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2015-10-23, 05:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Optimizing Pestilential Touch -- Is This Legal?
I'm attempting to optimize the Pestilential Touch ability of the Nosomatic Chirugeon prestige class from Dragonmarked. Unlike other attempts that I have been able to find, I am trying to expand the ability to allow casting of other spells. I think I have found an interesting chain of abilities that will allow this, but I would like to get some second opinions from my fellow playgrounders.
For this thought experiment, I am proposing the following build:
Spoiler: The Build
Race: Glimmerskin Halfling
32pt: 10(8) str, 16(18) dex, 14 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 14 cha
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
All ability boosts go to Dex
Spells KnownLevel Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features 1st Warlock 1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Heal 4, Intimidate 1, Knowledge(nature) 2(cc), Knowledge(religion) 2, Sense Motive 1, Survival 2(cc) Least Dragnmark(Mark of Healing: lesser restoration) eldritch blast 1d6, summon swarm invocation 2nd Warlock 2 +1 +0 +0 +3 Heal 5, Intimidate 1, Knowledge(nature) 2(cc), Knowledge(religion) 2, Sense Motive 2, Survival 2(cc) detect magic, baleful utterance invocation 3rd Warlock 3 +2 +1 +1 +3 Heal 6, Intimidate 1, Knowledge(nature) 3(cc), Knowledge(religion) 2, Sense Motive 3, Survival 3(cc) Touchstone(City of the Dead) Damage Reduction 1/cold iron, eldritch blast 2d6 4th Warlock 4 +3 +1 +1 +4 Heal 7, Intimidate 1, Knowledge(nature) 3(cc), Knowledge(religion) 2, Sense Motive 3, Spellcraft 1, Survival 3(cc) Deceive Item, see the unseen invocation 5th Binder 1 +3 +3 +1 +6 Heal 8, Intimidate 1, Knowledge(nature) 4(cc), Knowledge(religion) 2, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 1, Survival 4(cc) Soulbinding 6th Nosomatic Chirurgeon 1 +3 +5 +1 +8 Heal 8, Intimidate 1, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 6, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 1, Survival 4 Mother Cyst, Lesser Dragonmark(Mark of Healing: restoration){Heir's Mark} Heir's Mark, Nosomatic Chirurgery, Pestilential Touch, Adept Spellcasting, Oracle domain, eldritch blast 3d6 7th Sand Shaper 1 +3 +5 +1 +10 Heal 8, Intimidate 1, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4, Survival 4 Desert Insight, Dust Magic, Sand Shape 8th Ruathar 1 +3 +5 +3 +12 Heal 8, Intimidate 1, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4, Spot 8, Survival 4 Word of Friendship, Gift of the Elves, eldritch chain blast shape, summon swarm invocation -> eldritch glaive blast shape 9th Ruathar 2 +4 +5 +4 +13 Heal 8, Hide 8, Intimidate 1, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4, Spot 8, Survival 4 Practiced Spellcaster(Warlock) Low-light Vision, Elfwise, eldritch blast 4d6 10th Unseen Seer 1 +4 +5 +4 +15 Heal 8, Hide 8, Intimidate 1, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(the planes) 4, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6, Spot 8, Survival 4, Speak Language(Infernal) Damage Bonus +1d6, sudden swarm invocation 11th Unseen Seer 2 +5 +5 +4 +16 Heal 8, Hide 8, Intimidate 1, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(the planes) 12, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6, Spot 8, Survival 4, Speak Language(Infernal) Advanced Learning(hunter's eye), eldritch blast 5d6 12th Unseen Seer 3 +6 +6 +5 +16 Heal 8, Hide 8, Intimidate 4(cc), Knowledge(arcana) 2, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(the planes) 12, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6, Spot 8, Survival 4, Speak Language(Infernal) Weapon Finesse Divination Spell Power +1, hellrime blast eldritch essence 13th Unseen Seer 4 +7 +6 +5 +17 Heal 8, Hide 8, Intimidate 6(cc), Knowledge(arcana) 6, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(the planes) 12, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6, Spot 8, Survival 4, Speak Language(Infernal) Damage Bonus +2d6, eldritch blast 6d6, vitriolic blast eldritch essence 14th Hellfire Warlock 1 +7 +6 +5 +19 Heal 8, Hide 8, Intimidate 6, Knowledge(arcana) 10, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(the planes) 12, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6, Spot 8, Survival 4, Speak Language(Infernal) Hellfire Blast +2d6 15th Hellfire Warlock 2 +8 +6 +5 +20 Heal 8, Hide 8, Intimidate 6, Knowledge(arcana) 14, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(the planes) 12, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6, Spot 8, Survival 4, Speak Language(Infernal) Infernal Adept(humanoid shape invocation) Hellfire Blast +4d6, Hellfire Infusion, Resistance to Fire 10, chilling tentacles invocation 16th Hellfire Warlock 3 +9 +7 +6 +20 Heal 8, Hide 8, Intimidate 6, Knowledge(arcana) 18, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(the planes) 12, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6, Spot 8, Survival 4, Speak Language(Infernal) Hellfire Blast +6d6, Hellfire Shield, eldritch blast 7d6 17th Unseen Seer 5 +9 +7 +6 +20 Heal 8, Hide 8, Intimidate 6, Knowledge(arcana) 20, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(the planes) 12, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 12, Spot 8, Survival 4, Speak Language(Infernal) Advanced Learning(eye of stone), Guarded Mind, nightmares made real invocation 18th Unseen Seer 6 +10 +8 +7 +21 Concentration 2, Heal 8, Hide 8, Intimidate 6, Knowledge(arcana) 21, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(the planes) 12, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 19, Spot 8, Survival 4, Speak Language(Infernal) Combat Reflexes Divination Spell Power +2, dark foresight invocation 19th Unseen Seer 7 +11 +8 +7 +21 Concentration 4, Heal 8, Hide 8, Intimidate 6, Knowledge(arcana) 22, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(the planes) 12, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 22, Spot 8, Survival 4, Speak Language(Infernal) Damage Bonus +3d6, eldritch blast 8d6 20th Unseen Seer 8 +12 +8 +7 +22 Concentration 10, Heal 8, Hide 8, Intimidate 6, Knowledge(arcana) 23, Knowledge(nature) 4, Knowledge(the planes) 12, Knowledge(religion) 2, Search 9, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 23, Spot 8, Survival 4, Speak Language(Infernal) Advanced Learning(moment of prescience), path of shadow invocation
- bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, endure elements, parching touch, speak with animals, summon desert ally I, necrotic awareness
- eagle's splendor, fox's cunning, heat metal, owl's wisdom, resist energy, summon desert ally II, summon swarm, necrotic cyst, necrotic scrying, hunter's eye
- control sand, desiccate, dispel magic, dominate animal, haboob, slipsand, summon desert ally III, sunstroke, tormenting thirst, wind wall, necrotic bloat
- blast of sand, summon desert ally IV, wall of sand, wither, necrotic domination
- choking sands, flaywind burst, flesh to salt, summon desert ally V, transmute sand to stone, transmute stone to sand, necrotic burst
- awaken sand, mummify, sandstorm, summon desert ally VI, necrotic eruption, eye of stone
- mass flesh to salt, summon desert ally VII, necrotic tumor
- summon desert ally VIII, whirlwind, necrotic empowerment, moment of prescience
- summon desert ally IX, necrotic termination
I'll start with the basic setup of the trick: combine Warlock Invocations with the Pestilential Touch ability from Nosomatic Chirurgeon to get at-will use of 'inflict' spells. This has been discussed at length several times and is often cited as a way to allow invocation users to count as real spellcasters for prestige class requirements. The important details to keep in mind about this ability are:
- You can now cast spells spontaneously.
- The ability does not specify if these spells are arcane or divine, but since you are 'converting' an arcane SLA it is reasonable to assume that these are arcane spells.
- The ability does not grant you knowledge of the inflict spells by RAW; the ability does not require knowing the spells to cast them.
- The ability does not grant you a spell list of any kind, nor do you gain spells per day or spell slots from this ability.
The next part of the trick is the special wording on Nosomatic Chirurgeon's spellcasting feature. Unlike most prestige classes that advance spellcasting, this class grants you the spellcasting of an Adept if you 'have no levels in a spellcasting class.' Warlocks are not a spellcasting class. Binders are not a spellcasting class. Therefore, this ability grants you the spellcasting of an Adept. Adepts are prepared divine spellcasters. Nosomatic Chirurgeon is an Eberron prestige class, therefore it stands to reason that this ability grants the spellcasting of Eberron Adepts. Eberron Adepts gain the benefit of 1 domain of their choice. It is important to note that this Adept spellcasting is gained in addition to advancing the invocation and eldritch blast progression of Warlock. Warlocks benefit from prestige classes that advance spellcasting. The two parts of this ability are not mutually exclusive and warlocks qualify for both parts simultaneously, therefore they gain both benefits. The important detail to keep in mind about this ability is:
- You can now prepare and cast divine spells from the Adept list.
The next part of the trick is the Mother Cyst feat. This feat grants access to cyst spells. It also explicitly states: "You cast these spells like any other spell you can cast". You can cast inflict spells through the Pestilential Touch ability. The feat further states: "if you are a caster who prepares spells, you can prepare all necrotic cyst spells without referring to a spellbook, as if you had the Spell Mastery feat for each such spell." The Spell Mastery feat only applies to "spells you already know." This feat therefore grants you access to these spells, allows you to cast them through Pestilential Touch, and gives you a set of spells known. The important details to keep in mind about this ability are:
- You can now convert SLA uses into the spells associated with the Mother Cyst feat in addition to inflict spells.
- You know the spells associated with the Mother Cyst feat.
The next part of the trick is the Desert Insight ability of the Sand Shaper prestige class. This ability grants you knowledge of a list of spells. It explicitly states: "If you are a spontaneous caster (such as a sorcerer), these spells are available to you like any other spell you know." You are a spontaneous caster and you know the spells associated with the Mother Cyst feat. These spells are thus added to your known spells and available to cast via the Pestilential Touch ability. The important details to keep in mind about this ability are:
- You can now convert SLA uses into the spells listed in the Desert Insight ability in addition to inflict spells and the spells associated with the Mother Cyst feat.
- You know the list of Desert Insight spells in addition to the spells associated with the Mother Cyst feat.
The final part of the trick is the Advanced Learning ability of the Unseen Seer prestige class. This ability states: "you can add a new spell to your spellbook or list of spells known" The spell can be from any list, but must be a divination spell no higher than your highest level arcane spell you already know. It further states: "Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to your spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on your list." You have a list of spells known that includes the spells associated with the Desert Insight ability and the Mother Cyst feat. You convert arcane SLAs into these spells via Pestilential Touch. This ability therefore lets you add divination spells to your list of known spells and allows them to be cast using the Pestilential Touch ability.
Using the build I listed at the beginning, you should gain the ability convert your Warlock Invocations into any Mother Cyst feat spell, any Desert Insight spell, any inflict spell, and any divination spells you select with Advanced Learning using your Pestilential Touch ability. Your Warlock Invocations are at-will. This therefore provides you a list of 64 spells that you can cast at-will. This is significantly more versatile than the 8 inflict spells granted by the base ability.
Does anyone see any flaws in the logic here? I realize that this trick, like all tricks, is subject to DM approval. It is almost certainly not RAI, but I think it works RAW. Thoughts?
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2015-10-23, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing Pestilential Touch -- Is This Legal?
Mother Cyst plus Nosomatic? Oh man that is SIIIIIIIICK. :3
I'm not sure if the Unseen Seer spells work with Pestilent Touch. I'll check it out.Last edited by Snowbluff; 2015-10-23 at 12:06 PM.
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2015-10-26, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing Pestilential Touch -- Is This Legal?
So since I have this thread here, I thought I might take this opportunity to post my additional musings regarding the pestilential touch ability. I would welcome any thoughts from anyone on any of these.
- Pestilential touch is listed as a Su ability. Does this mean the spells it lets you cast are considered supernatural? I would imagine that this designation would mean that using the ability to cast does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but would it also mean the spells require no components and bypass SR? If so, the untyped inflict spells potentially become very attractive metamagic platforms. Personally, I interpret this to mean that converting the SLA is Su, but all it does is let you cast. You still cast the spell like normal and the action associated as well as interaction with SR and components are as normal for the spell.
- Can you apply metamagic feats to the spells that you cast with this ability? I'm inclined to say no since you don't have slots, but you do have an effective level of allowed spell. Would an empowered inflict light wounds spell be cast-able if you converted a 3rd level SLA? You would probably need the rapid metamagic feat to avoid the full-round extension aspect of metamagic on spontaneous spells. If nothing else, automatic metamagic applications (like mastery of day and night for auto-maximize) should definitely apply.
- Truenamers get at-will SLAs called utterances. Unlike most SLAs, utterances can be heightened without limit by increasing the check DC. Could you heighten a 1st level utterance to 8th level (+28 to DC) then convert that 8th level SLA into mass inflict critical wounds using pestilential touch? Would you even need to attempt the truespeak check? Nosomatic Chirurgeon might be the best prestige class for Truenamers to give them some at-will combat tricks that don't run afoul of the laws of resistance or sequence. (Combined with the mother cyst trick might get very interesting too)
- What is the caster level of spells cast using this ability? I've been assuming it would be the caster level of the SLA you converted, but the ability doesn't actually specify. Since it isn't specified, would it then default to character level per the default rules for supernatural abilities?
- What action is required to cast the spell? Is it determined by the spell, by the SLA being converted, or by the default rules for supernatural abilities? I am assuming it is based on the spell being cast, but the ability does not actually specify.
- What specifically does access mean when it comes to casting. Would the 'Cleric spell access' feature of Rainbow Servant allow any Cleric spell to be cast via pestilential touch? I'm assuming not, but mostly because that would be unbelievably broken. (At-will, potentially supernatural, spontaneous casting from the entire Cleric list...)
Even if virtually nothing else is viable, just pairing Mother Cyst with Nosomatic Chirurgeon is an incredible boost to versatility and potency for any halfling SLA user. (technically, thanks to chameleons and/or reincarnation, the dragonmark isn't actually limited to halflings but good luck getting that approved)Last edited by xyianth; 2015-10-26 at 09:55 PM.
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2015-10-26, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing Pestilential Touch -- Is This Legal?
This is not a safe assumption.
This is also not a safe assumption. "Spellcasting class" is not defined anywhere (to my knowledge), so there isn't a particularly strong basis for believing that Warlocks are excluded, especially since there are several references to them being spellcasters scattered around various books.
Per Rules Compendium p139, you must be able to cast any spell you know using a daily allotment of spell slots to be considered a spontaneous caster. Since you don't use spell slots, you don't qualify.Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
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2015-10-26, 11:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing Pestilential Touch -- Is This Legal?
No, but it is used constantly by people who recommend the class as a way for warlocks to meet arcane spellcasting requirements. Obviously, a strict RAW reading makes them neither arcane nor divine. Interestingly, Mother cyst also doesn't indicate whether the spells are arcane or divine. So even without the distinction, that trick still works.
Page 18 of Complete Arcane is fairly specific: "A warlock cannot qualify for prestige classes with spellcasting level requirements, as he never actually learns to cast spells." It isn't a direct statement of Warlocks are not a spellcasting class, but it is fairly close.
This one I had not seen, and I kind of figured something would come along and block it. Unfortunate, but not entirely unexpected, thanks for pointing it out. I think this rules out Sand Shaper's desert insight from working. Unseen Seer might still work if the spells associated with Mother Cyst constitute a list. It's definitely on shakier ground now without desert insight.
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2015-10-27, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing Pestilential Touch -- Is This Legal?
Well played.
Maiden of pain, from PGTF can transfer all them diseases and inflict spells via whip. maybe that is helpful.
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2015-10-27, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing Pestilential Touch -- Is This Legal?
There's no indication that the spells are either arcane or divine. And it is okay for them to be neither--that's how it is for Artificers. They are spells, but I don't see a good reason to believe they're arcane.
Other passages imply otherwise.
Originally Posted by CAr p4Originally Posted by DrU p17Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
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2015-10-27, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing Pestilential Touch -- Is This Legal?
The mind boggles at the notion that a class that 'never actually learns to cast spells' would count as a 'spellcasting class.' Then again it is WotC we are talking about so I really shouldn't be surprised anymore. Losing the adept casting isn't much of a loss, as I was really only using that to further qualify that you know the Mother Cyst spells thanks to the Spell Mastery reference. Knowing the spells was only important for Desert Insight and Unseen Seer portions. The Desert Insight trick has already been shown not to work. I suppose Unseen Seer should probably be ruled out now too.
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2015-10-27, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-10-27, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing Pestilential Touch -- Is This Legal?
I think it's less mind-boggling than your suggested alternative, giving them the full Warlock advancement even while using a prestige class to advance a different spellcasting class.
It's certainly not as much of a stretch as Soulknife being a psionic class (which, fun fact, it is).Last edited by Troacctid; 2015-10-27 at 01:51 AM.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2015-10-27, 02:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing Pestilential Touch -- Is This Legal?
Agree to disagree I suppose. I certainly admit that it is not intended to provide both benefits. None of the content in this thread is intended behavior. RAW, those two aspects are not mutually exclusive at all. And I think we might both agree that warlock being a spellcasting class is ambiguous at best. It is pretty clear that they gain the invocation advancement though.
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2015-10-27, 05:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing Pestilential Touch -- Is This Legal?
I'm not sure if this helps as it only applies to SLAs, but MM page 315:
"A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."
I think the rule of thumb here is warlocks have an arcane caster level, so they are considered arcane spellcasters.
Would Precocious Apprentice or Dragonsblood Pool fix this?Handbooks:
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2015-10-28, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing Pestilential Touch -- Is This Legal?
Sadly, pestilential touch is a Su ability, so I don't think this applies.
I suppose that is true, but I don't think it should be. Of course, what I think doesn't really matter in a RAW discussion. Do you, by any chance, have a citation that indicates this? I'm not disputing it, I'm just curious if this is one of those implied rules or not. This rule interpretation makes warlocks, dragonfire adepts, binders that bind the green lady, any dragonmarked character, and any class that grants an SLA an arcane spellcaster. I can sort of see the argument for warlocks and dragonfire adepts, even though I do not agree with it; but the others seem like a stretch.
Precocious Apprentice wouldn't apply. Regardless of whether warlocks are arcane spellcasters or not, they do not have the spellcasting ability at level 1. As a result, warlocks can't take the feat. Dragonsblood pool would grant you an arcane spell slot, and the mother cyst feat grants you a set of known spells. The only iffy thing is that you don't posses the spellcasting ability to make use of the slot. Your ability to cast spells is exclusively granted by pestilential touch, which does not use slots in any way.
You could combine the dragonsblood pool, mother cyst, and arcane preparation feat to gain a prepared arcane spell. You still couldn't cast the prepared spell as you lack the ability to do so. Thanks to interesting wording, the signature spell feat would apply and grant you the ability to cast from that slot spontaneously. You could therefore take the signature spell feat for one of your cyst spells to be counted as a spontaneous arcane caster. This could let you enter sand shaper and add the spells from desert insight to pestilential touch.
The primary downside to this is the dragonsblood pool lasts for 1 year. As soon as you lose it, you lose your slot and your standing as a spontaneous arcane caster. You might be able to prevent this by taking levels in a class that grants extra slots: nightmare spinner(need to get access to a fear and mind-affecting illusion spell somehow, possibly via runestaff), sovereign speaker(doesn't advance arcane casting), holt warden(meeting spellcasting requirements is rather difficult), and arachnomancer(race requirement is a problem) could be used if you can figure out how to enter them. You might be able to use the extra slot feat as well.
I'll mess around with the proposed build and see if I can incorporate a dragonsblood pool to re-enable sand shaper entry. Thanks for pointing this out.