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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ArmorArmadillo's Avatar

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    Default They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    You invest precious ranks in Jump; the mage casts Fly.
    You invest precious ranks in Climb; the mage casts Spider Climb. Or Fly.
    You invest precious ranks in Hide and Move Silently, the mage casts Invisibility.
    You invest precious ranks in Balance, the mage casts Forcecage on the BBEG and laughs at you.
    Laugh at him I say!

    Battle Acrobat
    Requirements:
    Base Attack Bonus: +4
    Feats: Dodge, Mobility
    Skills: 8 Ranks in one of Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, or Tumble and 4 Ranks in two of the other skills.
    Special: Must not have a fly speed.

    HD: d8

    Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Local), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope
    Skill Points: (6+Int Modifier) Per Level

    NAME OF CLASS
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |Speed Demon, Conditioning

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |Aerial Strike

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |Bonus Feat

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Speed Bonus +10

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Blink Dash

    6th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Contact Velocity

    7th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Speed Bonus +10

    8th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |Enhanced Awareness

    9th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |Bonus Feat

    10th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |High-Speed Melee[/table]

    Armor and Weapon Proficiency: Battle Acrobats gain no new proficiencies in weapons or armor.

    Speed Demon: Battle Acrobats focus on mobility to gain the upper hand in combat. You gain a +1 bonus on damage and a +1 dodge bonus on AC for each 10 feet you move prior to attacking until your next turn, up to a maximum of twice your Battle Acrobat class level. This bonus may only be applied against the opponent against whom you are using your dodge bonus.

    Conditioning: You're in amazing physical shape...you'd have to be to survive the kind of stuff that you attempt on a regular basis. You may add your 1/2 your class level (rounded down) on all Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, or Tumble checks.

    Aerial Strike: You may take to the skies, using momentum and gravity to aid your already deadly skills. At 2nd level, whenever you attack an opponent at the end of a fall, you may gain a +1 on attack and damage rolls for each 10 ft. you fell, to a maximum of your class level. You may not use this strike if Slow Falling, Flying, or under the effect of a feather fall spell or effect.

    Bonus Feat: At 3rd level and again at 9th level, a Battle Acrobat can take one of the following feats as a Bonus Feat: Acrobatic, Agile, Athletic, Combat Expertise, Skill-Focus (Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, or Tumble), or Spring Attack. You must meet all Pre-Requisites for these feats.

    Speed Bonus: At 4th level, and again at 7th level, you gain a 10 ft. Bonus to your base movement speed.

    Blink Dash: You are so deft at moving through combats that you almost seem to be in two places at once. At 5th level, if you move through two spaces threatening a foe which, together, flank that foe in a single turn, you are treated as flanking that foe for any attacks you make that turn.

    Contact Velocity: The world around you just seems to stand still, and you know how to take advantage of that. If you suceed on a Tumble Check to move through an opponent's space, you may immediately make an opposed Balance check against that opponent. If you win the opposed check, that opponent is knocked prone, if you fail, you are knocked into a random adjacent square.

    Enhanced Awareness: At 8th level, you may apply the bonus of your Dodge feat against two opponents, rather than one. This does not allow you to use your bonus against the same opponent twice in one turn.

    High-Speed Melee: You almost can't stop moving, but your enemies definitely will. If you move your base speed at least once during a turn, you may make an additional attack at your full attack bonus. If you have the Spring attack feat, you may make your original attack before finishing your movement and make your second attack after finishing your movement.

    First Edit: Redid some of the ability numbers, and removed some abilities to clean up the class. Added a speed bonus and Contact Velocity.
    Last edited by ArmorArmadillo; 2007-05-23 at 11:25 PM.
    Gnoll Paladin with Zanbatou Avatar by Oregano.

    Homebrews:

    Quote Originally Posted by ExHunterEmerald
    Incidentally, Armadillo, I'd suggest you were hit by a spark of inspiration, but that would knock your armor off.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    I very much like the idea, but I really miss a speed increase ability. All in all: Every action requires a skill check, so that's good enough for the drawbacks, and fighters, as a rule, won't take this class due to skills and skillpoints at fighter-level.
    On the other hand: You could just get yourself a monk-build with dodge, mobility and spring attack, take the run and dash feat as an extra, and perhaps the Punishing Blow feat on unarmed attacks. Now; for a monk, taking this prestige class would still be appealing, if it had any speed increase abilities.

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    Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick's Avatar

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    Default Re: They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    I like this, since I tend to play skill monkeys.

    My qualm, however, is this: who is intended to take this class, of our established skill-based classes?

    While the class abilities- especially those dealing with flanking, i.e. blink dash and the tumble bonuses- are nice, and the d8 HD and two good saves are good...who's going to take this class?

    A bard would sacrifice spellcasting, bardic music, etc.; probably not the best possible deal. A rogue sacrifices precious, precious sneak attack damage, and quite probably delays many of their more useful special abilties. Thanks to initiator level, I can see this meshing with Martial Adepts, but still.

    As it is, this class is only useful to a purely acrobatic character. It grants some potent abilities, but the opportunity cost is too high for, say, a move-silently-and-hide rogue, in my opinion.

    Suggestions: why doesn't Speed Tolerance apply to Hide and Move Silently checks, since you mention them in your introduction?

    And it seems to me, since this isn't a terrifically powerful class, and most of its abilities are combat-centric (dealing with damage or tactical movement), is a sneak attack progression entirely out of place? Or maybe a skirmish ability, or another precision strike variant- maybe requiring a tumble or movement past an opponent.


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    ArmorArmadillo's Avatar

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    Default Re: They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick View Post
    I like this, since I tend to play skill monkeys.

    My qualm, however, is this: who is intended to take this class, of our established skill-based classes?

    While the class abilities- especially those dealing with flanking, i.e. blink dash and the tumble bonuses- are nice, and the d8 HD and two good saves are good...who's going to take this class?

    A bard would sacrifice spellcasting, bardic music, etc.; probably not the best possible deal. A rogue sacrifices precious, precious sneak attack damage, and quite probably delays many of their more useful special abilties. Thanks to initiator level, I can see this meshing with Martial Adepts, but still.

    As it is, this class is only useful to a purely acrobatic character. It grants some potent abilities, but the opportunity cost is too high for, say, a move-silently-and-hide rogue, in my opinion.

    Suggestions: why doesn't Speed Tolerance apply to Hide and Move Silently checks, since you mention them in your introduction?

    And it seems to me, since this isn't a terrifically powerful class, and most of its abilities are combat-centric (dealing with damage or tactical movement), is a sneak attack progression entirely out of place? Or maybe a skirmish ability, or another precision strike variant- maybe requiring a tumble or movement past an opponent.
    I designed the class so that a fighters could take it comfortably after 5th level (which they can, even without an Int bonus).

    Speed Tolerance probably should apply to Move Silently (Hide doesn't actually involve moving).

    Sneak Attack is, hmm...interesting. Actually, it seems pretty decent. Not full rogue, mind you, but since the ability tends to involve tactical movement, I think it has a good place in the class.

    Actually, reviewing the class, I did notice a problem, in that you really don't need to be rolling skill checks enough. (Ironically, it's one of the things people have said wasn't a problem in the class)

    One of the problems with skills like Tumble, Balance, or Climb, is that DCs are more or less designed for either low-level people, or people who haven't invested significantly in the class. Frankly, at medium or so levels, Tumbling past opponent's will just require taking 10 and moving as you please. (I believe that Tumbling should use a variant of opposed Tumble vs. Attack Roll checks, but I can't really write variant systems into PrCs)

    Now, Jump and Climb I both have covered in Aerial Strike an ability that can make use of Taking 10, but also really encourages the player to go for broke sometimes, and hopefully in the DM's really creative encounter fought on a Ship's Rigging or on a Cliffside.

    Swim is too situational to really be a basis for an ability, and I just have to trust that it'll come in handy in it's own right in any encounter where it'd be relevant.

    Balance and Tumble are left over, two skills that become pointless to invest in once you have enough ranks to take 10 and clear most, if not all, of the DCs presented to you. I'm probably going to add, once I figure it out, a way to utilize these skills more...
    Gnoll Paladin with Zanbatou Avatar by Oregano.

    Homebrews:

    Quote Originally Posted by ExHunterEmerald
    Incidentally, Armadillo, I'd suggest you were hit by a spark of inspiration, but that would knock your armor off.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    Speed Demon should be replaced by Skirmish. This one simple change would make the class much more viable and streamlined. Also, numerical bonuses to damage can be multiplied, which can be abused to get obscene amounts of damage.

    I have to admit I'm a little disappointed that this class doesn't grant a fly speed, climb speed, or swim speed. Even something like "When you make a jump check, you may fly the indicated jumping distance at a speed equal to your move speed with perfect maneuverability. You must begin and end your movement on solid ground when using this ability."

    A boost to land speed would be awesome too, especially since ever 10 feet of movement above 30 gives a stackable +4 to jump checks.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmorArmadillo View Post
    Wire-Fu: ... and your vertical jumps are not limited by your height.
    What are you talking about? Vertical jumps limited by the height of your jump? That doesn't make any sense. Limited by the height of your character? That doesn't make much sense either. The only rule even vaguely similar to that is the vertical reach chart, but that's just the distance from your toes to the tips of your fingers when you stretch out vertically. I double-checked the PHB.
    Last edited by Gnomick; 2007-05-23 at 01:53 PM.
    -Meta Haiku-&&One two three four five&&One two three four-through-seven&&One two three four five

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ArmorArmadillo's Avatar

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    Default Re: They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomick View Post
    Speed Demon should be replaced by Skirmish. This one simple change would make the class much more viable and streamlined. Also, numerical bonuses to damage can be multiplied, which can be abused to get obscene amounts of damage.

    I have to admit I'm a little disappointed that this class doesn't grant a fly speed, climb speed, or swim speed. Even something like "When you make a jump check, you may fly the indicated jumping distance at a speed equal to your move speed with perfect maneuverability. You must begin and end your movement on solid ground when using this ability."

    A boost to land speed would be awesome too, especially since ever 10 feet of movement above 30 gives a stackable +4 to jump checks.


    What are you talking about? Vertical jumps limited by the height of your jump? That doesn't make any sense. Limited by the height of your character? That doesn't make much sense either. The only rule even vaguely similar to that is the vertical reach chart, but that's just the distance from your toes to the tips of your fingers when you stretch out vertically. I double-checked the PHB.
    Hmm...Vertical jumps limited by height was a holdover from somewhere, I suppose it was just confusion on my part though.

    I'm not using Skirmish. Speed Demon is about moving as much as possible, not just 10 feet. Also, Scout already exists. I'm looking to create something new here, not to reinvent the wheel. As for the multipliable ability, I'm aware of the potential for abuse, but the potential is not so high that it is off limits. Rogue and Scout already have the bonus damage dice field covered, I'm looking to do something different.

    I don't want to give different speeds, or variable Fly speeds. One of my pet peeves is that classes too often try to make the abilities that they're built around irrelevant. Once a character has a Climb or Fly speed, Climb and Jump are largely useless as skills.
    Also, a Perfect Fly speed doesn't perform like Jumps, as it allows you to hover on the ground, zig-zag midair, and the like. If I limited it to perform like Jumps, why bother? Jump already exists...
    I want a class that makes use of the skill mechanics that already exists, not a class that reworks those mechanics.

    As for a bonus to speed, I'm still unsure. It seems very possible, so I think I'll add at least +10/+20 throughout the progression. I don't want to make it too high, because at a certain point characters just don't get to use high land speeds often enough, and I want players using Speed Demon and Blink Dash to make tactical movements, not run in circles arbitrarily to rack up distance covered.

    I'm editing some of the class abilities, because after crunching the numbers they were a bit much.
    Got rid of Wire-Fu, I found it to be either unimpressive for the level or too much, depending on the use or ratio. Also got rid of Speed Tolerance and Physical Mastery, as I want Balancing/Tumbling etc. to be tactical decisions and not just automatic bonuses. Added Contact Velocity to make use of Balance
    Also, fewer abilities meant I could add a Speed Bonus and make the class cleaner.
    Last edited by ArmorArmadillo; 2007-05-23 at 04:05 PM.
    Gnoll Paladin with Zanbatou Avatar by Oregano.

    Homebrews:

    Quote Originally Posted by ExHunterEmerald
    Incidentally, Armadillo, I'd suggest you were hit by a spark of inspiration, but that would knock your armor off.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmorArmadillo View Post
    (I believe that Tumbling should use a variant of opposed Tumble vs. Attack Roll checks, but I can't really write variant systems into PrCs)
    Why ever not? If you worried about Intellectual Property just say: "This class is intended (strongly recommended?) to be used in conjuction with the variant tumbling rules found on page (##) of (bookname).". As long as you aren't turning a profit or giving away copyright material, I can't see the problem morally, and the continued existance of this forum shows that it isn't a practical problem legally.
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    ArmorArmadillo's Avatar

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    Default Re: They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Why ever not? If you worried about Intellectual Property just say: "This class is intended (strongly recommended?) to be used in conjuction with the variant tumbling rules found on page (##) of (bookname).". As long as you aren't turning a profit or giving away copyright material, I can't see the problem morally, and the continued existance of this forum shows that it isn't a practical problem legally.
    No copyright issues, but the fact is the best I could do is recommend such a roll with the class. I'd rather just keep them separate, it's cleaner.
    Gnoll Paladin with Zanbatou Avatar by Oregano.

    Homebrews:

    Quote Originally Posted by ExHunterEmerald
    Incidentally, Armadillo, I'd suggest you were hit by a spark of inspiration, but that would knock your armor off.

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    To me, overland speed is the most important factor of combat. Charge range, tumbles, jumps.. All these use overland speed. Not having overland speed in a mobile class just seems... Not very mobile.
    I mean; my most favored feats are: Run and Dash. Now; the run might not add much in-combat advantage, but it does allow you to circle the battlefield more effectively by making a full-move. (Same goes for dash; it's +25 foot move in full move action with the run feat. That's five squares. Extra.)
    Circling a battlefield allows you to charge where and how you want, including getting full benefit for flanking positions, ruining strategic lines of defense, or taking the opponent's commander out of the fight with a sneak attack, grapple, or trip-on-charge. (Actually, improved trip is grand for strength-based rogues!)

    So that's why I'd like to see a speed increase. Because without it, this class seems to miss it's key feature: Mobility.

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    Fax Celestis's Avatar

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    Default Re: They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    Speed Demon should be moved back a few levels to prevent dipping. Otherwise, my Lawful Neutral Dark Shadow Xeph Cleric 1/Ardent 1/Wizard 1/Incarnate 1/Monk 12/Battle Acrobat 1 spots a foe on the horizon, charges, and punches him. He moves 490' and swings, gaining +49 damage and +49 dodge AC. Couple this with Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper, and I'm suddenly getting +109 damage and +29 AC (+49-20), for a one-level dip that I--as a mobility junkie--have no trouble qualifying for. Worse, I could take Open Lesser Chakra (Arms) and Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws), and full-attack at the end of my charge, getting five (I think...?) swings, all of which deal +109 damage.

    Or, I just so happen to have a pair of Slippers of Setting Sun, which grant me access to Tornado Throw. I move 490', but this time I make a trip attempt at the end--with a +2 bonus for every 5' I move, for a +196. Using this, and realizing that I'm going to beat the trip check by roughly 175, and I get to throw you 10'...or further, at a 5 points of check beating to 5' ration, and dealing an additional 1d6 per 5' thrown. The long and short of it is, I get to toss you 360', dealing 37d6+49, and getting +49 dodge AC.

    Granted, this is an extreme instance, but I believe you see my point.

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    ArmorArmadillo's Avatar

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    Default Re: They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax_Celestis View Post
    Speed Demon should be moved back a few levels to prevent dipping. Otherwise, my Lawful Neutral Dark Shadow Xeph Cleric 1/Ardent 1/Wizard 1/Incarnate 1/Monk 12/Battle Acrobat 1 spots a foe on the horizon, charges, and punches him. He moves 490' and swings, gaining +49 damage and +49 dodge AC. Couple this with Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper, and I'm suddenly getting +109 damage and +29 AC (+49-20), for a one-level dip that I--as a mobility junkie--have no trouble qualifying for.

    Or, I just so happen to have a pair of Slippers of Setting Sun, which grant me access to Tornado Throw. I move 490', but this time I make a trip attempt at the end--with a +2 bonus for every 5' I move, for a +196. Using this, and realizing that I'm going to beat the trip check by roughly 175, and I get to throw you 10'...or further, at a 5 points of check beating to 5' ration, and dealing an additional 1d6 per 5' thrown. The long and short of it is, I get to toss you 360', dealing 37d6+49, and getting +49 dodge AC.

    Granted, this is an extreme instance, but I believe you see my point.
    Point taken indeed!

    Unfortunately I tend not to think a lot about dipping, as I tend to play with people who focus on character designs, but I do respect that it is an important concern, and you are correct that it is powerful for an ability that doesn't require commitment.

    The only problem I see with this, though, is that Speed Demon is a big part of the class' tactics, and I don't want players to have to trudge through small skill bonuses to get to the meat of the class' tactics.
    I think the best way to handle this is to limit the bonus of Speed Demon based on the level of the class.


    As for speed boosts, the class isn't just about speed, it's about using unorthodox movement styles. I feel like adding movement speed can be an oversimplification of mobility; being mobile doesn't just make you a good sprinter (that's part of it, which is why I added two speed boosts), but being able to control your movements. Also, once you're in the fray, you experience diminishing returns with speed.
    The class is still under production, and I definitely will be considering upping the overall speed bonus.
    Gnoll Paladin with Zanbatou Avatar by Oregano.

    Homebrews:

    Quote Originally Posted by ExHunterEmerald
    Incidentally, Armadillo, I'd suggest you were hit by a spark of inspiration, but that would knock your armor off.

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    Default Re: They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    For contact velocity, if the Battle Acrobat fails the balance check, are they knocked prone into an adjacent square, or just shunted over?
    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe View Post
    Hmm. Previous experience tells me that pressing Z or R twice would enable us to do a BARREL ROLL, which may allow us to escape this foul monster.
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    Default Re: They Move So Fast...Like Bees! [PrC]

    In the original 3rd edition ruleset, and/or 2nd edition, the height of your jump was limited by the height of your character. But it's not anymore. Just to clear that up.

    So what happens when someone casts fly on you?
    Do you lose all your class-based abilities?

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