Dreamscarred Press Presents: "Arcforge: Technology Expanded"

[ElderLucian]

The mech table for the str/dex bonus has it starting at 5th level while the description has it starting at 4th.

[Sayt]

Considering your Average Mech gets 5 enhancements, I'd consider making the Targetting/Munitions Upgrade/Armour Plating lines to be one enhancement each, and too have them scale. automatically as your Effective Mech level increases.

Also, might I suggest an "Ammunition Hoppers" enhancement that gives automatic 'reloading' and ammunition capacity to ranged weapons such as javelins and crossbows?

Also, a clarification on whether a single ranged weapon is capable of firing and reloading a two-handed ranged weapon (Such as bow or crossbow) could be a good thing to have.


For instance, a Bipedal Mecha with a Heavy Crossbow in each weapon slot. Is he capable of reloading? How do weapon slots interact with handed-ness and wielding? Is a singular weapon slot a grip that can hold one 1-handed weapon, or is it an autonomous mounting that can control and fire a given weapon independently of the limb-layout of the pilot?


Also, further ideas: A Kasatha Mech-pilot archetype that specialies in multiwielding weaponsm possibly witha unique enhancement allowing multiple weapons to be attacked with in a round.

That, and I just realised that you could make a passable go at Tau Battlesuits from 40k. I am so there for that.

[unseenmage]

Any chance we'll get city mechs like those found in the, beautifully fluffed but horribly crunched, DragonMech books?
I really enjoy that gameworld and the idea of city mechs build with magic and engineering in a pre-industrial era. But fighting their poor rules and even poorer formatting is migraine inducing torment.

I had strongly considered converting all their stuff to PF (and reformatting the content while I was at it) then posting the resultant PDF to the forums but the thought of fighting that nonsense always kept that project firmly on a back burner.

[Ssalarn]

The mech table for the str/dex bonus has it starting at 5th level while the description has it starting at 4th.

Sorry, I'll get that fixed. Tweaked the table, missed the entry.

[Axebird]

Composite bows do not get an AP rating, they already get STR to damage. So, really the issue is the pick, apparently, a weapon I've never actually seen used in play because it's generally not great. Does anyone else think this is a problem?

The stiletto is an expensive technological item.

Dude what? That has nothing to do with my post. I didn't suggest anything about composite bows having a penetration rating, and the little bit you decided to respond to (while completely ignoring everything else) was in reference to mech combat abilities.

[Thealtruistorc]

You know, with all the talk about giant mecha, I'm surprised there has been no mention of the technologically infused series that invented psionics in the first place (hint). It would be neat to see a few items based upon what they do in there.

For example, a pharmaceutical that grants the wild talent feat to a character injected with it (there would be a limit, of course), or perhaps cybernetics/pharmaceuticals designed to limit psionic effects (maybe a poison that drops your manifester level temporarily, similar to how drugs were used to keep the children's powers from growing out of control). Maybe motorbikes could be added, or perhaps (a tribute to one of the most iconic panels in the book) a power that allows you to pilot a vehicle effortlessly with telekinesis.

Also, a 9th-level nuke power, because Pathfinder needs at least one equivalent to Apocalypse from the Sky.

[Kiton2]

I'd really not go so far as to say it invented psionics. Despite their 'naming' schemes, most of that stuff comes straight out of ancient epics like Mahabharata. We only today associate it with sci-fi because of the naming conventions that came in 2nd edition. Were it not for those, the entire psionics system had and has always been a closer analogue to the magic used even in bloody Forgotten Realms novels than any amount of vancian casting *ever* has outside of the actual vance books (in which it is admittedly rather badass).

Using your will and 'inner/spiritual force' to change the world around you, with limits based more on exhaustion or inner capacity was as much the province of ancient heroic epics as of gods and magicians... at least until the 1970s!


Edit
In regards to 9th level nuke powers, well, I've already made *my* suggestion as to what that ought to be (less a power and more of a weapon system or energy-weapon special discipline), since hey, wizards and clerics can make entire new planes of existence, so nothing wrong with a guy with a giant robot being able to punch holes through those!

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[Ssalarn]

Is the psywar archetype taking the place of the pilot class you have mentioned previously?

We decided to skip having a new base class entirely, and instead just use a base set of mech rules that can be applied to any archetype. Since I'd already written up so many mechanics for it, I've cannibalized many of them and worked them into some of them archetypes.

You know, with all the talk about giant mecha, I'm surprised there has been no mention of the technologically infused series that invented psionics in the first place (hint). It would be neat to see a few items based upon what they do in there.

For example, a pharmaceutical that grants the wild talent feat to a character injected with it (there would be a limit, of course), or perhaps cybernetics/pharmaceuticals designed to limit psionic effects (maybe a poison that drops your manifester level temporarily, similar to how drugs were used to keep the children's powers from growing out of control). Maybe motorbikes could be added, or perhaps (a tribute to one of the most iconic panels in the book) a power that allows you to pilot a vehicle effortlessly with telekinesis.[...]

Most of these are things that are already in some stage of development

Dude what? That has nothing to do with my post. I didn't suggest anything about composite bows having a penetration rating[...]

Yes, you did.

I'm not talking about using firearms. Paizo firearms aren't worth using unless you're getting an ability score to damage from somewhere, and even then it's iffy. I'm talking about using bog standard melee weapons and composite bows, which are explicitly called out as an option.

See? Right there.

Also, maybe don't get so offended. I didn't respond to the rest of your post because some of it was valid, some of it wasn't, and all of it was math. So instead of clogging up an entire screen's worth of thread space with addressing which points were which, I ran the numbers you provided, garnered feedback from other forums, and updated the playtest accordingly. I even removed the picks from the table, not because I believe they're an issue, but so you wouldn't derail this thread arguing something that is essentially irrelevant. I said right in the OP that updates would be coming hot and fast, and I would expect people to understand that that means they should be constantly looking into the playtest if they want to see the results of their feedback.

[MilleniaAntares]

I've been letting cavalier and samurai kind of roll around in my head for a bit. I'm partially inclined to give such an archetype a motorcycle that can be upgraded with mech enhancements instead of an actual mech (or lock him in to a wheeled quadruped). I'd probably see if it wasn't something that I could make accessible to both classes, maybe replacing challenge and order.

Ahem.

:D

Also drills would be an interesting weapon. Especially if they could be used to go underground and stuff...

[Kiton2]

Ahem.

:D

Also drills would be an interesting weapon. Especially if they could be used to go underground and stuff...

Problem with that image: Your bonded mount can only do this if its feats and/or class levels are used to obtain a mech. Now I'm not saying that's *impossible*... But it's probably easier to find someone to be the ambiguously-insinuative Trombe to your burly Daizengar instead.

are we talking arm-mounted plasma drill hurricanes here, or knee-mounted drills from the tank that forms your feet?
:D

[Sayt]

Rocket Punch, I think, needs to be specified to not stack with Lances and Spirited charge, otherwise that damage could get stupid quick.

Also, Psi-Core Upgrade and Awakened Staff both reference "Electrical damage".

[Axebird]

See? Right there.

The context of that was a claim about mechs not granting damage advantages, not armor penetration. You responded about weapons that take multiple rounds to load and fire, when I was talking about just hitting things with swords and shooting bows.

Also, maybe don't get so butthurt. I didn't respond to the rest of your post because some of it was valid, some of it wasn't, and all of it was math. So instead of clogging up an entire screen's worth of thread space with addressing which points were which, I ran the numbers you provided, garnered feedback from other forums, and updated the playtest accordingly. I even removed the picks from the table, not because I believe they're an issue, but so you wouldn't derail this thread arguing something that is essentially irrelevant. I said right in the OP that updates would be coming hot and fast, and I would expect people to understand that that means they should be constantly looking into the playtest if they want to see the results of their feedback.

Thank you. It looks a lot better now, though I'm still worried about the effects of armor penetration on melee weapons (a +5 monofilament stiletto is still attacking at, effectively, a +8 higher bonus than, say, a +5 adamantine kukri that has close to the same cost but is dramatically weaker).

I don't want to come off as aggressive, but I can't really tell when the document is updated (or exactly what was altered without looking through everything, since there's no change log) without spending time combing through it, so without any indication in this thread that came off as a complete dismissal of everything I said. You can understand why that would be frustrating.

[Doc_Maynot]

*Drops in. Drools. Begins reading.*

Yeah, the archetypes I've got in some stage of development right now are-
Aegis
Vitalist (possibly - this one may be cut if I can't nail down the mechanics)

So.... What are they looking like? Like the angle you are going with them? I only ask because they are my two favorite DSP classes.

[Kaidinah]

Thank you. It looks a lot better now, though I'm still worried about the effects of armor penetration on melee weapons (a +5 monofilament stiletto is still attacking at, effectively, a +8 higher bonus than, say, a +5 adamantine kukri that has close to the same cost but is dramatically weaker).

To be fair, I think it was being balanced against the chainsaw melee weapon in the paizo technology guide, which expends 1 charge every hour, has 10 charges per battery, and is a 3d6 18-20/x2 crit weapon that also grants a +2 circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks.

[Ssalarn]

To be fair, I think it was being balanced against the chainsaw melee weapon in the paizo technology guide, which expends 1 charge every hour, has 10 charges per battery, and is a 3d6 18-20/x2 crit weapon that also grants a +2 circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks.

Pretty sure the chainsaw is 3d6 18-20/x3 that grants a circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks. Could be misremembering though. Tech weapons are really powerful.

[Ssalarn]

*Drops in. Drools. Begins reading.*

So.... What are they looking like? Like the angle you are going with them? I only ask because they are my two favorite DSP classes.

Aegis cobbles together his suit and mech into a technoplasmic monstrosity.

Vitalist is.... Basically, the more mechs in the party, the better he is, allowing them to fuse their mechs together and allow a single fused creature to receive multiple turns based on the number of piloted mechs. Kind of like the Reverse Flash of the Tactician archetype's capstone.

The context of that was a claim about mechs not granting damage advantages, not armor penetration. You responded about weapons that take multiple rounds to load and fire, when I was talking about just hitting things with swords and shooting bows.




Thank you. It looks a lot better now, though I'm still worried about the effects of armor penetration on melee weapons (a +5 monofilament stiletto is still attacking at, effectively, a +8 higher bonus than, say, a +5 adamantine kukri that has close to the same cost but is dramatically weaker).

I don't want to come off as aggressive, but I can't really tell when the document is updated (or exactly what was altered without looking through everything, since there's no change log) without spending time combing through it, so without any indication in this thread that came off as a complete dismissal of everything I said. You can understand why that would be frustrating.

No worries. Tone is really hard to judge through the filter of the internet. Just know that I always listen and take feedback into account, especially when someone, as you did, takes the time to run the numbers or report playtest feedback.

[Doc_Maynot]

Vitalist is.... Basically, the more mechs in the party, the better he is, allowing them to fuse their mechs together and allow a single fused creature to receive multiple turns based on the number of piloted mechs. Kind of like the Reverse Flash of the Tactician archetype's capstone.

I'm picturing Power Ranger mechs joining into a super mech. I can dig it.

[Axebird]

The chainsaw from the Technology Guide is, when activated as a standard action, a two handed deadly, distracting weapon that deals 3d6 damage and has a critical range of 18-20/x2. It also grants a +2 morale bonus to Intimidate checks, and a -10 penalty to Stealth checks.

So meaningfully it's a falchion that deals 5.5 more damage on average, takes a standard action to turn on after you draw it, and has some fluffy bits that don't really matter.

[Kaidinah]

The chainsaw from the Technology Guide is, when activated as a standard action, a two handed deadly, distracting weapon that deals 3d6 damage and has a critical range of 18-20/x2. It also grants a +2 morale bonus to Intimidate checks, and a -10 penalty to Stealth checks.

So meaningfully it's a falchion that deals 5.5 more damage on average, takes a standard action to turn on after you draw it, and has some fluffy bits that don't really matter.

It also scales ridiculously well with size increasing effects. And it stays on for an hour per charge, so the standard action is not a problem. It makes a really good opposite to the monofilament stiletto's amazingness for dex-based characters.

[Ssalarn]

I'm picturing Power Ranger mechs joining into a super mech. I can dig it.

I wasn't going to say "Power Ranger", maybe hoping for more like Voltron or any of the other transformation-fusing mech trope sources, but yeah, that. A few things have changed since I started with the archetype though, so I'm still trying smooth out the rough edges.

[Kiton2]

The old golden standard for combiners is Getter. Good stuff, that.

[Axebird]

It also scales ridiculously well with size increasing effects. And it stays on for an hour per charge, so the standard action is not a problem. It makes a really good opposite to the monofilament stiletto's amazingness for dex-based characters.

Keeping it on for an hour is questionable, since it imposes a massive Stealth penalty that means even if you're just moving normally creatures are going to hear you coming from a long ways away.

It's also not nearly as powerful as the monofilament stiletto- you're underselling the huge accuracy advantage that armor penetration grants.

[Ssalarn]

Keeping it on for an hour is questionable, since it imposes a massive Stealth penalty that means even if you're just moving normally creatures are going to hear you coming from a long ways away.

It's also not nearly as powerful as the monofilament stiletto- you're underselling the huge accuracy advantage that armor penetration grants.

The damage sims and calculations I've run indicate that at most levels, the two weapons will end up with fairly similar results over the course of combat, with the chainsaw crawling ahead at higher levels. The chainsaw also gets 1.5 strength and PA since it's a two-handed weapon, while the stiletto, as a light weapon, can never receive those additional damage modifiers. So the chainsaw has much higher base damage numbers, and the stiletto has more accuracy against armored foes. The chainsaw has a battery, the stiletto breaks or is destroyed on a natural 1.

[Mithril Leaf]

When creating the Aegis stuff, would it be possible to have it be in the form of Customizations allowing a combination of the Astral Suit with the Mech so that we could combine possibly disparate class combinations? Perhaps an archetype that gives you the suit and a customization for free with the customization allowing the combination?

Also I really really really love the Cryptic archetype. It's super fun and neat and stacks with Brutal Disruptor.

The Psychic Energizer lets you hit that lovely Wilder point where you can surge during every single manifestation when combined with the Ghosty Calm surge thingie and the magic hat doodad from Ultimate Psionics.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Ok, sooo, I realised tonight that something hasn't really been addressed yet: Using a vehicle as a weapon in combat.

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That, and what're the chances of getting some sort of mechanic to turn a mecha into a vehicle, and vice-versa?

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Because I first saw a motorcycle turn into a suit of power armor that went over another suit of power armor when I was an impressionable youth, and it's forever tainted my worldview.

[Ssalarn]

Ok, sooo, I realised tonight that something hasn't really been addressed yet: Using a vehicle as a weapon in combat.

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That, and what're the chances of getting some sort of mechanic to turn a mecha into a vehicle, and vice-versa?

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Because I first saw a motorcycle turn into a suit of power armor that went over another suit of power armor when I was an impressionable youth, and it's forever tainted my worldview.

I'll see what I can do for those suggestions

[Mithril Leaf]

So how much for some Forgeborn love? Forgeborn Aegis Mecha build sounds super fun.

[Ssalarn]

So how much for some Forgeborn love? Forgeborn Aegis Mecha build sounds super fun.

Forgeborn are actually getting at least one racial archetype tied to the actual "Arcforge" technological artifact that I'll be rolling out soon. Maybe even some alternate racial traits for forgeborn allowing them to exchange their psionic affinity for technological advantages (basically making them cyborgs instead of half-golems).

[Kiton2]

Actually, much as I love the Aegis, this would be a good opportunity to hit the brakes, if ever so slightly, on its rampant growth of every-system-ever-get.

Aegis should actually be an archetype... Probably losing access to the other suit forms, a good amount of CPts, and probably replacing the master craftsman and crafting bonus with mech stuff.

[Ssalarn]

A new Dread archetype, The Eclipse, is up, and I am going to bed. Let me know what you think and I'll respond when I wake up.
Later everyone!