Synthesists & you! (Summoner questions).

[CptPinkamena]

I suppose I should ask that everyone buckle in, because I may have more questions based on what I think up, and what replies I get; it only gets worse at 88 mph, ladies and gentleman!

Since I've already rolled my stats, let's try starting with those, out of six 3d6 rolls (five 3d6 rolls really, we were doing 1d20 by DM mistake and I got an 18 for free because I had to forgo a nat20), I have:

18, 16, 14, 12, 11, and 10.

Currently I'm trying to build a Summoner with the Synthesist archetype as a Half-Elf, with my stats being:

10 Strength.
12 Dexterity.
11 Constitution. (Kicking up to 12 at level 4).
16 Intelligence.
14 Wisdom.
20 Charisma. (Sinking the Half-Elf +2 any here).

My first nine levels will be taking advantage of the Elf (

Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.

) favored class bonus for Summoner, reducing the summoning time of the Eidolon by one round per level, with a minimum of one round. (By level nine it will only take one round to summon my Eidolon in response to banishment or dismissal, both of which allow SR AND a Willpower save).

Question 1:

Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature.

Does this mean I use my own Will Save against the Banishment or Dismissal spells?

Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected.

I assume this means I can use my classes saving throws against the banishment, "work normally" for what? Normally the Eidolon has a lower Will saving throw than the Summoner.

Question 1a: Normally the Eidolon is not affected by spells such as Protection against <Alignment>, does this change for a Synthesist? (I assume that Question 1 is "The Summoner uses his Will saving throw against banishing the Eidolon, and his own HD", and Question 1a is "Yes, the Synthesist cannot enter a Protection spell in opposition to their alignment even when their Eidolon normally could", any thoughts?)

Question 2: As many as 2 Hit Dice of creatures per caster level can be banished. (Banishment). Do my HD count against the Banishment check, or the Eidolon's? Are both combined? I'm assuming that as "the Eidolon and I are the same creature" that I use my stats when they are better than the Eidolon's, unless specifically stated otherwise. (Such as below).

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma).

He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist.

Question 3: Does the Synthesist qualify for feats (the Eidolon of a Synthesist does NOT receive feats or skill points - furthering my assumption that effects related to an Eidolon are based off the Summoner's own alignment and class values - notably entering a protected zone and saving throws against banishment) based on their Dexterity, Strength, and Constitution while fused with the Eidolon?

They can be fused indefinitely as long as the Summoner is conscious and not asleep (ergo, possibly longer than the adjustment for "temporary stats" from a belt of mighty constitution - the Summoner could stay awake 24 hours, even it'd be stupid for a caster to even consider it); my Summoner cannot possibly gain a simple feat like "Power Attack" to make use of - for example - the whopping 27 strength a large Eidolon would have. (Level 9 Summoner, 4-point evolution, 16 base + 8 for the Large evolution + 3 for Eidolon HD advancement).

I'm trying to go for natural attack spam involving use of the multi-attack feat, 1d6 of your-choice elemental-damage-to-natural-attacks, and the step up for being 'large' (1d4 to 1d6 and 1d6 to 1d8) to natural attacks that the Eidolon receives to (with their generous possibility for natural armor and 2-point ability score increase evolutions, as well as their d10 hit-die that functions as temporary hit-points while fused and can be magically healed with spells on the Summoner list) really dish out some pain as a casting-tank that still has a massive handful of Summon Monster ability uses to cover themselves with (and a nice handful of non-Eidolon-healing-related spells, including Greater Invisibility as a 3rd-level-spell) to potentially flee, nuke, or buff with.

Power attack is not specifically required, but is there anything I'm missing? Is this a bad idea?

With all that Charisma and the fact that the Summoner can't benefit from the Eldritch Heritage line of feats being used on Abyssal Bloodline to gain +2/4/6 to Strength after Improved Eldritch Heritage (Half-Elves start with the free Skill Focus feat required to easily choose any bloodline with Eldritch Heritage), which Bloodline would you choose? Arcane is a possibility...

Would this work better with a Halfling, given their natural Charisma? (Dexterity +2 and Strength -2 are still negated while fused to the Eidolon, as is the Halfing move speed... Although there's a trait to make their +1 luck bonus a +2, which might make up for it, despite losing Skill Focus).

More importantly, Halfings are small creatures, if the Halfing fuses with a medium Eidolon, do they lose their bonuses for being small? (I'd probably just fuse with the small Eidolon, yet how does one make a medium Eidolon a small Eidolon? There's not an evolution for it).

Halflings are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.

PS: How easily does a large creature go adventuring? (Unlike normal large creatures, an Eidolon has 10-foot reach listed in their large evolution, instead of just the standard 5-feet; totally worth it? This is on top of any other ranged increases - an Eidolon spends 1 evolution point to increase the range of 1 natural attack by 5-feet... You could legitimately threaten fifteen feet around you, like some sort of uber-Jedi).

...If I cannot use the Eidolon's Strength to qualify for feats, would any of you go Abyssal regardless, to ensure that I could pick combat feats, or spend all your feats on spell-casting?

What should I watch out for the DM throwing in my way, as far as attempts at breaking my Eidolon fusion? Keeping in mind that:

- Eidolon's gain natural armor, not helpful against touch spells (although their bonuses to dex as they level and their potential to increase their dex by evolution, AND they get improved evasion, and that their physical stats boost my 1 to 6 reflex save [3 to 8 if a Halfling with the +1 to luck bonuses trait])

- A Half-Elf can use the favored class bonus to summon back quickly unless the Eidolon dies, all Summoner's can heal their Eidolon through spells, as well as sacrifice their own health to keep the Eidolon summoned. (Which is good to avoid the 24 hour loss, to keep the Dex-bonus of the Eidolon to dodge if retreating, and to keep the Wing evolution that is basically a top-tier choice for fighting or fleeing).

- At seventh level the Eidolon can entangle with web as a ranged touch AC with a 50 foot range (10 increment beyond), and all escapes at all a -4 penalty; it can do this 8 times a day.

- At ninth level the Eidolon can select from Burrow (at half their move speed) through dirt, sand, clay, and earth at half their base speed. See in Darkness, allowing the Eidolon to see through all darkness, even magical.

- At 11 level the Eidolon can gain fast healing (1 to 5), at 13th it can cast dimension door (w/ 14 Charisma on the Eidolon), and at 15th it can become incorporeal (one round per summoner level).

- At summoner level 9 the Eidolon can have Spell Resistance equal to the summoner's level + 11 (50% spell failure chance, unless the enemy spellcaster has feats).

I'm not sure which feat to start with at first level, or how far the campaign will go... Can large characters at 8 to 14 feet even function that well? (Can the medium or small sized summoner choose their large Eidolon to be on the smaller side at 8-feet? How would one play the perceptions of being fused with a body that was larger than you, would it be odd?)

[DedWards]

This guide should help explain everything and help make your character so broken that everyone will be banned from playing synthesis:
http://zenithgames.blogspot.co.za/20...build.html?m=1

[grarrrg]

Many things about the Synthesist are open to interpretation, so I'll try to be clear about "solid ruling" and "maybe".

Question 1: Does this mean I use my own Will Save against the Banishment or Dismissal spells?

This one is kind of iffy.
I think the general consensus is that you use your own saves when "suited up".

Question 1a: Normally the Eidolon is not affected by spells such as Protection against <Alignment>, does this change for a Synthesist?

Nothing in the archetype says that "can enter Protection" changes, so you can still "ignore" Protection spells.

Do note that if you used the Summon Eidolon spell things would be different (although if you could/couldn't touch Protection gets iffy again, leaning towards "no").

Question 2: As many as 2 Hit Dice of creatures per caster level can be banished. (Banishment). Do my HD count against the Banishment check, or the Eidolon's? Are both combined? I'm assuming that as "the Eidolon and I are the same creature" that I use my stats when they are better than the Eidolon's, unless specifically stated otherwise. (Such as below).

I'd say you use your own HD, as for most intents and purposes your Eidolon doesn't really have HD (it just grants you temp HP equal to what it would have).
But an argument could be made that since the Eidolon is the one being banished that it would use its HD instead.

Question 3: Does the Synthesist qualify for feats ... based on their Dexterity, Strength, and Constitution while fused with the Eidolon?

Technically yes, you can "stay up all night" to bypass the "temporary ability score adjustment" thing, but do note than when not in Eidolon-form that the feats will stop working as you no longer meet the requirements.

really dish out some pain as a casting-tank that still has a massive handful of Summon Monster ability uses to cover themselves with

The wording is unclear on your intent, so a reminder that you cannot use your Summon Monster SLA while your Eidolon is out.

With all that Charisma and the fact that the Summoner can't benefit from the Eldritch Heritage line of feats being used on Abyssal Bloodline to gain +2/4/6 to Strength after Improved Eldritch Heritage

This is also up in the air.
Since the bonus is giving via Feat, and your Feats still function while wearing the Eidolon-suit, you should still be able to get the increased STR bonus.

Would this work better with a Halfling, given their natural Charisma? (Dexterity +2 and Strength -2 are still negated while fused to the Eidolon, as is the Halfing move speed... Although there's a trait to make their +1 luck bonus a +2, which might make up for it, despite losing Skill Focus).

More importantly, Halfings are small creatures, if the Halfing fuses with a medium Eidolon, do they lose their bonuses for being small? (I'd probably just fuse with the small Eidolon, yet how does one make a medium Eidolon a small Eidolon? There's not an evolution for it).

A Halfling wearing a Medium-Eidolon is Medium.
As for a Small Eidolon, that's covered in the "base form" section:
"Alternatively, any one of these base forms can be used to make a Small eidolon. If the eidolon is Small, it gains a +2 bonus to its Dexterity score. It also takes a –4 penalty to its Strength and a –2 penalty to its Constitution...." (blah blah, standard "small size modifiers", blah blah) "If this choice is made, the eidolon can be made Medium whenever the summoner can change the eidolon’s evolution pool (which causes it to lose these modifiers for being Small)."

PS: How easily does a large creature go adventuring? (Unlike normal large creatures, an Eidolon has 10-foot reach listed in their large evolution, instead of just the standard 5-feet; totally worth it? This is on top of any other ranged increases - an Eidolon spends 1 evolution point to increase the range of 1 natural attack by 5-feet... You could legitimately threaten fifteen feet around you, like some sort of uber-Jedi).

A Biped Eidolon has 10ft. reach when Large, other base forms do not gain any reach from Large.
If needed, you can keep your Eidolon Medium sized, Evolution Surge (normal or Greater) to temporarily gain the Large-Evolution.

Can the medium or small sized summoner choose their large Eidolon to be on the smaller side at 8-feet? How would one play the perceptions of being fused with a body that was larger than you, would it be odd?)

How your Eidolon looks is (almost) entirely up to you, so "Large on the small side" shouldn't be a problem.
As for "skewed perceptions", I'd say it's no different than if you were the target of an Enlarge/Reduce Person spell > no problems.
If you want to role-play size-perception issues, then that is up to you.

[meemaas]

The strength bonus from the abyssal bloodline is explicitly an inherent bonus, so just like stat bonuses from leveling and tomes, it would only apply to the caster form. Even though it's coming from a feat, it doesn't change the bonuses type.

[Snowbluff]

The strength bonus from the abyssal bloodline is explicitly an inherent bonus, so just like stat bonuses from leveling and tomes, it would only apply to the caster form. Even though it's coming from a feat, it doesn't change the bonuses type.

Nothing about it suggests it would work any differently than your Enhancement Bonus.

[ninjamaster1991]

I'll try not to repeat anything grarrrg said, but here are my answers:

My first nine levels will be taking advantage of the Elf () favored class bonus for Summoner, reducing the summoning time of the Eidolon by one round per level, with a minimum of one round. (By level nine it will only take one round to summon my Eidolon in response to banishment or dismissal, both of which allow SR AND a Willpower save).

You might want to look into the Eidolon Anchoring Harness - it lets your burn uses of your SLA (inaccessible while your Eidolon's up) to no-sell anything that would poof your suit, including 1 round of 0 temp HP or 1 round's worth of Dismissals.

Question 1: Does this mean I use my own Will Save against the Banishment or Dismissal spells? I assume this means I can use my classes saving throws against the banishment, "work normally" for what? Normally the Eidolon has a lower Will saving throw than the Summoner.

[...]

Question 2: As many as 2 Hit Dice of creatures per caster level can be banished. (Banishment). Do my HD count against the Banishment check, or the Eidolon's? Are both combined? I'm assuming that as "the Eidolon and I are the same creature" that I use my stats when they are better than the Eidolon's, unless specifically stated otherwise. (Such as below)

Those are harder to figure out, since neither are explicitly stated. However;

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution) ... gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points ... uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions.

The Synthesist gains only the things listed above. Saves and Hit Dice aren't on the list, so you keep them, but they're modified by your Eidolon's evolutions, physical ability scores, etc.

Would this work better with a Halfling, given their natural Charisma? (Dexterity +2 and Strength -2 are still negated while fused to the Eidolon, as is the Halfing move speed... Although there's a trait to make their +1 luck bonus a +2, which might make up for it, despite losing Skill Focus).

Halflings don't have any particular synergy with Synthesists beyond the Charisma boost (their FCB is +1 eidolon skill point), while Half-Elves can take the Elf or Half-Elf Favored Class Bonus (and both are very, very good). Furthermore, a lenient/unwary DM might rule that Half-Elves trance instead of sleep, and let the Eidolon suit stay up 24/7.

PS: How easily does a large creature go adventuring? (Unlike normal large creatures, an Eidolon has 10-foot reach listed in their large evolution, instead of just the standard 5-feet; totally worth it? This is on top of any other ranged increases - an Eidolon spends 1 evolution point to increase the range of 1 natural attack by 5-feet... You could legitimately threaten fifteen feet around you, like some sort of uber-Jedi).

Large creatures can squeeze into any space a Medium creature can walk through normally, so you shouldn't have serious mechanical problems until you get to Huge size (which I'd recommend just Evolution Surging in when you need it. Also, the Biped form is the only base form that gets a reach increase from Large size, but all of them benefit from Huge size, the Reach evolution, and Enlarge Person.

What should I watch out for the DM throwing in my way, as far as attempts at breaking my Eidolon fusion?

The most obvious things? Dismissal scrolls suddenly appearing out of thin air into your enemies' hands
Beyond that, a clever DM might use social consequences (Seeing the king looking like a Balor? That's totally a good idea!), physical limitations (Medium creatures can squeeze into Small areas, but Large ones ... can't.), or just plain dickery (anything that bypasses temp HP, poisons/drugs, etc.) to nullify your Eidolon suit before ambushing you.

[CptPinkamena]

This guide should help explain everything and help make your character so broken that everyone will be banned from playing synthesis:
http://zenithgames.blogspot.co.za/20...build.html?m=1

I'm not actually trying to broken, I'm trying to fill either the role of spell-caster or tank (per GM request) in a two-person party, where the other person is new to Pathfinder and is trying to be a ranged Rogue. (Ergo: perhaps a little bit of broken power is acceptable in order to make up for what I'm sensing is going to be clumsy attempts at sneak attack spam), without actually being predictable about it. (Magus).

Currently: Elf Fighter w/ Learned Duelist & high dex + weapon finesse, slashing grace, weapon focus. (Dex to damage, dex to hit, limits a medium creature to use of a 1d6 slashing light one-handed weapon with the off-hand empty). [Also grants at least +3 AC over the average full-plate fighter, but is unrelated to this thread].

Regardless I've basically got the gist of it! Most of a Synthesist is easily translatable from RAW and I just have to pitch the opposing views (as outlined in the replies) to the whimsical GM fiat. So thanks everyone!

Really I was thinking of going for unarmed damage with 11 points (Large evolution, Reach x7) to have 15-foot natural attack range, it seemed like fun roleplaying. ("Yo I have four arms, two tails, a bite attack, and wings; taste my evolved Dex score, SR, and +1d6 elemental damage per natural attack").



Basically I'm going for an exotic-species feel where the perception difference is definitely 'out-there' and eventually adjusted to.

I'm not entirely sure how I'll be building it, but thanks for your time ^^

[DedWards]

The last time I played a summoner, I used this thread for reference on what to take:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...inder-Summoner

Now, most of it assumes you're not playing a synthesis, but I can see the suggestions working with a synthesis, for the most part.

[grarrrg]

you shouldn't have serious mechanical problems until you get to Huge size (which I'd recommend just Evolution Surging in when you need it

You actually can't Evolution Surge to get Huge-Evolution.
"This spell cannot be used to grant an upgrade to an evolution that the eidolon already possesses."
Huge is an 'upgrade' of Large, so cannot be gotten through Evolution Surge.

Remember, you can still use Enlarge Person for a size boost, although it comes with decreased benefits compared to Large/Huge Evolutions.

Really I was thinking of going for unarmed damage with 11 points (Large evolution, Reach x7) to have 15-foot natural attack range, it seemed like fun roleplaying. ("Yo I have four arms, two tails, a bite attack, and wings; taste my evolved Dex score, SR, and +1d6 elemental damage per natural attack").

Sadly, you can only take the Reach Evolution once, ever.
It does NOT have the "can be taken multiple times" text.
Might I suggest the Lunge feat as a next-best alternative?

[CptPinkamena]

You actually can't Evolution Surge to get Huge-Evolution.
"This spell cannot be used to grant an upgrade to an evolution that the eidolon already possesses."
Huge is an 'upgrade' of Large, so cannot be gotten through Evolution Surge.

Remember, you can still use Enlarge Person for a size boost, although it comes with decreased benefits compared to Large/Huge Evolutions.



Sadly, you can only take the Reach Evolution once, ever.
It does NOT have the "can be taken multiple times" text.
Might I suggest the Lunge feat as a next-best alternative?

Lunge is a great alternative, especially with the potential for Dexterity-based evolutions, and all the Dex you already get anyway, thanks.

The last time I played a summoner, I used this thread for reference on what to take:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...inder-Summoner

Now, most of it assumes you're not playing a synthesis, but I can see the suggestions working with a synthesis, for the most part.

+1 for more browsing material, although I realized I have another question:

If the Synthesist gets access to the Eidolon's evolutions, does the Eidolon get access to the Synthesist's evolutions?

"Bite" being an example - an Eidolon can't select it twice, but if the Synthesist uses Aspect to select Bite and the Eidolon has bite, does it qualify for 1.5x strength modifier damage? (Not that I plan to involve this, but it's just an example for "potentially stacking buffs").

Honestly I hope that's my last question, I have a lot of material to peruse already ;) hopefully for something thematic... Like (for example) it would be for fluff purposes that I wouldn't have a Synthesist's Eidolon have two heads...

Fantasy meet reality, it may not work that way, but it's really just supposed to look cool in your head? (Well that, and actually effectively function both inside and outside of combat, but nevermind).

An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large. The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –2 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also gives the creature a –1 size penalty to its AC and on attack rolls, a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD, a –2 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on Stealth skill checks. If the eidolon has the biped base form, it also gains 10-foot reach. Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total. The eidolon must be Medium to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 8th level before selecting this evolution.

Or:

Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total.

Why is this plural if you can only take it once? (It's a minor errata, but it's plural for the Huge evolution, and for both Large and Huge under "Unchained Summoner"), in fact, it's plural twice ("possesses"), considering a singular sentence would read: "If the eidolon has the reach evolution, it is added to this total for the chosen natural attack".

[DedWards]

Rereading the rules for a summoner and Synthesis, I found the following. (I may be wrong, but this is the way I understand it)

Q1: As a Synthesis, you use your mental abilities (INT, WIS, CHA) for everything related to them, but the Eidolon's physical abilities (STR, DEX, CON) for all physical related things, but only while it's active. So I'd say you use your will against the banishment and dismissal spells.

Q1.a: Unless the Synthesis's specifically states otherwise (like the whole thing with banishment and dismissal), it should work exactly like a normal Summoner's Eidolon.

Q2: As you gain the Eidolon's HP as temporary HP, I'd say that you only count as having 1 HD pet level.

Q3: I'd say this one is iffy. You only gain the bonuses while fused, which is a special ability, which means it acts like temporary bonuses like gear does. So I'd say that you don't get the Eidolon's physical abilities for qualifying for Feats, only the Summoner's stats can be used for qualification.

As for the size thing, I'd say that while you're wearing your Eidolon, you count as it's size and shape.

Looking at the rules for evolutions, I found this line:
"Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once."

Rules for the Reach evolution:
Reach (Ex)
One of an eidolon’s attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon’s reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.

So, sadly, the Reach evolution can only be taken once, but it's once per attack, not attack type. So if you have two claw attacks take this once, only one of the claws gains Reach. This is why it mentions the Reach evolution in plural on the size increasing evolutions.

Size increasing evolutions and pounce / lunge should stack with it, but I don't think the size increase evolution multiplies it, leaving it at 5 ft at all sizes. Remember, only the biped base form will get the Reach from larger sizes.

Bite can be taken once per head. So just buy another head :p

[grarrrg]

Q1: As a Synthesis, you use your mental abilities (INT, WIS, CHA) for everything related to them, but the Eidolon's physical abilities (STR, DEX, CON) for all physical related things, but only while it's active. So I'd say you use your will against the banishment and dismissal spells.

Logically you are correct.
But this is Pathfinder, Logic was left at the door.
Either ALL Saves are your Saves, or ALL Saves are your Eidolon's. There is no mix-and-match, because it doesn't say there is a mix-and-match.

Q3: I'd say this one is iffy. You only gain the bonuses while fused, which is a special ability, which means it acts like temporary bonuses like gear does. So I'd say that you don't get the Eidolon's physical abilities for qualifying for Feats, only the Summoner's stats can be used for qualification.

We covered this one already, it's allowable, in certain circumstances.
Ability Scores:
"Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours."
You can wear the Eidolon-suit for longer than 24 hours, after which the "temporary" increases functionally count as "permanent", allowing you to qualify for Feats and whatnot.
When you are not wearing the Eidolon-suit you will likely cease to qualify for certain feats, and those feats will cease to function until you do qualify for them again.

So, sadly, the Reach evolution can only be taken once, but it's once per attack, not attack type. So if you have two claw attacks take this once, only one of the claws gains Reach. This is why it mentions the Reach evolution in plural on the size increasing evolutions.

?
I'm not sure if you're confused, or just explaining poorly.
You can take Reach once, ever, period.

And I'm really not sure why it speaks of it in the plural, outside of "poor proofreading" (maybe at one point you could take it multiple times and/or the writer of that section thought you could take it multiple times.

Bite can be taken once per head. So just buy another head :p

If you have a pre-existing Bite attack, it will not combine in any way with Eidolon Bite attacks.
Also, this FAQ (while slightly confused about certain things), says that you CAN use a pre-existing Bite attack, but it still counts against your Eidolon Natural Attack limit, and must still follow normal rules for Natural Attacks, such as "one natural attack per limb".
So if you-you have a bite, and your Eidolon has a bite, then you need 2 heads to make both Bite attacks.
Bite is generally a poor return on investment (net 3 Evolution points per attack, and note that the Head does NOTHING on it's own).
Would recommend against multiple Bites.