New 5e Class: Sangromancer (Bloodlines under Construction!)

[Misty]

Like the idea!

[Korasyl]

Are you planning a mechanic to cap the number of high level spells the class can use in a day? All the PHB classes only gain a single 9th and 8th level spell per day and the variant spell point system in the DMG similarly restricts the number of 6th-9th level spell to 1 per day each. If I’m reading it right, a 20th level Sagromancer can spam 4, 9th level spells, even before creating more vitae with Dark Fueling. It might not be a good tactical choice to go nova of course, but it is something current classes can’t do with the same impunity.

Also, the Hit Point to vitae transfer ratio via Dark Fueling seems off to me. At the current cost, a 1st level spell costs 2 hit points, and a 1st level cure wounds spell heals 1d8+ casting stat (average 9.5 at max casting stat). So effectively you can trade 10 hit points for 5th level spell and regain most if not all of that damage from a 1st level healing spell. Action economy aside, it seems like too good of a trade without some kind of restriction.

I like the blood magic concept, but "casting from Hit points" is hard to balance :)

I see where you're coming from, friend, but take note:

Sangromancers do NOT have any healing spells. :P
At most, they have Status Removal Spells, but healing spells are a no-no for Sangromancers. They are meant for pure damage, with a slight amount of support. I do like your theories, though. ^^
As for the spell-casting abilities, I'm thinking of a certain ratio for the Vitae Points. Not 40 total, but i'm thinking of slight intervals of 2,2,4,4,6,6,8,8? Does this seem like a better rate of Vitae?

[Korasyl]

I feel like I'm getting the hang of this now. If anyone reading this has any thoughts on my spells (particularly the unusual ones like Blood Arrow and Curse of Binding), I'd be happy to hear them.

I'm liking these spells, dude! I'm adding a few extra's myself here in a second. Gotta fine tune them. :P

[JNAProductions]

But how would multiclassing into, say Cleric work?

[Flashy]

But how would multiclassing into, say Cleric work?

Or even having a Cleric in the same party. With Heal you can convert one character's 6th level slot into seven 5th level spells for another character. Pretty good deal.

[Korasyl]

Or even having a Cleric in the same party. With Heal you can convert one character's 6th level slot into seven 5th level spells for another character. Pretty good deal.

Well, damn. o - o I never thought about that. Only problem is, if you multi-class with any other class that has spells, your Vitae would not work. You'd have to use the legitimate spell slots provided by the Cleric Class.

Vitae only works for Sangromancer Spells. Which means, say you were a Level 10 Sangromancer, and a Level 10 Cleric. You may have a few spell slots that allow you to cast a healing spell on yourself, but once you run out of those spells, then Vitae is all you have left.

Plus, don't forget: When you multiclass, if you have more than three levels in any class outside of your starting class, your starting class becomes an Ex-Class. At least, that's how I always played. Don't know if that's still a legitimate thing. ^-^

EDIT: Now, having a healer in your party would be fantastic for a Sangromancer, but he can't just spend ALL of his healing spells on you. He does have to worry about himself, as well as other party members, if there are any. So, having a healer-class in your party or as a second class can be a small boost of power, but only just. ^^ Its a clever idea, though.

EDIT 2: Plus, remember to consider the fact that you are hurting yourself in the process. You don't keep the health you gained, if you turn it into Vitae. Plus, if you gain 8 Health, you can only get 4 Vitae Motes. You can only convert a max of 10 health every turn, anyway. ^^ Which is only 5 Vitae.

[Korasyl]

Also, I just added the 2^nd-Level spell Sangrotic Force.
Any comments? :D

[Ninja_Prawn]

Also, I just added the 2^nd-Level spell Sangrotic Force.
Any comments? :D

My thoughts:

a) "sangrotic" sounds ridiculous. That word should be banned.
b) the strike damage is okay, assuming you've got a decent weapon attack. I haven't really looked at the rest of the class - is it a competent weapon-user?
c) damage to weapons is not a core mechanic. Nothing else in the PHB does this. Also, why? It doesn't make sense.
d) the recoil damage option should also be cut. The spell isn't strong enough to warrant any extra cost.
e) why does the move effect have three different damage dice? That's crazy. It should be 1d10, save for half, regardless of who the target is.

[Korasyl]

My thoughts:

a) "sangrotic" sounds ridiculous. That word should be banned.
b) the strike damage is okay, assuming you've got a decent weapon attack. I haven't really looked at the rest of the class - is it a competent weapon-user?
c) damage to weapons is not a core mechanic. Nothing else in the PHB does this. Also, why? It doesn't make sense.
d) the recoil damage option should also be cut. The spell isn't strong enough to warrant any extra cost.
e) why does the move effect have three different damage dice? That's crazy. It should be 1d10, save for half, regardless of who the target is.

My responses:
a) Note taken. o -o It does sound very odd... How about "Deadly Force" instead? Unless you have a good name?
b) The Sangromancer is meant to be a battlecaster. They are proficient with all simple weapons, light crossbows, shortswords, and rapiers. ^^
c & d) Another note taken. o - o Though, my thought process was that if you're swinging something with tremendous force, there has to be SOME backlash, right? Its like throwing your fist at a brick wall at the speed of sound. That wall is gone.. But so is your hand. :P However, the recoil damage will be removed.
e) I have no idea, honestly. . - . I was kinda focused on another project while I was typing this. It shall be changed, lol

[Korasyl]

On a Second Note:

I'm going to start working on the Bloodlines.
Here are some basic themes for each:

Blood of the Hero:
Sangromancers with this Bloodline are known to be more giving than others, sacrificing themselves to save others.

Main Ability: When a Sangromancer with the Hero Bloodline is struck, they have the ability to remove up to 20 damage from the attack, and gain Vitae Motes equal to half the amount of damage reduced. This ability can only be used 1/Long Rest.
I.E:
If you are struck for 30 damage, then you may use this ability to take only 10 damage, and gain 10 Vitae Motes.



Blood of the Wise:
Sangromancers with this Bloodline are known to have a better understanding of their power, able to harness it to the fullest.

Main Ability: Your Dark Fueling is augmented, allowing for Equivalent Exchange of HP to Vitae Motes.
I.E:
If you harm yourself for 5 damage, you gain 5 Vitae Motes.
(This in no way allows for Health/Vitae Spam. The numbers are now equal, so when you trade off HP for Vitae, you can undo it.
Check this JUST IN CASE.)



Blood of the Tyrant:
Sangromancers with this Bloodline are known for their ruthless behavior, always taking what they want with ease.

Main Ability: When a Sangromancer with the Tyrant Bloodline strikes a creature, they have the ability to gain Vitae Motes equal to half the amount of damage dealt, up to a max of 10. This ability can only be used 1/Long Rest.
I.E:
If you strike a creature for 20 damage, then you may use this ability to gain 10 Vitae Motes.


What do you guys think?

[Cassious]

I see where you're coming from, friend, but take note:

Sangromancers do NOT have any healing spells. :P
At most, they have Status Removal Spells, but healing spells are a no-no for Sangromancers. They are meant for pure damage, with a slight amount of support. I do like your theories, though. ^^
As for the spell-casting abilities, I'm thinking of a certain ratio for the Vitae Points. Not 40 total, but i'm thinking of slight intervals of 2,2,4,4,6,6,8,8? Does this seem like a better rate of Vitae?

Sorry, I’m not following what you mean by Vitae ratio here, or the numbers you quote, I’m guessing an altered vitae cost per spell level? I’m probably being dense but I just can’t get my head around this one, It looks important though.

Well, damn. o - o I never thought about that. Only problem is, if you multi-class with any other class that has spells, your Vitae would not work. You'd have to use the legitimate spell slots provided by the Cleric Class.

Vitae only works for Sangromancer Spells. Which means, say you were a Level 10 Sangromancer, and a Level 10 Cleric. You may have a few spell slots that allow you to cast a healing spell on yourself, but once you run out of those spells, then Vitae is all you have left.

Plus, don't forget: When you multiclass, if you have more than three levels in any class outside of your starting class, your starting class becomes an Ex-Class. At least, that's how I always played. Don't know if that's still a legitimate thing. ^-^

EDIT: Now, having a healer in your party would be fantastic for a Sangromancer, but he can't just spend ALL of his healing spells on you. He does have to worry about himself, as well as other party members, if there are any. So, having a healer-class in your party or as a second class can be a small boost of power, but only just. ^^ Its a clever idea, though.

EDIT 2: Plus, remember to consider the fact that you are hurting yourself in the process. You don't keep the health you gained, if you turn it into Vitae. Plus, if you gain 8 Health, you can only get 4 Vitae Motes. You can only convert a max of 10 health every turn, anyway. ^^ Which is only 5 Vitae.

Having thought more about the hit point to vitae issue I think the problem with it (ratio of hit point to vitae aside) is that hit points are a renewable resource as long as you can find a source of healing (whatever that is), and that breaks the limits that other classes have on their spell casting in the form of a fixed number of spell slots. It comes with a cost (potential death) but that cost can be mitigated depending on how much resource you are willing to put into it. Basically it makes assessing balance hard since the baseline spell casting is variable.

What I would do, to completely remove the whole issues is make damage taken by dark fuelling reduce the characters hit point maximum till they take a long rest. Damage Taken from dark fuelling would be effectively un-healable for the day, making it an appropriately high cost for extra spells and negate the ‘pocket cleric battery’ effect. Its a pretty harsh solution, but that makes the choice to use dark fuelling appropriately tense, just how I imagine blood magic.

[Flashy]

What I would do, to completely remove the whole issues is make damage taken by dark fuelling reduce the characters hit point maximum till they take a long rest. Damage Taken from dark fuelling would be effectively un-healable for the day, making it an appropriately high cost for extra spells and negate the ‘pocket cleric battery’ effect. Its a pretty harsh solution, but that makes the choice to use dark fuelling appropriately tense, just how I imagine blood magic.

I really support this design choice. Healing is really easy to come by in 5e to the point that most parties don't need to run a healer at all. A Cleric doesn't need to be devoting their spell slots to healing the rest of the party, so the Sangromancer becomes an engine for turning spell slots into way more spell slots.

[Korasyl]

I really support this design choice. Healing is really easy to come by in 5e to the point that most parties don't need to run a healer at all. A Cleric doesn't need to be devoting their spell slots to healing the rest of the party, so the Sangromancer becomes an engine for turning spell slots into way more spell slots.

Alright, I see where you are both coming from. ^-^ I will make the corresponding changes.

It's always good to have the opinions and ideas of others. Thank you guys, for the help with balancing.

I actually did do a test run of this Class at Level 5 against two other Level 5s:
A Wizard, and a Monk.

I defeated the Wizard pretty easily, but I almost lost to the Monk. I survived by 2 HP.
All in all, I think this class is getting closer to becoming balanced overall. ^-^

Any other comments, and/or ideas? :D


EDIT: I made the change to Dark Fueling. Did I word it properly?

[Korasyl]

I have also added a new spell:

Nosferatu's Tidal Wave

What do you guys think?

[Ninja_Prawn]

I have also added a new spell:

Nosferatu's Tidal Wave

What do you guys think?

I like it. I'm AFB (my books are literally 3,800 miles away right now) so I can't check the damage, but it looks alright.

And thanks for the credit! For the record, my signature colour on these fora is Magenta (FF00FF), and my preferred pronoun is them/they/their. But you know, whatever.

[Korasyl]

I like it. I'm AFB (my books are literally 3,800 miles away right now) so I can't check the damage, but it looks alright.

And thanks for the credit! For the record, my signature colour on these fora is Magenta (FF00FF), and my preferred pronoun is them/they/their. But you know, whatever.

Thanks! ^-^
And apologies. cx I'll fix that right up.

EDIT: As well, I'm gonna start on the Sanguine Powers, and Bloodlines. ^^ Sanguine Powers are pretty much just Metamagic Feats that require Vitae, but I wanna see if can make some original ones. I already have one called Mirv Spell.

[Korasyl]

A new addition has been added:

Sanguine Amplifiers

Tell me what you guys think! :D

[Korasyl]

Hey, everyone! It's me again, here with another update!

The Bloodline's for this class has been added, though the Bloodline Traits have yet to be established.

The Bloodline feats only go up to Level 6 at the moment, but I want all of your opinions on what is there.

^^ DANKE~

EDIT: The Traits have been removed, as to simplify the class. Now only Bloodline bonuses and abilities are available. :P

[AvatarVecna]

I can't honestly say I'd ever play this, or allow a player to play it in one of my games. The spellcasting mechanic is very different from how it generally works in 5e, and not having to learn new sub-systems every step of the way is one of the benefits of playing 5e, especially when it's hard to really break magic the way it's presented in Core, and how relatively easily this can break the spellcasting progression.

Not a fan, I guess is my point.

[Korasyl]

I can't honestly say I'd ever play this, or allow a player to play it in one of my games. The spellcasting mechanic is very different from how it generally works in 5e, and not having to learn new sub-systems every step of the way is one of the benefits of playing 5e, especially when it's hard to really break magic the way it's presented in Core, and how relatively easily this can break the spellcasting progression.

Not a fan, I guess is my point.

Understood. ^-^ Granted, the whole premise of this class was to implement something entirely new to the game of D&D, for original purposes, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Some people just won't like this.

Thanks for the review, Vecna. ^^ It will definitely give me some insight on to how I will brew other things. :3

[Ninja_Prawn]

Just had a look at the bloodlines stuff. My impression is that it's kind of bland and uninspiring, apart from Once More and Crimson Helper, which look way overpowered.

And I do intend to finish off the spells. I've just been kinda busy this week.

[Flashy]

My impression is that it's kind of bland and uninspiring, apart from Once More and Crimson Helper, which look way overpowered.

The +1 ability with new max at 22 feature and advantage on literally d20 linked to that ability feature are also both crazy overpowered. The advantage more than the ability cap increase (though the ability cap increase does come way too early in the class progression).

[Cassious]

The +1 ability with new max at 22 feature and advantage on literally d20 linked to that ability feature are also both crazy overpowered. The advantage more than the ability cap increase (though the ability cap increase does come way too early in the class progression).

On the archetype front the ability score boosting chain of features should probably be just one archetype where you chose any one ability score rather than having three archetypes that replicate the same benefits just applied to different stats. As is, each archetype has only 2 unique features, which makes it hard in my mind to justify a whole archetype.

That said; I’m not keen on the implementation of the 6th, 12th and 18th level features as you basically become God of one stat.

• Blanket advantage on almost everything for one stat is crazy strong particularly on saves, but much less fun then convincing your GM to give you advantage on a skill check for clever playing.
• Blanket double proficiency for one stat is ether fairly bland or “I have more expertise then the party rogue” depending on if you have proficiency in skills with that stat and can get silly good combined with the above mentioned auto-advantage.
• Unlimited auto-win on one save is quite strong, and also kills a lot of tension when you can ignore 1/6th or more of adverse conditions.

Also some ability scores are better choices then others with this feature depending on associated skills and how commonly that save type comes up.

None of these abilities feel like they are playing to the classes’ party roll as a damage caster or interact with the classes’ main mechanics in an interesting way and end up feeling static rather than dynamic. More abilities like Dark Protector and Crimson Helper are the way to go in my opinion, both flavorful and dynamic in a way that alters how the class plays.

If you are set on the ability score approach though, I would give the 6th 12th and 18th level abilities a limited daily use based on short or long rest to balance them out. 1 auto-save per day is still a decent ability.

This criticism probably looks kind of harsh but I assure you, it’s meant in the best possible way, I think the core of the class is defiantly coming along so keep up the good work mate.

[muhitsmrana99]

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[Korasyl]

The +1 ability with new max at 22 feature and advantage on literally d20 linked to that ability feature are also both crazy overpowered. The advantage more than the ability cap increase (though the ability cap increase does come way too early in the class progression).

Just had a look at the bloodlines stuff. My impression is that it's kind of bland and uninspiring, apart from Once More and Crimson Helper, which look way overpowered.

And I do intend to finish off the spells. I've just been kinda busy this week.

On the archetype front the ability score boosting chain of features should probably be just one archetype where you chose any one ability score rather than having three archetypes that replicate the same benefits just applied to different stats. As is, each archetype has only 2 unique features, which makes it hard in my mind to justify a whole archetype.

That said; I’m not keen on the implementation of the 6th, 12th and 18th level features as you basically become God of one stat.

• Blanket advantage on almost everything for one stat is crazy strong particularly on saves, but much less fun then convincing your GM to give you advantage on a skill check for clever playing.
• Blanket double proficiency for one stat is ether fairly bland or “I have more expertise then the party rogue” depending on if you have proficiency in skills with that stat and can get silly good combined with the above mentioned auto-advantage.
• Unlimited auto-win on one save is quite strong, and also kills a lot of tension when you can ignore 1/6th or more of adverse conditions.

Also some ability scores are better choices then others with this feature depending on associated skills and how commonly that save type comes up.

None of these abilities feel like they are playing to the classes’ party roll as a damage caster or interact with the classes’ main mechanics in an interesting way and end up feeling static rather than dynamic. More abilities like Dark Protector and Crimson Helper are the way to go in my opinion, both flavorful and dynamic in a way that alters how the class plays.

If you are set on the ability score approach though, I would give the 6th 12th and 18th level abilities a limited daily use based on short or long rest to balance them out. 1 auto-save per day is still a decent ability.

This criticism probably looks kind of harsh but I assure you, it’s meant in the best possible way, I think the core of the class is defiantly coming along so keep up the good work mate.

Alright, I can see where you three are coming from. ^^ To be quite honest, the whole ability-score Jargin came from a friend of mine, who thought it might have been rather useful. However, upon reading each of these, it is pretty obvious that it's way too over-powered.

I do want to keep the special abilities that I had added. (Crimson Helper, Dark Protector, etc..) But I will be definitely removing the Max Cap increase. The earliest Stat Max Increase is past Level 10, that I could find.

Basically, I'm wanting to go into the lines of having three different types of Sangromancers:
Although they are all meant to be damage dealers, there are many players who LOVE to beat the ever-loving hell out of enemies with brute force.
Others prefer to snipe away with spells, never getting touched as they laugh from a distance.
Yet others.. (Like myself, sometimes) prefer to take out enemies up-close and hidden, where I can make a quick, safe getaway.


To be honest, instead of these attribute traits, I was thinking of implementing the Spell Modifiers that Warlocks get. (Like Agonizing Blast, Eldritch Spear, Etc..) but I basically had a Brewer's Block when I thought about it.

What do you guys think?

EDIT: I really appreciate the critique and help you guys are giving me. ^^ I REALLY want this to be a legible class~
Thank you guys. ^-^

[Cassious]

Basically, I'm wanting to go into the lines of having three different types of Sangromancers:
Although they are all meant to be damage dealers, there are many players who LOVE to beat the ever-loving hell out of enemies with brute force.
Others prefer to snipe away with spells, never getting touched as they laugh from a distance.
Yet others.. (Like myself, sometimes) prefer to take out enemies up-close and hidden, where I can make a quick, safe getaway.


To be honest, instead of these attribute traits, I was thinking of implementing the Spell Modifiers that Warlocks get. (Like Agonizing Blast, Eldritch Spear, Etc..) but I basically had a Brewer's Block when I thought about it.

What do you guys think?

EDIT: I really appreciate the critique and help you guys are giving me. ^^ I REALLY want this to be a legible class~
Thank you guys. ^-^

I think Spell modifiers are a better direction to go in but don’t feel each archetype has to be built the same way. As long as power level is equivalent they can have quite different befits, a good example is the bard colleges.

From my perspective a good Archetype should do two things:

1. fill a conceptual niche
2. give mechanical benefits that alters how the class plays

In your last post you give a couple of different play styles of how you see people playing the class. I would suggest mapping each particular play style to an archetype, and work on features that rewards/ facilitates that play style.

For example make one Archetype reward being a ranged blaster with damage buff to ranged powers and another Archetype could helps the class perform at melee range with mobility or added toughness. Peg out your concepts then builds your features around that.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Okay, I've added two more spells (Puppet and Mass Puppet). They're based on the Dominate X spells, but a bit more limited (hence the lower spell level and possibility of a 'Mass' version). I've also cleaned up some of Kora's new spells. I'd like to do another couple of spells before I call it a day, especially at 7^th and 8^th level. I'll have to see what else I can think of.

[Korasyl]

Okay, I've added two more spells (Puppet and Mass Puppet). They're based on the Dominate X spells, but a bit more limited (hence the lower spell level and possibility of a 'Mass' version). I've also cleaned up some of Kora's new spells. I'd like to do another couple of spells before I call it a day, especially at 7^th and 8^th level. I'll have to see what else I can think of.

I like the idea for the Puppet and Mass Puppet. ^-^ It could seriously grant a Sangromancer an advantage, provided the target fails its saving throw.

Spoiler: Mass Puppet Concerns/Confusions

Show

However, for the Mass Puppet: (And correct me if I'm wrong.)

1) From what I read, you can only control a creature on your turn, correct?

2) Typically, a turn lasts for 6 seconds.. And after everyone goes, the round is over, right?

3) If that's the case, and only 1 creature puppetized can make an action on your turn... Since their under your control, wouldn't a single creature making an action count the end of your turn? And if that's the case, then the round is over, since the only viable turn is YOURS..

4) What I'm saying is, i think the duration for Mass Puppet should be increased. For reasons, the way I'm reading it says that though you control multiple creatures, only 1 creature can be used before the spell ends. ^-^" At least, that's how I'm reading it. I might be reading it wrong, or I'm just dense, lol.

Also, I'm working on a new idea for each Bloodline. ^^ Ill be putting up examples in a bit.

ALSO!

For Spell Ideas...

How about spells that tie into the Mass Damage Category?
For instance, I have a small description for two spells:

Spoiler: Maelstrom of Blades?

Show

The Sangromancer spins his arms in a whirlwind motion, just as slivers of crimson begin to swirl about him in a maelstrom of red flashes. The main Guard snickered at the trick, his face smirking in a coy grin...

And that same grin remained on his face as his head was severed from his body, while his body was slashed to bits by the whirling tornado of crimson blades that sliced up the air as they spun.

Smiling evilly, the Sangromancer slowly advanced, the horrid storm of blood following him as he stalked towards the rest of the guards.

Or maybe:

Spoiler: Sanctimony of Anguish?

Show

The Sangromancer raised his palm towards the warrior, just as the blood from the bodies of his fallen comrades shot from each corpse, desiccating the bodies as it rose into the air above the Sangromancer. As the ribbons of crimson swirled about, a dense, tiny ball began to form at the center of the swirling mass. Once all of the blood was transferred to the diminutive sphere, the Sangromancer pointed it at the warrior, who had barely any time to react before the massively dense, tiny ball slammed into him, crushing his body with 12 Tons of weight.

Maybe this gives you a few ideas?

[Ninja_Prawn]

However, for the Mass Puppet: (And correct me if I'm wrong.)

1) From what I read, you can only control a creature on your turn, correct?

2) Typically, a turn lasts for 6 seconds.. And after everyone goes, the round is over, right?

3) If that's the case, and only 1 creature puppetized can make an action on your turn... Since their under your control, wouldn't a single creature making an action count the end of your turn? And if that's the case, then the round is over, since the only viable turn is YOURS..

4) What I'm saying is, i think the duration for Mass Puppet should be increased. For reasons, the way I'm reading it says that though you control multiple creatures, only 1 creature can be used before the spell ends. ^-^" At least, that's how I'm reading it. I might be reading it wrong, or I'm just dense, lol.

Some clarifications:

1. You control the targets for the duration. They act on your turn, but can take a reaction on other turns (1 reaction per round between you and your puppets).

2. Yes.

3. You seem to be assuming that there are no other party members or non-puppetised enemies. If that were the case, yes the combat is effectively over - which I feel is appropriate for a 9th-level spell. But that's not likely to happen in serious combats.

Also note that you could share your action, movement, bonus action and object interaction between four different puppets on the same turn. There's nothing to say you have to stick to the same 4 next turn.

4. The duration is 1 minute. That's 10 rounds - longer than most combats. The aim of the spell is to be a short-term domination effect to turn specific combats, so 1 minute with concentration is the obvious choice.

[Korasyl]

4. The duration is 1 minute. That's 10 rounds - longer than most combats.

That being said, what if there is more than 10 people within an encounter? If each turn lasts roughly 6 seconds, and lets say there are 3 party members and 9 enemies free of the puppetting...?

But other than that, it's clearer to me. ^^ Thank you.