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2015-10-20, 04:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
Hello All,
So in the most recent comic "Giving up Hope" #1009 . We see Roy attack Durkula with his mighty green sword which he did not "activate" before. The concept of Roy holding back using his full power on Durkula has been coming up recently and in the discussion thread of this strip.
I understand that Roy might have thought that Durkula is actually a warped Durkon, and spared his sword but instead attempted to reason with him. However this line of thought would only work if killing Durkula would also permanently kill Durkon.
Roy and Durkula (pretending to be Durkon) were talking about resurrecting/restoring Durkon. Roy due to his lack of knowledge on the subject might have thought that such a process might be done (restoration) where killing Durkula would not be necessary, but he would also take the resurrection option, killing Durkula and raising Durkon.
What I am trying to convey here is that Roy has absolutely no logical reason to hold back attacking Durkula to begin with. Simply by attacking Roy in such a critical moment Durkula gives Roy all the reasons that would justify Roy killing Durkula on a silver platter. He can simply (figuratively) kill Durkula, eliminate a threat to the world, and resurrect the good old Durkon afterwards.
So the question is, why was Roy holding back attacking Durkula to begin with?Last edited by guguma; 2015-10-20 at 04:21 AM.
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2015-10-20, 04:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
It's not that Roy was deliberately holding back. He was just having a really hard time fighting his best friend, which was having a major impact on his combat performance. Roy's discovery that it isn't Durkon has the dual effect of removing that barrier and making Roy pissed that some evil force is imitating his dead friend.
As for the activation of the sword, it's been speculated that Roy cannot initiate the green glow at will - it appears to be a crit effect or something affected by Roy's emotions. Since Roy's heart wasn't in the fight up until this point, it didn't go off.
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2015-10-20, 04:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
He was holding back because his sword doesn't come with an on/off switch for his emotional state. While he was striking as best he could, his sword (which seems to be in tune with his emotions) reacted to his reluctance to fight and didn't activate its magic Destroy The Undead property until Roy gave up his reluctance. We know for a fact Roy's not in control of when the starmetal blade activates - at least, not consciously. So that's the major premise for 'holding back'.
Also, destroying Durkon's body seems to be dangerous. Malack's death to the sun is considered permanent, even when you consider much of Tarquin's group could have a pocket cleric for true resurrections. So... by the rules of this universe (which I'm not super familiar with), I'm just willing to guess they NEED Durkon's body to revive him conveniently. So...
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2015-10-20, 05:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
The green glow only seems to trigger when Roy is both very angry and fighting someone he hates. So far, it's triggered for Sabine (after she provoked him), Miko, Xykon, and now HPoH. The sword's effect didn't trigger until now against HPoH, because he was reluctant and conflicted, not angry.
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2015-10-20, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
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Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
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2015-10-20, 06:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
This.
Like is the usual thing of "you can't fight me if I take the appearance of one of your friends even if you know I'm not him/her". Or worse, "you can't fight me if I take YOUR appearance".
So far, Roy thought that he was facing evil-Durkon. That Durkon's attitude was slightly influenced by that. Ok, destroying him and having Durkon raised was supposed to have him back to normal, but it's kind a rude thing to do to a friend.
"I don't like the new you, I think the old one was the real one!"
If one of your friends change his attitude toward you because he god a boyfriend/girlfriend or a child or another change, you don't break this because you liked him better as he was. Even if he regrets what he was.Posting from France
Sorry for my accent.
Thanks to neoseph7 for my avatar (Allen Walker from D.Gray-Man)
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2015-10-20, 06:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
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2015-10-20, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Manchester, UK
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Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
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2015-10-20, 07:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
I understood that the spirit of Malack was merged into negative energy or something like that. So it's... totally destroyed. It's not like a soul that goes in an afterlife?
It makes it surprising that in #991, HPoH thinks he can sit at Hel's side as her chosen servant. Three obvious possibilities here:
- He doesn't know himself that it wouldn't work that way and that he's expendable.
- He intends to leave earth before it's destruction and get into Hel's hall through a spell.
- Vampires doesn't work like that and the spirit of a destroyed vampire acts like a soul. So technically, next time a vampire is created and Nerggal gets to put a soul into it, he could get Malack back on tracks. Except if only a new spirit can go in a new vampire.Posting from France
Sorry for my accent.
Thanks to neoseph7 for my avatar (Allen Walker from D.Gray-Man)
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2015-10-20, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2006
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Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
Well, he did, several times, power attack for non-lethal damage (I think that is the term), interpreted as hitting with the side of the blade, knocking durkula across the room.
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2015-10-20, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
Last edited by littlebum2002; 2015-10-20 at 08:36 AM.
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2015-10-20, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
Consider it this way.
You have a good friend and they have developed a mental illness.
There is a cure for the illness, but there is no guarrentee that fixing the illness will undo the affects on the mind.
You make allowances for them while they seek a cure.
One day they snap and become a threat to everyone around them and you try to stop them, but they are still talking to you as your friend and you respond in kind - hoping to break through to them.
Then they say/do something that makes it fully clear to you that your friend is not home anymore and whatever mental illness they have effectively makes them a different person (and a person that your friend would hate), and they are still a threat to everyone around them.
At this point the dynamic changes from trying to get through to the person they are deep down - to trying to honour the person they were.
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2015-10-20, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
And against Malack's mummies in the pyramid...
Last edited by Quebbster; 2015-10-20 at 09:25 AM. Reason: Added link
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2015-10-20, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
They're Draketooth and Girard pissed him big time .
Plus that guy they used a Resurrection spell on for nothing.
Plus that guy with the rift joke.
Deep inside, Roy hates the Draketooth!
Well, he did, several times, power attack for non-lethal damage (I think that is the term), interpreted as hitting with the side of the blade, knocking durkula across the room.Posting from France
Sorry for my accent.
Thanks to neoseph7 for my avatar (Allen Walker from D.Gray-Man)
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2015-10-20, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
And against Girard's Gate. Roy secretly hates the whole world and wants to see it snarled.
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2015-10-20, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
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2015-10-20, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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- Italy
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
I want argue, also, the sword is providing healing in a certain condition ? is a green hilt, green glowing magical sword. if is not this the dramatic time to discover a new feat, when would be ?
The poor Roy has got only a weapon upgrade, while the bard has gotten two, and he fights like an incontinent weasel.
I mean, Rich (hey, awesome job!) fixes art if an error is notice, and has not fixed the lacking of injury in Roy.*
* (if is not a silent heal cast by an invisible niece of Redclock luring around)
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2015-10-20, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Manchester, UK
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Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
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2015-10-20, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
I know that (including the presumably), but I'm letting it aside, I don't care here.
What I'm wondering if is Malack could come back. I mean, with memories of Tarquin and stuff, with same memories.
Main requirement: Malack (the vampire) spirit wasn't destroyed when the vampire was destroyed and remains somewhere in Nerggal's home or can be extracted from the negative energy plane without losing much.
Another big requirement: That spirit can be put in another new vampire (or undead, or being), even if it's not the corpse of the shaman that became Malack (HPoH and Veldrina mentionned that vampires fakes organic corpse and are only negative energy. Weird thing), even if it's not a cleric (Malack would have the class and levels of that new being though, would be strange to him). And the new memories to absorb wouldn't transform him.
In shorter:
Durkon's corpse is being driven around like a stagecoach by an evil spirit.
Can that evil spirit take another stagecoach at all? Can it leave and get back on that said stagecoach?Posting from France
Sorry for my accent.
Thanks to neoseph7 for my avatar (Allen Walker from D.Gray-Man)
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2015-10-20, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
Consider this: If memories are tied to souls, the only reason we don't see epic sorcerer/wizard babies, I'd imagine, is that souls aren't recycled. Why should souls derived from the negative energy plane differ?
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2015-10-20, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
For the class and levels, the answer is in my parenthesis: (Malack would have the class and levels of that new being though, would be strange to him)
For the memories, because it would be an equivalent of a resurrection spell for a undead rather than of a reincarnation thing.
Grmbl, I checked every page of the new book before checking Hel's speech in the last page of BRitF.
HPoH's spirit was birthed in Hel's hall. Even if HPoH was sired by Nergal.
Hel had the possibility to put that spirit in Durkon because Durkon was in her purview. It was wondered for some time if that spirit was created before Durkon's death or at that exact moment. The later seems the good answer, but if a vampire's spirit isn't destroyed when the vampire is destroyed and goes back to his god's hall, couldn't it get back to a body the same way it did the first time? Because it was birthed in the hall after all.Posting from France
Sorry for my accent.
Thanks to neoseph7 for my avatar (Allen Walker from D.Gray-Man)
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2015-10-20, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
(Avatar by Ava)
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2015-10-20, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-10-20, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
Since when is the human race logical?
What makes you think Roy is CAPABLE of turning off his emotions and putting his full force into murdering his best friend? It's one thing to know what he has to do, it's quite another to have the resolve to do it without any hesitation, fear, or doubt. Maybe some part of him can't handle the guilt. Maybe some part of him is scared Durkon won't return to his body when the resurrection magic calls. Maybe he's just too emotional to set all his doubts aside no matter if he knows it's the logical thing to do.
Tell you what. Someday if you need to decide whether a friend lives or dies, come back here and tell us how easy it was to make a calm, logical choice.
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2015-10-20, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-10-20, 03:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
I would be inclined to say not. For a start, becoming a vampire at all is an incredibly rare thing in the Stickverse, per word of Giant: the idea that someone could become a vampire, get destroyed as a vampire and then rezzed, then turn into a vampire again with the same spirit from before riding it seems such a low probability as to be not worth considering. Given that, what use would there be in putting a vampire spirit who's accumulated memories and experiences from one person into a completely different one? It would just make it harder for them to fool people that they're the person in question, because the previous memories would be colouring their opinions.
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2015-10-20, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
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2015-10-20, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
I disagree that a vampire has to act as a person he took over, defaultly. Durkula was a special case, since the charade got him conveniently to the godsmoot and was also the first one done by Hel, ever. Another vampire might just as well be glad to get some experience from his previous ''session.''
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
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2015-10-20, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-10-20, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea
I can agree that Roy was holding back his emotions and that might have stopped the green power to come, but from a drawing perspective this attack dont look that big.
Its cool with all the lights and drama related, but the one Roy did right before receiving harm seem much more severe.
Take a look at it...seems like Roy destroyed the armor and only slashed a bit of flesh and the beard....no vital organs hit.
While right before receiving the harm attack Roy cut halfway through Durkon possibly cutting half of his lungs, digestive system and breaking several bones and muscles in the process...no man could survive that attack...and right before that Roy perfurated Durkon's liver or spleen and impaled Durkon.
Only indication of Roy holding back was several non-damage attacks that only throwed Durkon away.