Things You Never Noticed V: Your Familiar

[Kurald Galain]

Haley isn't bluffing, she keeps her promises.

[littlebum2002]

What Hinjo says in strip 302 "it is a time for new beginnings and new plotlines which may or may not be immediately apparent"
This is almost for sure our reference to the new story arc that's happening.

This happened almost a year ago in comic. I think he was referring to "NOW it is a time for new beginnings and new plotlines", not "in a year from now"

[Vinyadan]

I never noticed that Mouse is black.

[ti'esar]

General Chang's cape seemingly disappeared after he died.

[Bird]

I never noticed that Mouse is black.

Who, now?


*limitdance

[Ron Miel]

One of the twelve gods.

Although I think he's actually Rat.

[Bird]

Ah, thanks--that's what tripped me up.

[Ruck]

I remember the first time reading the BRitF storyline that some of the forum posters were surprised (or thought it was bad characterization) that Tarquin eventually melted down and revealed himself to be a delusional control freak who couldn't handle anything outside his conception of how the story was "supposed to go."

Eventually I went back and read the book again. All the way back in #758, panel 7:

As I may have mentioned, Malack and I were members of an adventuring party back in the day. I was the leader, in fact, as you are the leader of your little band. After my defeat, I gathered them together.

Emphasis mine. 150 strips before Malack dies, we have evidence that Tarquin is delusional about his role in his party.

[ti'esar]

To be fair, strictly speaking that wasn't evidence at the time. Until we met members besides Malack and his preference for a low profile, there was no reason to believe Tarquin wasn't the leader of his party. (Apart from the fact that he's a borderline pathological liar, but that's not proof he's lying in any particular case).

[Syldar]

It was evidence he was delusional, though. Notice the second part: "just like you are the leader of your little band." He thinks Elan is the leader of the OotS. And the "just like" is extra foreshadowing icing on the 87-layer plot cake: he says Elan's just as much a leader as he is... and he's right, in a way that he isn't fond of.

[Kish]

Yes, but everyone who didn't get that he was delusional long before he started acting overtly nonfunctional as a result of delusionality is also someone who believed he was the leader of his party even after we saw the other members of it treat him with borderline contempt.

(To be fair, I believed he was the leader, too, until Laurin and Miron showed up and acted like he wasn't.)

[Ruck]

It was evidence he was delusional, though. Notice the second part: "just like you are the leader of your little band." He thinks Elan is the leader of the OotS. And the "just like" is extra foreshadowing icing on the 87-layer plot cake: he says Elan's just as much a leader as he is... and he's right, in a way that he isn't fond of.

Yes, exactly. That's what I meant.

[Ruck]

Also, it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize one of the ways in which Pompey is Vaarsuvius' evil opposite.

[Caractacus]

Yes, but everyone who didn't get that he was delusional long before he started acting overtly nonfunctional as a result of delusionality is also someone who believed he was the leader of his party even after we saw the other members of it treat him with borderline contempt.

(To be fair, I believed he was the leader, too, until Laurin and Miron showed up and acted like he wasn't.)

Hmm...that said, Roy leads our team, and the arguing and criticism there is pretty serious.

I have never thought that Tarquin didn't lead the team in the sense that he was subordinate to anyone else - it seems to me that he probably IS the planner in the outfit, it's just that he can't give orders without a rationale. Maybe that make him not a leader. Hmm. I suppose that Roy can give orders without explaining (can't think of instances, but there you go), but there is a reason for that: half the party is definitely NOT any good at leading by virtue of Durkon being, well, congenitally unable to lead, and Elan and Belkar being Chaotic+daft/psychotic. Haley can plan, and V is intelligent, but we know in what ways they aren't cut out to lead.

My (rambling) point is that just because Tarquin's gang of friends are sarcastic and critical doesn't necessarily mean that they are cut out to lead, so he may plan, organise and run the group, but as more of an administrator than the traditional gung-ho, follow-me type of leader.

I feel that his delusional nature about his own importance doesn't have to require that he's wrong/lying about his position in the party - just that 'leading' that party means something other than dictating to its members what is to be done. (Blah blah blah - sorry, thinking aloud here...)

[Jasdoif]

Hmm...that said, Roy leads our team, and the arguing and criticism there is pretty serious.

I have never thought that Tarquin didn't lead the team in the sense that he was subordinate to anyone else - it seems to me that he probably IS the planner in the outfit, it's just that he can't give orders without a rationale. Maybe that make him not a leader. Hmm. I suppose that Roy can give orders without explaining (can't think of instances, but there you go), but there is a reason for that: half the party is definitely NOT any good at leading by virtue of Durkon being, well, congenitally unable to lead, and Elan and Belkar being Chaotic+daft/psychotic. Haley can plan, and V is intelligent, but we know in what ways they aren't cut out to lead.

My (rambling) point is that just because Tarquin's gang of friends are sarcastic and critical doesn't necessarily mean that they are cut out to lead, so he may plan, organise and run the group, but as more of an administrator than the traditional gung-ho, follow-me type of leader.

I feel that his delusional nature about his own importance doesn't have to require that he's wrong/lying about his position in the party - just that 'leading' that party means something other than dictating to its members what is to be done. (Blah blah blah - sorry, thinking aloud here...)

In case it helps clarify your thoughts, here's someone else's thoughts about Tarquin's place in the Vector Legion:

If you bought into Tarquin's story that Tarquin was a competent chessmaster when all of the evidence in the comic points to him being a quasi-delusional control freak that needs to be reigned in by one of his allies half the time, that's on you. I gave you the evidence to see what he was, you just chose to believe his spin instead and then criticize me for not living up to it. The characterization is consistent all the way through—including the part where he talks himself up to be the central character in his group's history. But look at the way Laurin and Miron talk to him; does that sound like people who think he's the mastermind that got them to where they are? Or does it sound like how people talk to Elan? Why do you think that strip was even in there, except to reveal that Tarquin's version of his place in the group had been inflated by Tarquin?

Tarquin provides insight into narrative roles that translates to actual concrete power in the OOTS world. You can make plans based on those things and they work. Basically, his contribution was to take five powerful evil people and keep them from making the same mistakes that clichéd villains always make. He has since revised that into believing that he is their leader and master strategist. He is, in a very real way, the Elan of his team, only his team's goal is conquer everything instead of save the world.

There's certainly been no evidence presented in the comic that Tarquin has even a passing understanding of valid military strategy, or political strategy, or personal relationships. What he understands are stories, and it just so happens that he was born into a world where that actually can help you win…for a while.

Well, it's an analogy, not a perfect substitution. Maybe I oversold it when I said they treat him like Elan, but the main point was that he had overstated his own agency in their mutual plan. He may have had the initial concept, but if he had been left to run it himself it would have certainly failed, precisely because he would have had no one to keep him from going off the deep end at the first bump in the road. It's not a coincidence that Tarquin's breakdown started with Malack's death.

[Ruck]

Hmm...that said, Roy leads our team, and the arguing and criticism there is pretty serious.

I have never thought that Tarquin didn't lead the team in the sense that he was subordinate to anyone else - it seems to me that he probably IS the planner in the outfit, it's just that he can't give orders without a rationale. Maybe that make him not a leader. Hmm. I suppose that Roy can give orders without explaining (can't think of instances, but there you go), but there is a reason for that: half the party is definitely NOT any good at leading by virtue of Durkon being, well, congenitally unable to lead, and Elan and Belkar being Chaotic+daft/psychotic. Haley can plan, and V is intelligent, but we know in what ways they aren't cut out to lead.

My (rambling) point is that just because Tarquin's gang of friends are sarcastic and critical doesn't necessarily mean that they are cut out to lead, so he may plan, organise and run the group, but as more of an administrator than the traditional gung-ho, follow-me type of leader.

I feel that his delusional nature about his own importance doesn't have to require that he's wrong/lying about his position in the party - just that 'leading' that party means something other than dictating to its members what is to be done. (Blah blah blah - sorry, thinking aloud here...)

My point is still that you can see his delusion when he says that Elan is the leader of the Order of the Stick, regardless of what we know about Tarquin's status in his own party then or now (although it does seem to be closer to Elan's than Roy's).

[Keltest]

Correct me if im wrong, but at the time he made that comment, wasn't Tarquin not aware that Roy and Belkar were members of the Order? Going back through the comics, I can certainly see how Tarquin would be under the impression that Elan is the leader of the band, if only because no shots of any significance to anyone but Elan were called that he would be aware of.

[Jasdoif]

Correct me if im wrong, but at the time he made that comment, wasn't Tarquin not aware that Roy and Belkar were members of the Order?

He strongly hinted that he had already assumed they were all a team, simply by virtue of being multiple high-level adventurers that showed up at the same time; and he'd met Roy and Belkar (and commented on Roy's martial prowess) in 753, a few comics before the comment about Elan being the leader was made.

Going back through the comics, I can certainly see how Tarquin would be under the impression that Elan is the leader of the band, if only because no shots of any significance to anyone but Elan were called that he would be aware of.

I got a distinct "Haley's in charge" vibe from Elan's behavior in front of Tarquin, myself.

[Pyrous]

He strongly hinted that he had already assumed they were all a team, simply by virtue of being multiple high-level adventurers that showed up at the same time; and he'd met Roy and Belkar (and commented on Roy's martial prowess) in 753, a few comics before the comment about Elan being the leader was made.

I got a distinct "Haley's in charge" vibe from Elan's behavior in front of Tarquin, myself.

Agreed on both counts.

EDIT: I guess Haley learned something about leadership in DStP, after all.

[rodneyAnonymous]

In case it helps clarify your thoughts, here's someone else's thoughts about Tarquin's place in the Vector Legion:

There's certainly been no evidence presented in the comic that Tarquin has even a passing understanding of valid military strategy, or political strategy, or personal relationships.

I disagree that there has been no evidence presented in the comic that Tarquin understands military strategy. Malack learned "a few things about attrition" from him.

[Kish]

While I don't think Malack's opinion of Tarquin's tactical acuity is strong evidence, considering Malack got fatally outmaneuvered by Nale...

Eh, hyperbole on my part. He's probably average for a warrior his level, just not nearly good enough to pull off the things he's done strictly through military strategy.

EDIT: This is why I'm sorta starting to hate the out-of-context quoting; because I tend to exaggerate when speaking extemporaneously and describe things out of proportion to what I really intended when I wrote the scenes. I should learn to just stop talking about it, because everytime I say something I end up changing everyone's view of the events in the story, and I would be better served letting the story stand on its own and ignoring the critics.

[ti'esar]

I always thought that was the joke. We interpret that line one way - as a compliment - when we first read it, and then later after we see that Tarquin doesn't have much more tactical flair beyond abusing attrition, we can go back and see that it's actually some stealth snark on Malack's part.

(Are we really having an argument about Tarquin's competence here?)

[Peelee]

I always thought that was the joke. We interpret that line one way - as a compliment - when we first read it, and then later after we see that Tarquin doesn't have much more tactical flair beyond abusing attrition, we can go back and see that it's actually some stealth snark on Malack's part.

It could be even more backhanded than that; there's nothing saying that Tarquin was particularly good at attrition, and honestly, I doubt that he would have the patience for a war of attrition. Conversely, Malack has nothing but time, being immortal and all, and can easily afford patience when it suits him. I now read that line similar to "I know the best way to wear someone down, thanks to all the practice I've had on Tarquin."

[Yendor]

The irony is that Nale, who Tarquin treated with such contempt, really was the leader of his party.

[Ruck]

I always thought that was the joke. We interpret that line one way - as a compliment - when we first read it, and then later after we see that Tarquin doesn't have much more tactical flair beyond abusing attrition, we can go back and see that it's actually some stealth snark on Malack's part.

(Are we really having an argument about Tarquin's competence here?)

Yeah, I think this is the most likely explanation, given Malack's anger toward Tarquin in #845 and that he refers to him as a "fool" in #870.

The other interesting alternative is, as someone in the linked thread pointed out, that Malack was sincere, but only because he doesn't value human life. i.e. Tarquin is not very good at using attrition, but even so, he has shown Malack that it works if you don't care about the soldiers you lose.

[Dr.Zero]

Well, I find the route this thread has taken interesting, at least as a reason to advocate the principle of the "Death of the Author".

IRL, if we saw the debate between Miron, Laurin and Tarquin, we would have concluded that they are a group working on a "favour based system" (that is, in itself, almost the only practical way to make a LE group work together, to be honest) and that yes, they -as the same Malack- see the dramatic tendencies of Tarquin as some sort of eccentricity, like if someone IRL believed in prophecies, but nothing more than that.

IRL, we would have never doubted of the authority of Tarquin within his group, at least to some extent, since he managed to get his son Nale alive till when he decided to kill him by himself. For example saying to Laurin to "stay professional", while she wanted to avenge Malack and while Nale was mockingly grinning at Laurin, too.

IRL if we had Tarquin saying to one of his old friends to man up about the death of his "family" (ok, they were spawns, but for Malack they were close enough to a family) we would have never doubted that Tarquin was the "cold", planning and leading one of the two, specially if the aforementioned old friend agreed on that course, eventually.

IRL if we saw Tarquin alone kicking the whole (V aside) OOTS' asses, and that same old friend raging about it because Tarquin was "showboating" and indulging in the curiosity of testing his son, we would have never doubted that he was an awesome warrior, since how he alone was able to fight our heroes, while not even fighting for real.

And after that scene, with Tarquin's apologies, no one would have doubted of his maturity.

IRL we would have no doubt about Malack being serious, and not sarcastic, when he says the sentence about "spend time with a general of Tarquin's caliber", because they are friend and because Malack fundamentally always followed Tarquin's leadership and he had not the slightest reason to be sarcastic toward Tarquin in a fight with Durkon.

And, hey, because Tarquin is really the general planning the things. Which bring us to the last point.

And last, but not least, IRL if we knew that the whole plan to conquer the continent was created by Tarquin, we would have been in awe of his pure (even if evil) genius. I mean, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar and Napoleon didn't do much more than Tarquin has done already and they are history's legends.

And yet we are comparing him to Elan.

So, regarding this whole "quote" thing, I think I can only repeat what is written in the aforementioned tvtropes page: "Intentions are one thing. What was actually accomplished might be something very different."thi

Edit: some of the many grammatical errors

[Vinyadan]

What I read in the comic is the story of a cunning group of adventurers who managed to gain control of a few kingdoms and act as puppeteers. Tarquin doesn't really need to be an amazing general - a Scipio or Hannibal or Napoleon - but he could be a Pompey: a very good general, better than most, and who knows how to use his troops. That's how I understand him. And I also understand him as a man hellbent on certain things, and who can throw everything and any caution away for the sake of them. That doesn't make him a bad commander in general, but it makes him a person with control issues. I also wouldn't be surprised if this had been his first breakdown.

I prefer not to read the Giant's comments, because I'd have to go fishing around them and it would be a headache to get them in context of the discussion and of each other.

[Peelee]

But this story doesn't take place IRL. It takes place in a world where understanding of wtory structure translates to real power. Where a million to one chance means it will almost certainly happen. The rules are different, and you can't compare to RL scenarios sometimes.

Case in point: apologozing to a longtime friend takes on a slightly different meaning when that longtime friend is a vampire that looks like he's about to go in full-rage mode.

[Dr.Zero]

But this story doesn't take place IRL. It takes place in a world where understanding of wtory structure translates to real power. Where a million to one chance means it will almost certainly happen. The rules are different, and you can't compare to RL scenarios sometimes.

When I used the "IRL" example, my point was not to compare the two worlds.
Was to compare the two different ways to read the story.
Judging the story for itself (like we were watching it without "commentaries", like we were "living" it) vs judging the story for what were the intentions of the writer.
To put it in a simpler, even if a bit more blunt way: I don't care if Rich wanted to show Tarquin as an evil fool, mirroring Elan, if then the story didn't show him that way.
If the story showed a guy who managed to organize, and so far to accomplish too, the conquest of a good portion of a continent, I judge the guy from it. And the guy so far is history book material.
If the story showed that Tarquin was able to shield Nale from his team's fury and revenge, I judge the authority of Tarquin on that team from this, between the other things, not from what was intended.
And so on, with all the points above, that I don't want to repeat.
Of course, I judge even the fact that his team mates consider him eccentric (it was one of the first thing Malack pointed out), but still they follow a plan he created.

This is the concept behind the "Death of the author" that I embrace completely.

Case in point: apologozing to a longtime friend takes on a slightly different meaning when that longtime friend is a vampire that looks like he's about to go in full-rage mode.

We could argue about the chances of Tarquin losing against a guy who was for some time on par with Durkon, while Tarquin did show a moment before to be on par with the whole OOTS (V aside).

But it would not be the point, because the example was not about strength but how he faced the conflict.

Whatever the reason being fear (of Malack? of the fact that if he fight Malack, Nale and his friend would have waited that the two of them were hurt to finish them both?), friendship or mere convenience, Tarquin didn't want to fight Malack.
And he took the mature way to avoid that fight which can be summarized as: "Ehi, you know? You have a point. Next time I will be as professional as I asked you to be. Sorry mate!"

I think Roy wouldn't have acted differently, for example.

[Mordae]

I never noticed that an off-hand observation could cause a 20+ post derailment in this forum. Err, yeah, I guess I've noticed that about this forum.

Also, I never noticed that poor Franken-golem fell into the abyss in 578.