Jessica Jones (Netflix Nov. 20)

[Dragonus45]

Spoiler: end of season 1

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they didn't kill killgrave... they set up the perfect 'we need him alive to prove this' then just killed him off... He was perfect to be a reason to have to build a new supermax prison...

Spoiler: officer simpson

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I hope we get to see more nuke...

Spoiler: End of Season

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Yea, they really did not use kilgrave to the best, its one of the reasons I think Daredevil was a bit better of a series. That said the cocktail of super drugs he was taking could always lead to later shenanigans.

Spoiler: Officer Simpson

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As for Nuke, they have said that Born Again is going to be the next portion of comics they adapt... I really hope we get to see Cap in it.

[Lizard Lord]

Spoiler: Jerry

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I think its just a gender swapped version of the character, I imagine her plot line here is going to be the setup for her winding up the lawyer to the Heroes for Hire, because they are the only ones that will take her, like in the comics. Or I'm just being hopeful.

Funny you mention that, since I kind of got the impression that Jerry Jeri was designed to be male but the casting director liked Carrie-Anne Moss more that any male actor that auditioned for the same role and decided that Jerry Jeri Hogarth's gender didn't really matter that much.


Edit: When I looked up the actress's name on IMDB, I learned that Jeri's name is spelled with an i.

[Dragonus45]

Funny you mention that, since I kind of got the impression that Jerry Jeri was designed to be male but the casting director liked Carrie-Anne Moss more that any male actor that auditioned for the same role and decided that Jerry Jeri Hogarth's gender didn't really matter that much.


Edit: When I looked up the actress's name on IMDB, I learned that Jeri's name is spelled with an i.

That might be it, I kind of like the casting as a woman though. It was an interesting take on the high power exec sleeping with his her blonde secretary.

[BRC]

Okay, I finished the show last night.

Some random thoughts

Spoiler: Pam and Jeri

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At one point Jeri mentions that Pam is being charged with murder.

Why? They have a wounded Jeri, Whatshername's fingerprints on the knife, all the evidence consistent with Jeri being attacked with a knife, Pam coming in, hitting whatshername, who then hits her head on the table and dies.

You know, the things that physically happened. It seems a pretty clear-cut case of, if not self-defense, trying to defend somebody else. There are even witnesses (Jessica) and Motive (Messy Breakup) to back it up.

Like, I could see Pam not wanting anything to do with Jeri ever again, but I have trouble buying the Police expecting to get a Murder conviction.

Also

Spoiler: Discount Captain America

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What is his deal?


Like, I get the whole "Crazy Combat Drugs" thing, but his behavior seems less "Hyper-Focused For Battle" and more "Totally Irrational".

He had all the information he needed from Detective Clemont, who was not intending to stop him, so why did he kill him? He clearly was not operating in berserker mode, because he had enough presence of mind to then dispose of the bodies.


Also, if Kilgrave's powers shut off (Including any ongoing commands) once he gets tranquilized, why did the old lady from next door still blow up Simpson and his friends?

[Giggling Ghast]

I quite liked the series. I will say that the fight scenes in Daredevil were quite a bit better; it's good Jessica has super-strength, because she can't fight worth a damn. But still, great story, well-acted, well-written, etc.

Spoiler: Discount Captain America

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Also, if Kilgrave's powers shut off (Including any ongoing commands) once he gets tranquilized, why did the old lady from next door still blow up Simpson and his friends?

His ongoing commands DO NOT shut off upon unconsciousness or death. Time is ultimately the determination of how long the effect will last. That's how he can threaten Jessica with the suicidal deaths of her neighbours if he turns up dead.

Spoiler

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He was not commanding anyone to do anything at the moment when he died. He had told everyone simply to "STOP."

[Kid Jake]

Spoiler: Weakness

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The Tranq was pretty much pointless since it apparently...stopped him from giving new orders while unconscious? Duct tape or a broken jaw would have done just as much to inhibit his abilities.

[Anyr]

His ongoing commands DO NOT shut off upon unconsciousness or death. Time is ultimately the determination of how long the effect will last. That's how he can threaten Jessica with the suicidal deaths of her neighbours if he turns up dead.

Spoiler

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If that's true, then why did he insist on staying conscious during the kidney surgery? Jessica and the surgeon both make sure to emphasise that point. It's specifically stated that anaesthesia will disrupt his powers in a way that normal sleep doesn't. What form could that disruption take, except the suspension of ongoing commands?

[BWR]

OK so a good show but it ended up losing some of the tension and punch the first few episodes had. Kilgrave was much less scary when he actually showed up onscreen than his actions and Jessica's reactions to the idea of him being alive beforehand. He came off as a petulant, spoiled brat with some scary powers and that lessened his impact. It made me want to smack him like a dangerous bug rather than kill him for being a scary monster. The show started dragging a bit towards the end, like it was meant to be a few episodes shorter but they had to fill a few extra hours so they packed in some filler. They did it rather well, all told, but I still think it would have worked better as a shorter series.

[Geddoe]

OK so a good show but it ended up losing some of the tension and punch the first few episodes had. Kilgrave was much less scary when he actually showed up onscreen than his actions and Jessica's reactions to the idea of him being alive beforehand. He came off as a petulant, spoiled brat with some scary powers and that lessened his impact. It made me want to smack him like a dangerous bug rather than kill him for being a scary monster. The show started dragging a bit towards the end, like it was meant to be a few episodes shorter but they had to fill a few extra hours so they packed in some filler. They did it rather well, all told, but I still think it would have worked better as a shorter series.

Spoiler

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Well Jessica didn't know that she was now immune, but he does. She was scared because if she entered a room with him in it without expecting it, she thought she would end up a smiling sex slave until he grew bored of her and told her to put a bullet in her head. In a physical confrontation he was never going to be a threat, but what he can make others do puts them at risk.

[GloatingSwine]

Okay, I finished the show last night.

Spoiler: Discount Captain America

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What is his deal?


Like, I get the whole "Crazy Combat Drugs" thing, but his behavior seems less "Hyper-Focused For Battle" and more "Totally Irrational".

He had all the information he needed from Detective Clemont, who was not intending to stop him, so why did he kill him? He clearly was not operating in berserker mode, because he had enough presence of mind to then dispose of the bodies.


Also, if Kilgrave's powers shut off (Including any ongoing commands) once he gets tranquilized, why did the old lady from next door still blow up Simpson and his friends?

Spoiler

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He's the weak link in a show where otherwise everyone has really clear character based motivations for the things they do. Even when the things they do are self destructive and stupid.

It's a clear case of "setting things up for another show later" to the detriment of this one

[Giggling Ghast]

Spoiler

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If that's true, then why did he insist on staying conscious during the kidney surgery? Jessica and the surgeon both make sure to emphasise that point. It's specifically stated that anaesthesia will disrupt his powers in a way that normal sleep doesn't. What form could that disruption take, except the suspension of ongoing commands?

I have no idea how long surgery like that would take - in the show, it's stated that it lasted 10 hours - but I imagine he couldn't risk being under so long that his powers wore off.

Given that his powers are virus-based, why would he need to be conscious for them to work?

Admittedly, the show's a bit indecisive on this point.

[Blackdrop]

...Given that his powers are virus-based...

Spoiler: Powers

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I wonder if his powers are virus-based. It strikes me as being damn convenient that Jessica became immune to the virus right after she killed Reva and it makes me wonder if instead of the virus being the cause of Kilgraves power, it's more that his power causes the virus.

[thorgrim29]

I have no idea how long surgery like that would take - in the show, it's stated that it lasted 10 hours - but I imagine he couldn't risk being under so long that his powers wore off.

Given that his powers are virus-based, why would he need to be conscious for them to work?

Admittedly, the show's a bit indecisive on this point.

I think it's more that when you're asleep you can wake up and Kilgrave probably isn't a very deep sleeper, paranoid schemer that he is. When you're under anesthesia you're out whatever happens until it wears off.

[Giggling Ghast]

I wonder if his powers work on two levels: subconscious and verbal. Verbal commands cannot be disobeyed until the time limit runs out, but he subconsciously influences people to want to obey and follow him.

[Clertar]

Spoiler: Powers

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I wonder if his powers are virus-based. It strikes me as being damn convenient that Jessica became immune to the virus right after she killed Reva and it makes me wonder if instead of the virus being the cause of Kilgraves power, it's more that his power causes the virus.

Kilgrave's powers

Spoiler

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are indeed virus-based, since that was the strategy his mind-controlled dad used to make them stronger. Otherwise, there's no explanation to the boosts he gets.
On the other hand, there's clearly a mental component to it, with Jessica breaking through his powers, or Luke resisting them long enough to be shot in the jaw.

[Dienekes]

Kilgrave's powers

Spoiler

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are indeed virus-based, since that was the strategy his mind-controlled dad used to make them stronger. Otherwise, there's no explanation to the boosts he gets.
On the other hand, there's clearly a mental component to it, with Jessica breaking through his powers, or Luke resisting them long enough to be shot in the jaw.

Spoiler

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The other possible answer is that, since it's a virus and the show is going on comicbook science, your body eventually becomes immune. Jessica lived with the virus long enough that she did develop immunity, and Luke's powers are very defensive so maybe they effect his immune system as well. Who knows?

Anyway about the show

Spoiler

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I binged it, and gotta say it was pretty good. Not as good as Daredevil, but still good. The fightscene choreography was definitely lacking, but the focus was more on Jessica's mentality and figuring out how to beat the big bad.

Really the powerhouse actor of the bunch, I thought, was Tennant. Who was at least interesting to watch, despite the fact his character came off more as a petulant child and stalker than a serious threat like Kingpin did. Ritter was good, but I thought she struggled on some of the more emotional parts. Overall though, if they continue with the show, and I hope they do because I enjoyed it, I'm glad that they killed off Killgrave. He served his purpose, his arc with Jessica concluded and since the show was so focused on their relationship in the first one, and they looked at that relationship through so many angles in their one season, I don't think I can think of anywhere else for their relationship to go. There's not tension like there is with, say, the Thor/Loki relationship where there's the hope for Loki's redemption in Thor, and the brotherly connection. In this, Purple Man was Jessica's tormentor, that was it. She wanted him dead, and there was never any real variation on that. The only reason she didn't want to kill him originally was to save a girl's life, but after that didn't happen (in one of the best bits of the show, in my opinion), there was never a reason to not kill Killgrave on sight. Jessica is set up as not a person afraid to kill, and I'm glad they didn't try and make a contrived scenario for him to survive.

I liked the addition of Nuke. I consider myself knowledgeable of these comicbook characters and I did not put together who Simpson was until after the transformation. It was well done, though they could have gone to greater lengths to explain why he went nuts. A couple sentences of how the drug was making him increasingly erratic which is why he originally quit the program would have helped. Maybe they said that and I missed it. I could tell he was abusing the drugs because we see him take 2 red pills at one point, but that was after he randomly killed Lester Freamon the detective guy.

That's it really. Solid show, would continue to watch, but hardly perfect and has some definite room to improve.

[Hytheter]

Spoiler

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A couple sentences of how the drug was making him increasingly erratic which is why he originally quit the program would have helped. Maybe they said that and I missed it. I could tell he was abusing the drugs because we see him take 2 red pills at one point, but that was after he randomly killed Lester Freamon the detective guy.

Spoiler

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I could be misremembering, but I recall him taking a few red pills almost immediately after being told not to do that by the doctor guy. I think the drugs making him crazy was implied when the doctor said they were doing it differently now.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

Spoiler: simpson

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yea when he was in the hospital he was told not to take more red pills, that they drive him into hyperdrive, blue are to come down, and white to maintain... so most of the time he should be on white...

Spoiler: blue pills

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I don't understand why when hellcat needed them they didn't look for them outside the window...

[Clertar]

Spoiler: blue pills

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I don't understand why when hellcat needed them they didn't look for them outside the window...

Spoiler

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Are you serious? Jessica lives a few floors up on her building (the elevator ride of Hope and her parents while Jessica was running down the stairs), it's a little bottle thrown into a street of Manhattan.

[Sholos]

All this referring to characters by their comics names (Hellcat and Nuke) is very confusing.

Anyway, I am really appreciating several things about this series so far. Two big things are the way the struggle between Kilgrave and Jessica is framed and also the fact that they didn't feel the need for gratuitous shots of her trauma. Also:

Spoiler

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I love that she explicitly calls Kilgrave out about the rape. And doesn't let him weasel out. That was just a great moment for me.

[Pex]

Only saw the first episode so far.

PG rating this is not. Not for the kiddies this show. I was not enamored. I'm not yet willing to just forget about this show, but I find myself less than enthused about wanting to see the next episode. I know nothing of the Jessica Jones comic or how accurate this show's portrayal of it is. This style is not my style. It's no different than various dramas on other channels these days, and I don't watch them because they're not my style. We'll see whether I stop watching altogether, watch it just to get it over with as part of the MCU, or become interested and want to know what happens.

Only because I bring it up in other threads, I appreciate the equivalencies of various states of undress among the genders instead of only the males in other shows.

[Giggling Ghast]

Re: Jessica's immunity:

Spoiler

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My theory is that it's tied to her healing factor. Being under Kilgrave's control had been slowly killing her for a long time, but it was within the boundaries of her tolerance. Murdering Luke's wife, something that was completely against her character, so damaged her mentally that her healing factor finally kicked into overdrive and created an immunity to his powers.

[McStabbington]

Spoiler

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I binged it, and gotta say it was pretty good. Not as good as Daredevil, but still good. The fightscene choreography was definitely lacking, but the focus was more on Jessica's mentality and figuring out how to beat the big bad.

Really the powerhouse actor of the bunch, I thought, was Tennant. Who was at least interesting to watch, despite the fact his character came off more as a petulant child and stalker than a serious threat like Kingpin did. Ritter was good, but I thought she struggled on some of the more emotional parts. Overall though, if they continue with the show, and I hope they do because I enjoyed it, I'm glad that they killed off Killgrave. He served his purpose, his arc with Jessica concluded and since the show was so focused on their relationship in the first one, and they looked at that relationship through so many angles in their one season, I don't think I can think of anywhere else for their relationship to go. There's not tension like there is with, say, the Thor/Loki relationship where there's the hope for Loki's redemption in Thor, and the brotherly connection. In this, Purple Man was Jessica's tormentor, that was it. She wanted him dead, and there was never any real variation on that. The only reason she didn't want to kill him originally was to save a girl's life, but after that didn't happen (in one of the best bits of the show, in my opinion), there was never a reason to not kill Killgrave on sight. Jessica is set up as not a person afraid to kill, and I'm glad they didn't try and make a contrived scenario for him to survive.

Spoiler

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The choreography was perfect given that most of the supers in the show who do any fighting don't have any formal training. You can instantly see tell visually that Luke and Jessica are primarily reliant on being 10x as strong as their opponents to win fights, and that Luke typically goes at about 1/4 strength, while Jessica goes 1/2 strength because she's more damaged and less invested in saving lives. Meanwhile, Red Pill-Trish and Nuke are using actual training and focus on crippling their opponents fast and efficiently. It's all conveyed visually without a word of dialogue, which is exactly what the choreography was supposed to do. Compared with most fight choreography, which is all about showing visual flare and verve regardless of its purpose in the story, it was actually really refreshing in its realism.

If you're looking for wirework and flashy attacks, maybe you should be watching a different show about different heroes. Watching poor brawlers in Hell's Kitchen and expecting wuxia is kind of a problem with your expectations rather than the show.

Spoiler

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As for Tenant, I would say both the writing and the performance was brilliant. As someone who has been in an abusive relationship, I would say if you don't know what that is like, watching this show will show you exactly, exactly what it is like, right down to the way they manipulate outsiders to isolate their victims. Abusers aren't evil and vile because they want to control the world. They are evil and vile because they want to control you, and it is precisely that banality, or if you prefer intimacy, that makes them so damaging.

If you prefer Palpatine-style villains, I'll admit that wasn't what the show was going for. But don't knock the show just because you wanted Palpatine and instead got a pitch-perfect Joruus C'Boath.

[Dienekes]

Spoiler

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The choreography was perfect given that most of the supers in the show who do any fighting don't have any formal training. You can instantly see tell visually that Luke and Jessica are primarily reliant on being 10x as strong as their opponents to win fights, and that Luke typically goes at about 1/4 strength, while Jessica goes 1/2 strength because she's more damaged and less invested in saving lives. Meanwhile, Red Pill-Trish and Nuke are using actual training and focus on crippling their opponents fast and efficiently. It's all conveyed visually without a word of dialogue, which is exactly what the choreography was supposed to do. Compared with most fight choreography, which is all about showing visual flare and verve regardless of its purpose in the story, it was actually really refreshing in its realism.

If you're looking for wirework and flashy attacks, maybe you should be watching a different show about different heroes. Watching poor brawlers in Hell's Kitchen and expecting wuxia is kind of a problem with your expectations rather than the show.

Spoiler

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Eh it's not the lack of wire work. In general I dislike it though some movies do it ok. But compare any of the fights with say Daredevil or some of the other great cinematic fight scenes like, Old Boy, Rob Roy, the Duellists, and so on and the problem isn't that the fighting isn't realistic it's that a fight should tell a story in an interesting way. The choreography was boring. Really, really boring. There is little to no tension, ever in their fight sequences even when Jess is being shot at by a bunch of cops.

Spoiler

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As for Tenant, I would say both the writing and the performance was brilliant. As someone who has been in an abusive relationship, I would say if you don't know what that is like, watching this show will show you exactly, exactly what it is like, right down to the way they manipulate outsiders to isolate their victims. Abusers aren't evil and vile because they want to control the world. They are evil and vile because they want to control you, and it is precisely that banality, or if you prefer intimacy, that makes them so damaging.

If you prefer Palpatine-style villains, I'll admit that wasn't what the show was going for. But don't knock the show just because you wanted Palpatine and instead got a pitch-perfect Joruus C'Boath.

Spoiler

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I would have liked Thrawn. C'Boath was the weakest character of the Thrawn Saga. A petulant child that never came across as a serious threat to the heroes or Thrawn. Just a tool to be used by the more interesting and competent characters. If C'Boath had been the core villain of the Thrawn Saga I do not think it would be considered anywhere near the classic piece of Star Wars EU that it currently is. But hell, Kingpin was an amazing villain not because he wanted to control the world or even control Hell's Kitchen. He worked because he exuded a threat and seemed to have the intelligence to back that threat up. Despite having no powers he was more frightening than Tennant was.

A good manipulator is fun. Tennant's acting was great, but Killgrave wasn't really a good manipulator without his powers. He comes across more as Joffrey than any other character in recent memory, including C'Boath. A spoiled child lashing out at everyone including his little crush. Of course I was never afraid of Joffrey I just wanted to smack him.

Now maybe if I was ever in an abusive relationship he would come across as creepy. But since the idea of someone trying to control me with false intimacy strikes me more as an amusing waste of my abusers time. I don't have feelings of intimacy to prey upon. The last girlfriend I had that tried to give me an ultimatum ended with me laughing in her face.

[Clertar]

IRT Dienekes:

Spoiler

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I think that precisely, Kilgrave was a very good manipulator even without his powers. It's seen plenty of times, both implicitly and explicitly. From the way he plays with Jessica when he brings her to her old house, or the way he purchases this very house, to how he gets into everyboy's mind when he's trapped behind that glass cage, beginning with Jessica herself. He's a master manipulator, regardless of his power.

[No brains]

Could someone please explain this comic to me? http://hit-comic.com/comic/jessica-j...ix-apparently/

Does this joke work? Is this actually indicative of the show's content or tone? Would you say this is a fair joke on the show, or perhaps just a shallow jab at it? If I watch the show, will I be in for this kind of thing, or does this joke over-exaggerate?

Unfortunately for me, my first experience with noir detective stories was Who Framed Roger Rabbit, so I've been set up to never take them seriously. I think it could broaden my horizons to try, but if the show has a much booze as this this little joke implies, I'd have to try very hard.

[Dienekes]

IRT Dienekes:

Spoiler

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I think that precisely, Kilgrave was a very good manipulator even without his powers. It's seen plenty of times, both implicitly and explicitly. From the way he plays with Jessica when he brings her to her old house, or the way he purchases this very house, to how he gets into everyboy's mind when he's trapped behind that glass cage, beginning with Jessica herself. He's a master manipulator, regardless of his power.

Spoiler

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Really? Because both of those events were what convinced me he wasn't actually all that smart.

The bringing Jessica to her own home did exactly what to her mental state? Nothing, as far as I could tell. She came in wanting to kill/convict him. Didn't because his powers put people's lives at risk. He deluded himself into thinking that his rape victim would somehow love him, then had it blow up in his face. Because his rape victim didn't love him. I wonder who could have seen that coming? Everyone. Everyone who isn't a child anyway.

Then in his imprisonment, he had to do literally one thing: not use his powers in front of the cop. That'd force them to either start fighting each other or get him released. What does he do? He uses his powers in front of the cop to kill an elderly woman who he could have easily have killed without, if he needed her dead. Or, better yet, not killed her and show the cop that he's an innocent who's being tortured. Then get released and murder everyone.

The only character I can think of that he successfully manipulated was the lawyer. Who has to win some award for dumbest decision ever made. She knows of his power, she knows he's a complete amoral sociopath who kills and rapes and does all sorts of nonsense. And she still trusts him? Why? The only one who comes close would be Trish, for shooting the only thing keeping the mind controlling sociopath from controlling her and forcing her to kill herself. Which he then does. At least her poor decision making can be seen as trying to kill the villain, and I guess she just has a horrible shot, not being able to hit the guy standing still about 10 feet in front of her.

[Reddish Mage]

Could someone please explain this comic to me? http://hit-comic.com/comic/jessica-j...ix-apparently/

Does this joke work? Is this actually indicative of the show's content or tone? Would you say this is a fair joke on the show, or perhaps just a shallow jab at it? If I watch the show, will I be in for this kind of thing, or does this joke over-exaggerate?

Unfortunately for me, my first experience with noir detective stories was Who Framed Roger Rabbit, so I've been set up to never take them seriously. I think it could broaden my horizons to try, but if the show has a much booze as this this little joke implies, I'd have to try very hard.

I don't know what you are saying here. Jessica is pretty full of self-loathing and one of the ways she deals with it is with drink. The show's overall tone is pretty serious, with a few minor clown character exceptions whose messed up actions basically are indicative of what sort of ****-hole Jessica lives in

Spoiler: the show doesn't tell a tale of a tragic forbidden love, unrequited passion, and naive sexual exploration in a realm of power and submission

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yeah I'm talking about that couple

So if you get off a chuckle at seeing a straight rendition of a self-loathing private eye, that doesn't hold back on the unsavory reality of what most PI work comes down to, whatever.

To me the acting is very good and they really sells the reality of whats going on. Much better than watching cheesy 30's movies will.

I agree 100% with this...

Spoiler: more

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the entire origin was messed up from the comics... in the comics the fact that she is a failed hero informed her character, here it is just 2 jokes, one by her sister, and one from the guy she is doing...

I don't understand why they changed this...

I wasn't happy with Dare Devil, but I liked this more... I do wish

Spoiler: end of season 1

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they didn't kill killgrave... they set up the perfect 'we need him alive to prove this' then just killed him off... He was perfect to be a reason to have to build a new supermax prison...

Spoiler: officer simpson

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I hope we get to see more nuke...

Spoiler: Various parts of the season

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I think you have to be an avid fan of the comic to call the origin "messed up." The story here really doesn't work with flashbacks of Flying Jewel going around to save the day while dressed in a fancy costume. Jessica has plenty of reason to be a messed up failure of a person in this continuity, the hero thing was unneccessary.

Spoiler: Kilgrave and the whole season

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This guy really served his purpose thoroughly if not overmuch, he basically occupies the center of the plot not to mention Jessica's life, everyone around her, and by the end he gets involved with everyone in the whole darn show and by the end of the season, it was clear his time was over and he needed to be GONE for Jessica, for the rest of the characters, and for US to get over him, and be ready to move on to the next plot.

Spoiler: speculation - No Season Two

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I don't think Jessica Jones works best on her own as the central character going forward. They basically made Kilgrave central to everything in HER life and now he's gone. She is free but she also lacks a plot as personaly compelling as the guy that was literally in her head.

The IGH, we know they are the next plot, who created her and Kilgrave and Luke and his wife and Simpson (whats with this "nuke" stuff) they are not important, on a personal level, to Jessica. Jessica doesn't really care about her origins and said it flat out at the end. We should follow Luke and have Jessica as the more peripheral character.

[Sholos]

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Really? Because both of those events were what convinced me he wasn't actually all that smart.

The bringing Jessica to her own home did exactly what to her mental state? Nothing, as far as I could tell. She came in wanting to kill/convict him. Didn't because his powers put people's lives at risk. He deluded himself into thinking that his rape victim would somehow love him, then had it blow up in his face. Because his rape victim didn't love him. I wonder who could have seen that coming? Everyone. Everyone who isn't a child anyway.

Then in his imprisonment, he had to do literally one thing: not use his powers in front of the cop. That'd force them to either start fighting each other or get him released. What does he do? He uses his powers in front of the cop to kill an elderly woman who he could have easily have killed without, if he needed her dead. Or, better yet, not killed her and show the cop that he's an innocent who's being tortured. Then get released and murder everyone.

The only character I can think of that he successfully manipulated was the lawyer. Who has to win some award for dumbest decision ever made. She knows of his power, she knows he's a complete amoral sociopath who kills and rapes and does all sorts of nonsense. And she still trusts him? Why? The only one who comes close would be Trish, for shooting the only thing keeping the mind controlling sociopath from controlling her and forcing her to kill herself. Which he then does. At least her poor decision making can be seen as trying to kill the villain, and I guess she just has a horrible shot, not being able to hit the guy standing still about 10 feet in front of her.

I think this is a good time to remember that not everyone is a robot that acts perfectly and rationally in response to every situation.

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Is Kilgrave naive and kind of an idiot to expect Jessica to somehow love him just because he bought her house? Of course he is. That's part of the point. But guess what? Millions of adults every day do things that aren't rational, that make no sense. It's called being human. And the more narcissistic you are, the less likely you are to realize just how much something like his plan isn't going to work. That sequence is supposed to highlight that YES, Kilgrave does in fact genuinely expect Jessica to somehow love him. Hell, he doesn't even realize that he's raped her! He is not operating in the same reality as most people.

Did you miss the part where he does exactly that with Jessica? Literally the entire reason she goes and gets his parents is because she's betting that he will crack under that level of emotional duress. And he does. And again, that is the kind of behavior expected from someone who's been tortured and is almost at a breaking point when you shove something highly emotional in their face. Not to mention his mom literally just stabbed him. That kind of thing tends to put a damper on rational thinking.

As for Hogarth.... Okay yeah, I got nothing there. Everything she did there was pretty dumb. Even being driven by the "I super want my receptionist chick and want my wife to sign the papers and not lose anything"... That was just an incredibly dumb move. But blaming Trish for opening fire on Kilgrave and then missing? For one (and I hate sounding like a broken record) I'll again point out the extremely tense situation, one Trish has not been prepared for or trained for. Things were going back very quickly. She did what she thought she needed to. And it's absolutely not surprising she missed. I don't know if you've ever fired a gun at a target in a literal life-and-death situation, but I'm pretty sure there's a fair body of evidence that says untrained shooters' aim goes to merry heck in a situation like that.

[Dienekes]

I think this is a good time to remember that not everyone is a robot that acts perfectly and rationally in response to every situation.

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Is Kilgrave naive and kind of an idiot to expect Jessica to somehow love him just because he bought her house? Of course he is. That's part of the point. But guess what? Millions of adults every day do things that aren't rational, that make no sense. It's called being human. And the more narcissistic you are, the less likely you are to realize just how much something like his plan isn't going to work. That sequence is supposed to highlight that YES, Kilgrave does in fact genuinely expect Jessica to somehow love him. Hell, he doesn't even realize that he's raped her! He is not operating in the same reality as most people.

Did you miss the part where he does exactly that with Jessica? Literally the entire reason she goes and gets his parents is because she's betting that he will crack under that level of emotional duress. And he does. And again, that is the kind of behavior expected from someone who's been tortured and is almost at a breaking point when you shove something highly emotional in their face. Not to mention his mom literally just stabbed him. That kind of thing tends to put a damper on rational thinking.

As for Hogarth.... Okay yeah, I got nothing there. Everything she did there was pretty dumb. Even being driven by the "I super want my receptionist chick and want my wife to sign the papers and not lose anything"... That was just an incredibly dumb move. But blaming Trish for opening fire on Kilgrave and then missing? For one (and I hate sounding like a broken record) I'll again point out the extremely tense situation, one Trish has not been prepared for or trained for. Things were going back very quickly. She did what she thought she needed to. And it's absolutely not surprising she missed. I don't know if you've ever fired a gun at a target in a literal life-and-death situation, but I'm pretty sure there's a fair body of evidence that says untrained shooters' aim goes to merry heck in a situation like that.

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But that's just it, he doesn't act like a great manipulator, he acts like a naive, somewhat dumb normal guy. His great successes are the result of the other characters doing something dumb that happens to benefit him on their own, not on his great manipulation skills. With the exception of Hogarth. That was his one and only successful manipulation attempt, and it only worked because Hogarth seemed to drop about 50 IQ points during their meeting. Honestly, I somewhat suspect that's one of the reasons we aren't shown their conversation. Trying to think of what he had to say to her to make her aid him and convince her that it was the best choice is really strains your brain. It wasn't to make her betrayal a surprise, the scene with her in the walkway chamber holding the door before Jessica shows up, shows she's gonna betray them.