:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    I think of elves as agile dexterous people with low Con, who're good at agile dexterous stuff, and happen to have pointy ears.

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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    I think of elves as agile dexterous people with low Con, who're good at agile dexterous stuff, and happen to have pointy ears.
    My thoughts as well. Anything else about them comes as a result of hundreds of years of life rather than being an inherent trait of elves.
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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    I think of elves as agile dexterous people with low Con, who're good at agile dexterous stuff, and happen to have pointy ears.
    I agree. Well, maybe with a dash of kidnapping and magic.

    Which is why I find the don't of not making them imperialist or racially motivated somewhat strange. It might be done over and over, but not all groups have seen it (I haven't for starters) and there is nothing wrong with cliches, just depends on how you use them. Given that many players (And some authors) use the elven mindset to either turn a blind eye to the suffering or others or to try to get those pesky two-legged vermin off their land, this seems like a pretty logical conclusion.

    So, if you do end up making them racist imperialist, make them interesting beyond that. One example, through not an RPG are the elves of Lorwyn who believe all other races are ugly and deserve death for it. They are obsessed with beauty, so it's a new take on things and explains why they are physically attractive. Because if you aren't, you get culled.
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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    DO show cultural differences between different (biologically identical) groups of elves. This goes for dwarves, halflings, and goblins as well. Since an elf is capable of both imitation and innovation, as well as cultural learning, it stands to reason that differences in culture would develop between different elven populations..
    Quoted for truth.

    When building a race for an rpg, you should look for what fantasy your allowing players to experience. What can they do as an elf that they couldn't do if the game was human only?

    Part of the problem with elves is the Tolkien-esq fantasy of elves is "people who are better." More magical, more in tune with nature, more moral, more wise, more beautiful, more powerful, immirtal, etc. Legolas drinks Gili under the table in one of the Peter Jackson LotR movies.

    DON'T do that. "The better than others" fantastic is toxic to a healthy tabletop rpg play environment, at least one where a group of elves and not elves can sit together as nominal equals.

    So you have to decide which elements you do want to keep.

    You can run with the nature thing, allowing elves intimate knowledge of trees and plants. Make them natural druid-types (pun very much intended).

    You could run with the magic thing, granting elves greater than normal ability to detect and identify magic. Pick how magic works in the setting and make them a strong fit.

    You could run with the beautiful thing, and grant them power of song and tale, perhaps wit no lands of their own. Make them a great fit for whatever bards are in setting.

    DON'T run with the morally better thing. It's simply offensive and inconsistent to say that X isn't as bad when race Y does it. Plus it's really anoying.
    Last edited by AceOfFools; 2015-10-12 at 12:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    Here's one thing you should definitely do, let them live according to artificial cultural rules that they themselves think are justified by nature, that contaminates their view of nature and make it impossible for them to do *science without letting go of their beliefs.



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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    The Elves that I know best come from the Warhammer franchise, in which they have a number of notable traits.

    To begin with, the Elven race is dying.
    Theirs was the second of the great Empires that spread across the world, preceding to the great human civilisations by tens of thousands of years. Unfortunately, their great civil war also precedes the humans by tens of thousands of years. While it's a long and convoluted story, the broad gist of it is that there was a dispute over the line of succession to the Throne and the race split into three - the High Elves, who inhabit the traditional Elven homeland and still claim ownership of the Imperial bloodline; the Dark Elves who supported the failed usurper and were forced to flee to the cold and hostile realm of Naggaroth; and the Wood Elves who, tired of the ongoing political strife and violent clashes, left to found a Lothlorien-style one-with-nature home in the forest of Athel Loren.

    The High Elves are the holier-than-thou jerks that everyone tends to think of. Dark Elves are essentially Drow, sadistic and bloodthirsty. Wood Elves are generally peaceful, though highly isolationist and xenophobic.
    Each of these attitudes are, broadly speaking, coping mechanisms for the deeply ingrained knowledge that their race is in the twilight of it's existence. Their greatest victories are millenia in the past, and with the energetic rise of the human Empire and the onslaught of the Forces of Darkness there is no chance that they will eve rappraoch anything like recovery.
    The High Elves sneer and act imperious, hiding their own insecurity behind a false aura of mysticism while human prodigies begin to encroach on their mastery of magic and ancient secrets. The Dark Elves raid, pillage and murder as much out of spite as necessity, unable to match the Orcs in number or brutality. The Wood Elves are in hiding - they have no great play for the End Times, they just want to bury their heads in the sand and hope that the badness will pass them by.

    In all cases, their arrogance - the assumed knowledge that their way is the only one which will succeed where the others are doomed - makes them inflexible and unable to change from the same futile path ahead. Elves are "perfect".... But only in their own minds' eye.

    The other thing about Warhammer Elves is that, while they are beautiful, it's only in a shallow and superficial way. Even the evil ones are tall, lithe and glamorous. They have wide eyes, high cheek bones, luxuriant hair and flawless skin; everything that a human aristocrat wants to be.

    But ever so, to a human they are.... wrong. Their skeletal frames are too long, thin and wiry. Their expressions don't always equate with a human emotion - presuming that they are even capable of human emotion. They move with grace, yet it's not the careful poise of a dancer but the alien smoothness of something otherworldly. They exist squarely in the realm of the uncanny valley, appearing similar to humans but with wide gulfs caused by the small differences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alberic Strein View Post
    I think the closest anyone got to a sympathetic elvish race was Andrzej Sapkowski in the very early Witcher novels, when they were just disjointed short stories and the elves were that kind of broken yet beautiful people whose race was utterly doomed, there was nothing nobody could ever do about it, they knew it, and they just wandered in and out of stories, often drawn in by beauty of some kind.

    ...And then... Well, let's just say that they didn't remain sympathetic for that long.
    I really like what Andrzej Sapkowski had done to explain part of why such a long-lived, prosperous race is in decline and disappearing.

    For those who don't know, he made it cannon in his world that only the younger elves can reproduce. He also combined that with a war under an extremely charismatic elven leader in a failed campaign, betrayed by allies if I remember correctly. Most of the younger elves perished in the war which leaves only the few survivors and those too young to have participated left to repopulate the race. Most of them are too angry and bitter to think of calmly repopulating, wanting the return of a powerful elvish nation. They are participating in gurella warfare tactics just to strike back and losing more of those precious few who can save the race. The ones who are not retaliating have given up their heritage for the security of the human cities where they are treated as second-class citizens, often subjected to human retaliation from the gurella warfare the other elves are involved in. The city elves have been ideologically abandoned for giving up on the elvish heritage and traditions.

    They still have many of the traits of sterotypical elves but gives a logical reason for their decline.

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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    I don't mind making "Elves are Better" Elves. I always make it clear that they're full of s***, though, and maybe they even know it, but they'll never admit it. I don't make them braggardly, though. It's all very matter of fact... like dealing with Vulcans. "You are a credit to humanity", "As this is surprisingly pleasant for a dwarf district", etc. Compliments are backhanded. Expectations are clearly both high and low. It's not to the level of "ok, I think you're morons, so I'm taking this magic away from you", but there is a sort of tact to the point of tactlessness on display. They do have friends though, and care for their friends. They're just repressed. You learn why when you follow them home to Elftown and it's clear that their parents and leaders treat them this way. Hell, the ones you meet on the road are the ones that escaped. The "civilized" elves mostly make faces at each other, and you can't even hear them chewing at dinner.

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    I've always thought Tolkien's depiction of elves and Faerie in The Smith of Wootton Major was utterly perfect. Brief as it is, it conveys the terrible power and grandeur of them and the world in which they dwell:

    ... for he soon became wise and understood that the marvels of Faery cannot be approached without danger, and that many of the Evils cannot be challenged without weapons of power too great for any mortal to wield. He remained a learner and explorer, not a warrior; and though in time he could have forged weapons that in his own world would have had power enough to become the matter of great tales and be worth a king's ransom, he knew that in Faery they would have been of small account. So among all the things that he made it is not remembered that he ever forged a sword or a spear or an arrow-head.

    In Faery at first he walked for the most part quietly among the lesser folk and the gentler creatures in the woods and meads of fair valleys, and by the bright waters in which at night strange stars shone and at dawn the gleaming peaks of far mountains were mirrored. Some of his briefer visits he spent looking only at one tree or one flower; but later in longer journeys he had seen things of both beauty and terror that he could not clearly remember nor report to his friends, though he knew that they dwelt deep in his heart. But some things he did not forget, and they remained in his mind as wonders and mysteries that he often recalled.

    When he first began to walk far without a guide he thought he would discover the further bounds of the land; but great mountains rose before him, and going by long ways round about them he came at last to a desolate shore. He stood beside the Sea of Windless Storm where the blue waves like snow-clad hills roll silently out of Unlight to the long strand, bearing the white ships that return from battles on the Dark Marches of which men know nothing. He saw a great ship cast high upon the land, and the waters fell back in foam without a sound. The elven mariners were tall and terrible; their swords shone and their spears glinted and a piercing light was in their eyes. Suddenly they lifted up their voices in a song of triumph, and his heart was shaken with fear, and he fell upon his face, and they passed over him and went away into the echoing hills.
    Of course, making them this powerful and alien virtually precludes using them as a playable race, though they would make excellent behind-the-scenes movers and players.

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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    The Elves that I know best come from the Warhammer franchise, in which they have a number of notable traits.

    To begin with, the Elven race is dying.
    Theirs was the second of the great Empires that spread across the world, preceding to the great human civilisations by tens of thousands of years. Unfortunately, their great civil war also precedes the humans by tens of thousands of years. While it's a long and convoluted story, the broad gist of it is that there was a dispute over the line of succession to the Throne and the race split into three - the High Elves, who inhabit the traditional Elven homeland and still claim ownership of the Imperial bloodline; the Dark Elves who supported the failed usurper and were forced to flee to the cold and hostile realm of Naggaroth; and the Wood Elves who, tired of the ongoing political strife and violent clashes, left to found a Lothlorien-style one-with-nature home in the forest of Athel Loren.

    The High Elves are the holier-than-thou jerks that everyone tends to think of. Dark Elves are essentially Drow, sadistic and bloodthirsty. Wood Elves are generally peaceful, though highly isolationist and xenophobic.
    Each of these attitudes are, broadly speaking, coping mechanisms for the deeply ingrained knowledge that their race is in the twilight of it's existence. Their greatest victories are millenia in the past, and with the energetic rise of the human Empire and the onslaught of the Forces of Darkness there is no chance that they will eve rappraoch anything like recovery.
    The High Elves sneer and act imperious, hiding their own insecurity behind a false aura of mysticism while human prodigies begin to encroach on their mastery of magic and ancient secrets. The Dark Elves raid, pillage and murder as much out of spite as necessity, unable to match the Orcs in number or brutality. The Wood Elves are in hiding - they have no great play for the End Times, they just want to bury their heads in the sand and hope that the badness will pass them by.

    In all cases, their arrogance - the assumed knowledge that their way is the only one which will succeed where the others are doomed - makes them inflexible and unable to change from the same futile path ahead. Elves are "perfect".... But only in their own minds' eye.

    The other thing about Warhammer Elves is that, while they are beautiful, it's only in a shallow and superficial way. Even the evil ones are tall, lithe and glamorous. They have wide eyes, high cheek bones, luxuriant hair and flawless skin; everything that a human aristocrat wants to be.

    But ever so, to a human they are.... wrong. Their skeletal frames are too long, thin and wiry. Their expressions don't always equate with a human emotion - presuming that they are even capable of human emotion. They move with grace, yet it's not the careful poise of a dancer but the alien smoothness of something otherworldly. They exist squarely in the realm of the uncanny valley, appearing similar to humans but with wide gulfs caused by the small differences.
    Yet another reason why getting rid of the Old World was a bad idea (along with the fact that the Empire was less than 100 years away from basically winning against Chaos, I've mentioned it a couple of times on this forum but one of my friends has a GURPS setting based on this).

    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo View Post
    I don't mind making "Elves are Better" Elves. I always make it clear that they're full of s***, though, and maybe they even know it, but they'll never admit it. I don't make them braggardly, though. It's all very matter of fact... like dealing with Vulcans. "You are a credit to humanity", "As this is surprisingly pleasant for a dwarf district", etc. Compliments are backhanded. Expectations are clearly both high and low. It's not to the level of "ok, I think you're morons, so I'm taking this magic away from you", but there is a sort of tact to the point of tactlessness on display. They do have friends though, and care for their friends. They're just repressed. You learn why when you follow them home to Elftown and it's clear that their parents and leaders treat them this way. Hell, the ones you meet on the road are the ones that escaped. The "civilized" elves mostly make faces at each other, and you can't even hear them chewing at dinner.
    It actually sounds rather good. Next thing you know the dwarf ran away from home because he didn't want to spend all his time working for glorious mother clan*.

    * In seriousness, at some point I plan to do actual research and write up a dwarf culture based on Russia, but so far my notes consist of 'ruler is named after Caesar'.
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    I think the Lord of the Ringsy type of superior-to-thou, holier-than-thou, dying-race type of elf is fine. There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with it... in the right context.

    Those types of elves give players a sense of the wonder and mysticism of a bygone era that, once dead, can never be revisited. Sometimes that is appropriate, and can help make a great campaign hook. For example, if the PCs have to protect one of the last elven enclaves from something evil that seeks to destroy it, the status of elves as something dying and beautiful will give an emotional motivation. If the players are familiarized with a beautiful, mystical elven culture, and then discover an evil, rogue elf that uses his great powers to perverse ends, the height and majesty of elven culture further emphasizes the horror of an evil elf. Portrayals of elves in this vein only fail to work in RPG systems (like DnD in particular) that ends up making the wondrous mundane, and so rob the mysticism from everything.

    As well, some players want to be from a superior-to-thou, holier-than-thou dying race. There's nothing wrong that aside from if you suspect that it may be a product of a player holding... racially insensitive views... in the real world. In any case, this doesn't mean your player elf must be better at everything than everyone all the time. A sense of scale would help here, if you say that the elf PC is an average or above-average member of the race while human PCs are true heroes among humanity. Look at Lord of the Rings - elves there are mystical, magical supermen, but Legolas is more or less a comic relief character alongside Gimli and does not overshadow Aragorn or the other fighting members of the fellowship.
    It always amazes me how often people on forums would rather accuse you of misreading their posts with malice than re-explain their ideas with clarity.

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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    I like to use afroakuma's So You Want to Play an Elf when thinking about elves in general.
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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    Whenever I think about playing an elf, I don't. Can't stand the stereotypical elf. Though I have seen elves with a twist before, I seem to recall some version that put them as death-obsessed necromancers....
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    Quote Originally Posted by AceOfFools View Post
    DON'T run with the morally better thing. It's simply offensive and inconsistent to say that X isn't as bad when race Y does it. Plus it's really anoying.
    But if the elves only think they're morally better, and the PCs get to smack them upside the head...

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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    But if the elves only think they're morally better, and the PCs get to smack them upside the head...
    Screw You, Elves! exists for reasons.
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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    I rather like the suped up Tolkein style Elf. The big thing is that elves are fantastically rare in most settings, so warfare is a crapshoot. Winning a battle frequently deals more permanent damage to an elven society then to the losing side, so they have to rely on perfect victories or avoiding war at all costs to survive.
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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    But if the elves only think they're morally better, and the PCs get to smack them upside the head...
    That's... not what I call a good solution for a worldbuilder/game designer who wants to include playable elves.

    If a player wants to play "the morally better", and you present them with an option that claims to be that, they will be extremely frustrated when it's not (I speak from experience).

    "Elves as hypocrites" as a design elements basically serves to say "elf fanboys arent welcome here." It can work in a setting/game, but only among players who are sick of the stereotype of "elves as better."

    Since such players are unlikely to want to play elves.

    I'll also throw out that if you go with "elves as hypocrites," you are actually following my advice, as they aren't morally better. :-)
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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    I think there's also the 'everybody plays an elf' problem (which is why, if I run Planescape, it'll be planars only). I've seen parties which were more than 50% elven or half elven (at one point my human fighter was the only non-pointy ear). I don't actually dislike elves, I'm just sick of them.

    Which is why I think I like Dark Sun's elves, as I've never seen an elf played like that, it's normally all 'prettiness' and 'elf forest living is better' (bah, give me a dwarven cave with actual technology anyway, I'll help them create more devices). The idea of elves being indifferent to those left behind is great.
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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    [QUOTE=Wraith;19942532] the High Elves, who inhabit the traditional Elven homeland and still claim ownership of the Imperial bloodline; the Dark Elves who supported the failed usurper and were forced to flee to the cold and hostile realm of Naggaroth; and the Wood Elves who, tired of the ongoing political strife and violent clashes, left to found a Lothlorien-style one-with-nature home in the forest of Athel Loren.

    The High Elves are the holier-than-thou jerks that everyone tends to think of. Dark Elves are essentially Drow, sadistic and bloodthirsty. Wood Elves are generally peaceful, though highly isolationist and xenophobic.
    /QUOTE]

    There's the Sea Elves to, who live mainly on their ships and have the most contact with Humanity who they trade with extensively

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    Posted by Annonymous Wizard
    Yet another reason why getting rid of the Old World was a bad idea (along with the fact that the Empire was less than 100 years away from basically winning against Chaos, I've mentioned it a couple of times on this forum but one of my friends has a GURPS setting based on this).
    Sounds interesting. Any links ?
    Last edited by comicshorse; 2015-10-13 at 08:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    Sounds interesting. Any links ?
    No, I don't know how far along it is, if it appears online at some point I'll link it though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    DON'T make them imperialist Nazi-elves. It's been done to death in recent years (seriously, in the World-Building section of the forum, I see this interpretation of elves more often than not), and there's no point in calling them elves if you're going to change the core aspects of the race.
    Is that really even a "change" from a canon filled with sources like the Complete Book of Elves?

    Anyways, the issue with what I'm seeing posters refer to as "morally better" elves is that this is, in my experience, almost always an informed attribute in the elves of official D&D settings. The problem isn't that they're morally better, it's that the author or the elves say they're morally better while actually acting no better than anyone else in particular.

    For instance, if elves use guerilla tactics, we're told that that means they're quick and clever and bold. If goblins use guerilla tactics, we're told that that means they're malevolent and craven and underhanded. There's no moral superiority there... only double standards.

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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    I like how in Elder Scrolls the wood elves only eat meat and revere plants. Kind of like the Dark Sun halflings being cannibals.

    I also like Dark Sun elves.
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    Default Re: Elves: Dos n' Don'ts

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    No, I don't know how far along it is, if it appears online at some point I'll link it though.
    Please do, it sounds good,and its not like WFRP couldn't do with some good background (mutters darkly about 'Age of Sigmar' and wanders off)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hipho View Post
    Whenever I think about playing an elf, I don't. Can't stand the stereotypical elf. Though I have seen elves with a twist before, I seem to recall some version that put them as death-obsessed necromancers....
    That's Eberron's Aereni elves; they believe that even their lifetime is too short to fully appreciate living, so preserve their dead as "undying" positive-energy undead who keel over (again) if they leave their designated cities.

    Eberron also has the war-hungry Valenar; who keep fighting because their great heroic ancestors fought, and will fight you because you look like a good way to bring honour to the ancestor; and the city elves, who are either artists, spies, both, or fuller of *cough* than a constipated coprophage. Of course, even the gnomes and orcs are better people than the elves of Eberron.
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