Dreamscarred Press Presents: "Arcforge: Technology Expanded"

[tekevil]

Steelforge seems more Fantasy in general and I'd say Firearms fit in better with Tech instead of general fantasy.

[Mithril Leaf]

Is there any reason that the Psychic Energizer which has a weaker effect than the Circlet of the Sheltered Mind is almost 5 times as expensive as it? It's still more than 3 times as expensive after factoring in adding it to another item.

[Axebird]

I rather like the Armor Penetration stuff, but I'm curious whether it should be in this supplement rather than, say, Steelforge. Then again, I'm not quite sure how you guys do stuff in the background.

A mechanic identical to armor penetration was one of the nonmagical item enhancements in Steelforge briefly, before it was binned.

[PsyBomb]

A mechanic identical to armor penetration was one of the nonmagical item enhancements in Steelforge briefly, before it was binned.

It was binned for a couple of reasons, one of which is that it would have stepped on this system. We looked at both and found Ssalarn's to work better (and was already more thoroughly integrated, rather than a part of a subsystem off to the side). I'll likely be adding an AP nonmagical enhancement later on, now that we're on a unified idea of how it should go. And now, back to Arcforge...

I may be biased, but I really like the Eclipse. Need to do a test build on it, especially on the durability of lesser mechs to see if they're likely to stand up to punishment. Also need to test for compatability with the other archetypes, haven't gotten a chance to yet.

[Ssalarn]

Couple big changes I'm looking at-

Swapping mechs from a natural armor bonus to an armor bonus.

Separating the Mech Piloting feat from the Psi-Core Upgrade feat. Anyone, regardless of access to a PP pool, will be able to grab a mech, but having a psi-core in mainframe mode will give you some bonuses to piloting.

I'm running a couple formulas and looking at how to address the way technological weapons interact with base assumptions of the game, and how to make that scale better. Basically, chainsaws are great when there's one, but really scary when there's one in every garage. I want to excuse that increased rocket tag element without taking away fun toys or forcing new math, so I'm kind of thinking the best thing to so is to introduce better technological armors, and then create a sliding scale for pricing- basically, the cheaper and more affordable technological weapons are in your setting, the cheaper and more affordable technological armor will be, so the two always exist in balanced opposition. That also means that if you live in a world where the garbage man has a mech for picking up the trash, the barbarian mercenary is probably going to have ready access to techno-armor that allows him take a chainsaw or laser rifle blast to the chest about as well as he currently takes a bolt or arrow.

Let me know what your thoughts or concerns are with these changes. Also-

There needs to be a sliding scale included in the supplement's assumptions, to adjust costs and prereqs according to your world. If you've got mech piloting trash guy, technological weapons should be cheap and the Technologist feat should either be a free bonus feat or waived entirely. If there's basically one tiny part of your world where a space station crashed and that's the source of all technology, tech should be more expensive, the Technologist feat should be required for most tech prereqs, etc.

Where do you guys feel you'd like that sliding scale to start? Do you think it's better for price and prereqs to assume a standard setting like Paizo's Golarion, where there might only be 1 mech piloting PC in the whole world, or do you want it to automatically assume that mechs are going to be everywhere?
The current design assumption, and my personal preference, is that things are priced and gated for a lower tech world where technology is exceedingly rare, and then the sliding scale would allow you to make technology cheaper and more accessible the farther you moved away from that assumption.

(This should address some other questions, like "why is the Psychic Energizer chip priced as it is"- because it's a microchip planted in your brain. The more common cybernetic surgery is, the cheaper that chip should be. Exactly how much cheaper is something I intend to very clearly and specifically define.)

[Ssalarn]

I may be biased, but I really like the Eclipse. Need to do a test build on it, especially on the durability of lesser mechs to see if they're likely to stand up to punishment. Also need to test for compatability with the other archetypes, haven't gotten a chance to yet.

I love the Eclipse (though I did write it, so that might not count for much...)

It's going to be the boss fight in tomorrow night's game.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Why.. why ... why would you do this? Seriously guys, I just started a PoW heavy RotRL, and now I have all this neat toys that I want to use, but can't.... I'm half tempted to can the RotRL games and run Iron Gods just so I have a viable excuse to introduce this.

[Ssalarn]

Why.. why ... why would you do this? Seriously guys, I just started a PoW heavy RotRL, and now I have all this neat toys that I want to use, but can't.... I'm half tempted to can the RotRL games and run Iron Gods just so I have a viable excuse to introduce this.

Just refluff mechs as ancient Azlanti artifacts and put Karzoug in a colossal mech. I feel like it'll work.

[Mithril Leaf]

My vote is for pricing somewhere in the middle. It seems likely that if you are going to include mechs at all in your fantasy game, you will probably allow at least a reasonable amount of PC access to them. Maybe a kingdom of dwarves has them and you can reasonably commission them, but you can't get them at any old magic mart.

For reference, I am thinking around the level of Eberron.

[PsyBomb]

Personal thoughts on those:

Armor v Natural Armor: Armor bonus makes more sense, I think.

I like that idea for Psi-Core, since it helps the non-Psionic archetypes fit into the fluff much more easily.

On sliding scales: This is a good thing, though the trick is going to be in figuring out where the default will be. I'm in favor of the "Mechs are used in war, not to take out the trash" location. Balanced in cost against equivalent magic, since magic might well have been involved in making them (though not in its operations after that). The way I see it, if a GM is including this reference, his world is very likely to account for it.

I can see it either way, though.

[Nyaa]

Why do mecha cost money at all if they require feats to pilot?
If we pit random mecha pilots against equal wealth and level characters of the same tier without mecha, would they have favorable matchups against more than half of them? What if we use dungeons speedrunning or monster slaying test instead?

[Ssalarn]

Why do mecha cost money at all if they require feats to pilot?
If we pit random mecha pilots against equal wealth and level characters of the same tier without mecha, would they have favorable matchups against more than half of them? What if we use dungeons speedrunning or monster slaying test instead?

The cost for rebuilding/restoring class-based mechs exists primarily to help offset the WBL advantage they grant over non-mech classes (every mech is essentially granting free STR/DEX belts, and in many cases they're also offering transportation advantages). Other than that, they should stack up well (not too strong, not too weak) compared to same tier classes, though the additional utility they grant may be enough to help some Tier 4 classes close the gap to Tier 3.

[Cyrocloud]

Looks really cool so far and I look forward to all the crazy awesome stuff to come out of this. I have a few questions though. Will there be options for mechs to get natural weapons, like claws, bites and slams? And if so will they be a new type of weapon affinity for the mech or would they just end up being a mecha enhancement? Also does the pilot suffer from non-proficiency penalties with weapons if the mech can use it and the pilot can't?

[stack]

Strongly agree about armor instead of NA. Wanted to mention that sooner and it slipped my mind.

Base pricing should probably correspond to adding the system to default Golarion+psionics, though I would love to play in a tech setting. Had a game idea for that once, never ran it (After the tech guide came out I thought of a campaign where the players were NPC classes, explorers crash-landed on a high-psionics planet. With dinosaurs. Using the tech to survive until they adapted, retraining NPC levels to new classes.)

[Tohsaka Rin]

Had a game idea for that once, never ran it (After the tech guide came out I thought of a campaign where the players were NPC classes, explorers crash-landed on a high-psionics planet. With dinosaurs. Using the tech to survive until they adapted, retraining NPC levels to new classes.)

The 80s called.

Spoiler

Show

They wanted to know if you could hang out for a bit.

[stack]

The 80s called.

Spoiler

Show

They wanted to know if you could hang out for a bit.

I had them and yes, I would like to hang out.

Heck, I've got kids and Imaginex has a dino-rider line, so I don't even need the 80s.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Don't need the 80s? Now you're just talking crazy, man. I think we both know how much the 80s are needed at a time like this.

Spoiler

Show

Seriously, how else are you gonna get around when you don't have a dino to ri-

Wow, I just realised that not one of us asked if Arcforge would have cars of some sort. Eight pages before that happened, unless I just missed someone else asking that.

Now if you'll excuse me, my mean ol' brain needs me to watch the Bots Master intro four times in a row... Maybe five.

[Milo v3]

The current design assumption, and my personal preference, is that things are priced and gated for a lower tech world where technology is exceedingly rare, and then the sliding scale would allow you to make technology cheaper and more accessible the farther you moved away from that assumption.

(This should address some other questions, like "why is the Psychic Energizer chip priced as it is"- because it's a microchip planted in your brain. The more common cybernetic surgery is, the cheaper that chip should be. Exactly how much cheaper is something I intend to very clearly and specifically define.)

I don't think this is a good enough reason. I mean look at the ability modifier cybertech, they are equal in price to their magical counterparts. The dermal plating costs the same as amulets of natural armour. Also the pricing rules for technological items states "When pricing a new technological item, use the existing guidelines for estimating magic item value." The psychic energizer chips should be worth the same as the magical version of the item.

As for scaling prices, I think that is only appropriate to if as the prices scale, so do the items power. Since they are meant to be equivalent to magic items.

[Ssalarn]

I don't think this is a good enough reason. I mean look at the ability modifier cybertech, they are equal in price to their magical counterparts. The dermal plating costs the same as amulets of natural armour. Also the pricing rules for technological items states "When pricing a new technological item, use the existing guidelines for estimating magic item value." The psychic energizer chips should be worth the same as the magical version of the item.

As for scaling prices, I think that is only appropriate to if as the prices scale, so do the items power. Since they are meant to be equivalent to magic items.

The chip actually has a price multiplier applied for technically being "slotless" (yes, it takes the Brain slot, but that's a slot specific to technology). So the math actually isn't that off.

The thing with most technological items and weapons though (and what I'm primarily referring to), is that their base performance is higher than a non-tech, non-magical standard item or weapon. A chainsaw, for example, is in most ways as good as a +2 magical weapon. Same for non-magical laser weapons, rocket launchers, etc. So, if we want to play with those earlier, we need to tweak the assumptions of the game.

[Milo v3]

The chip actually has a price multiplier applied for technically being "slotless" (yes, it takes the Brain slot, but that's a slot specific to technology). So the math actually isn't that off.

Based on that, skill slots would cost double, but their cost is equal to a skill increasing item.

The thing with most technological items and weapons though (and what I'm primarily referring to), is that their base performance is higher than a non-tech, non-magical standard item or weapon. A chainsaw, for example, is in most ways as good as a +2 magical weapon. Same for non-magical laser weapons, rocket launchers, etc. So, if we want to play with those earlier, we need to tweak the assumptions of the game.

What assumptions would changed aside from cost?

[Kaidinah]

The main reason I want to see a sliding scale for tech cost is that its hard to run a "tech" game when you need absurd amounts of gold to run with tech. It feels bad when you ask someone "Why does your future cop use a bow?" and they answer "Because cheap." Even basic tech gizmos cost a huge portion of your WBL.

Its like how "Guns everywhere" on the Ultimate Combat sliding scale drastically changes who will be using a gun, since anyone can use them at a reasonable cost. Though "Guns everywhere" has the downside of sidelining armor without any alternatives. At least "tech everywhere" doesn't do that as much, since tech defensive items work on guns.

[Milo v3]

The main reason I want to see a sliding scale for tech cost is that its hard to run a "tech" game when you need absurd amounts of gold to run with tech. It feels bad when you ask someone "Why does your future cop use a bow?" and they answer "Because cheap." Even basic tech gizmos cost a huge portion of your WBL.

Its like how "Guns everywhere" on the Ultimate Combat sliding scale drastically changes who will be using a gun, since anyone can use them at a reasonable cost. Though "Guns everywhere" has the downside of sidelining armor without any alternatives. At least "tech everywhere" doesn't do that as much, since tech defensive items work on guns.

How do you deal with breaking WBL though?

[Mithril Leaf]

The chip actually has a price multiplier applied for technically being "slotless" (yes, it takes the Brain slot, but that's a slot specific to technology). So the math actually isn't that off.

Would that not double the 7500 price point?

[Milo v3]

Would that not double the 7500 price point?

Yeah.... Circlet = 7500. Slotless Circlet = 15000. Energizer = 36,400.

[Forrestfire]

Personal thoughts on those:

Armor v Natural Armor: Armor bonus makes more sense, I think.

I like that idea for Psi-Core, since it helps the non-Psionic archetypes fit into the fluff much more easily.

On sliding scales: This is a good thing, though the trick is going to be in figuring out where the default will be. I'm in favor of the "Mechs are used in war, not to take out the trash" location. Balanced in cost against equivalent magic, since magic might well have been involved in making them (though not in its operations after that). The way I see it, if a GM is including this reference, his world is very likely to account for it.

I can see it either way, though.

I agree with this. I think that overall, the cost of the tech items should be based on how difficult such an ability would be to get normally, based on WBL being a level gate and general indicator of what sorts of items a character will have at what levels. It feels like it needlessly punishes people who want to use technological items, compared to magic items, if the tech items are inflated arbitrarily just because they're tech.

At the same time, there are definitely some issues with tech and magic combining, and with some of the lower cost technological items (like the chainsaw). One thing that might work to deal with that for technological weapons and armor, at least, could be to slightly change how they interact with being enchanted. If a chainsaw is the equivalent of a +2 weapon on its own, then perhaps stating in its rules for this system that it's treated as a +2 weapon for the purposes of being enchanted, and pricing it as such, would be a possible solution. Could call it a complexity rating, with the idea being that more complex technological items are significantly more difficult to bind magic to as a result of all the "moving parts," so to speak, compared to something like a sword.

Perhaps an item with a Complexity of n counts as masterwork, and adds its complexity score to its enhancement bonus for the purposes of overcoming DR. Since in this scenario, the hypothetical Complex Chainsaw would count as a +2 weapon for being enchanted, you could stick weapon special abilities on it without needing it to have a +1 beforehand (that surcharge has already been paid), and the first +1 worth of enhancement or abilities would cost 10,000gp (the difference between +2 and +3), instead of 2,000gp as normal for a weapon.

This could also open up a decent amount of design space for more powerful technological weapons. A weapon of some strength could map to the power level expected out of some price of weapon (since it's no longer "just" a weapon, it's a weapon that's technologically advanced to the point that it rivals powerful magic), and you'd know that it would never quite overtake a normal weapon and break the game, because it has a power level cap built in. Some sort of wave motion antimatter rifle might be the equivalent of a +5 weapon, and have abilities and price to match. In practice, it's basically a unique sort of weapon that has abilities on par with a +5 weapon (maybe it does a lot of damage and blasts an entire square worth of area, while its aftermath rends magic to shreds).

[twas_Brillig]

I love it, both as a combined sci-fi/fantasy concept and an Escaflowne-y Magic Robots concept. This whole doc is wonderfully tropey, and I can't wait to see the other archetypes come out.
A couple thoughts:

• The squad leader archetype makes me think there should be a thrallherd variant centered around controlling mechs, or people in mechs, or brains-in-boxes controlling mechs.
• The Mech Pilots, Technological Feats, and Technological Weapons links at top of the Expanded Playtest doc require permissions, do not link to other parts of the doc. The other links seem to work as intended.
• Is there any actually mechanical effect for stuck to the string launcher? RAW nothing happens--except that the wielder needs to reel it in as a free action. Should movement be restricted? Automatic damage? Can it be used like a grappling hook, ala that one crossbow?
• The rocket glove should be explicit, re: interaction between charges and AP. From the flavor text I'm assuming that it's usable as a normal gauntlet without AP, or you can spend charge to attack with it with AP?
• If you're worried about mechs initiating, remember that any aegis with unrestricted customizations can potentially pick up Initiator's Soul. Actually, any manifester in a campaign with the Psionics Augmented: Soulknife can do that for part of the day via the Form Astral Armor power.

[Prime32]

I'm not sure if it fits the direction you're going, but what are your thoughts on "mech beasts" that have animal-level intelligence and embody the power of nature? I'm thinking instead of bonding to a lion as an animal companion, a druid can bond to an ancient lion construct. It can either fight on its own or be piloted by its owner, and while being piloted it can reconfigure into a humanoid form. Making it an animal companion archetype, gated behind feats if necessary, would potentially allow clerics, druids, oracles, paladins and rangers to access it, while still leaving room for a mech-based druid archetype that takes a different approach.

Separating the Mech Piloting feat from the Psi-Core Upgrade feat. Anyone, regardless of access to a PP pool, will be able to grab a mech, but having a psi-core in mainframe mode will give you some bonuses to piloting.

Sounds good.

Where do you guys feel you'd like that sliding scale to start? Do you think it's better for price and prereqs to assume a standard setting like Paizo's Golarion, where there might only be 1 mech piloting PC in the whole world, or do you want it to automatically assume that mechs are going to be everywhere?
The current design assumption, and my personal preference, is that things are priced and gated for a lower tech world where technology is exceedingly rare, and then the sliding scale would allow you to make technology cheaper and more accessible the farther you moved away from that assumption.

Maybe something like:

• No Mechs:
• Legendary Mechs: Mechs are considered artefacts, and the PCs are the only ones in the world with access to them. However, they have no logistics costs - either they automatically repair damage and replenish ammunition over time, or they come with artefact-level repair facilities.
• Black Box Mechs: The technology to create new mechs from scratch does not exist, but existing mechs can be repaired and modified. Many nations have access to them, but not in large numbers.
• Commonplace Mechs: Most nations have the ability to create mechs, but their cost means that they are used only by elite troops.
• Mechs Everywhere: Mech technology is widespread, with new models being developed at a breakneck pace. Armies consist entirely of mech pilots, and unarmed mechs are even used by civilians. Each PC gets a personal mech for free, or some kind of bonus if they already had a mech.

With "Black Box Mechs" as the default?

[PsyBomb]

The chip actually has a price multiplier applied for technically being "slotless" (yes, it takes the Brain slot, but that's a slot specific to technology). So the math actually isn't that off.

The thing with most technological items and weapons though (and what I'm primarily referring to), is that their base performance is higher than a non-tech, non-magical standard item or weapon. A chainsaw, for example, is in most ways as good as a +2 magical weapon. Same for non-magical laser weapons, rocket launchers, etc. So, if we want to play with those earlier, we need to tweak the assumptions of the game.

Actually, let's take a look at this. A Chainsaw is 2,700gp. A +1 Falchion is the closest comparable standard weapon and costs 2,375 (which puts it in the same range). Let's assume a level 6 Fighter with 22 effective strength, Weapon Training in the appropriate group, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, and Furious Focus. Target definition is 19 AC, On the initial attack, he'll charge and make one good attack. I'll skip writing out the calculations here, as I'm running it on my spreadsheet to make things quick.

Chainsaw is attacking at +16=6(BAB)+6(Str)+2(charge)+1(WF)+1(WT) for 90% accuracy
Chainsaw damage is 3d6+17 (9(Str)+6(PA)+1(WS)+1(WT), average 27.5)
Expected damage is 32.175 after crit and accuracy

Falchion is attacking at +17 (+1 enhancement over the Chainsaw) for 95% accuracy
Falchion damage is 2d4+18 (average 23, again, +1 enhancement over Chainsaw)
Expected damage is 28.405 after crit and accuracy

That is actually a very minor difference, let's see what happens on a standing full attack. Damage numbers are the same

Chainsaw is attacking at +14/+7, for 80% and 45% accuracy
Expected damage is 28.6 and 16.0875, totaling 44.6875

Falchion is attacking at +15/+8, for 85% and 50% accuracy
Expected damage is 25.415 and 14.95, totaling 40.365

Same thing happens here, but notably the falchion is going to fall steadily behind as the levels climb and different bonuses accrue. a +2 Falchion is 8,375gp, while a +1 Chainsaw is only 4,700. Size increases also HEAVILY favor the chainsaw.

Make of it what you will, I have to head out for the night.

[freduncio]

Reactor Knight's Overdrives ability requires him to expend his psionic focus... but he could only gain a psionic focus at 4th level, when he gets his first power points (exception being naturally psionic races). Maybe add a clause in Reduced Manifesting stating that he could gain psionic focus even without a power point reserve, OR give him a power point reserve of 1 from levels 1-3.

[Taveena]

How does Exotic Weapon Proficiency come into this? Seems like a Fauchard would be a fairer comparison, though admittedly the difference between 2d4 and 1d10 is only an extra 0.5 damage on average.