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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    Why to place the black stone?
    Maybe next semester an actual professor holds the class and you can actually learn something then?

    No matter what stone you put down, he'd pass/fail them no matter what happens, at least he claims so, so the course would be over.

    Not putting down any stone, or putting down both, might be the "correct" answer, but it's still totally silly.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    Why to place the black stone?
    Maybe next semester an actual professor holds the class and you can actually learn something then?

    No matter what stone you put down, he'd pass/fail them no matter what happens, at least he claims so, so the course would be over.

    Not putting down any stone, or putting down both, might be the "correct" answer, but it's still totally silly.
    He's challenging her Axiom that it is self-evident that people are better off when working together.

    Where they're probably going is saying that, if the ENTIRE class, or at least a substantial percentage of it, fails the course, then this professor, who is handing out free A's, will be put under academic review, and probably fired.

    In a perfect world, a professor who hands out free As the first day of class SHOULD be fired. But to bring about that Better World, a substantial fraction of the class would have to band together and play the Black Stones, or at least report him and invalidate their free As. If the students took the white stones, they would get free time and a GPA Boost.

    Now, they won't LEARN anything, but seeing that as a trade off requires the student to view the education of that class as being MORE important than free time, a free credit, and a GPA boost.

    So, you have two viewpoints.

    1: Getting the Free A is better
    2: Getting a bad teacher fired, and actually learning the material, is better.

    The second can only come to pass if a large number of students agree on it. The White Stone is the obvious choice, getting the class to place the black stones would require Allison (Who likely leans more towards the second view) To get them to act against their own immediate interests, in order to support her philosophical viewpoint. She would have to get everybody to work together against their own immediate interests.

    "We all need to work together" is the Axiom of a Tyrant because it assumes that everybody shares the same goals, and that everybody will benefit from the same outcome.

    With the stones, the professor has created a case where working together harms everybody, and NOT working together (or, at least people making decisions without any necessary coordination) benefits everybody who makes that decision.
    Last edited by BRC; 2016-04-12 at 05:49 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    While that is an arguable dilemma, I think it's much more likely that a condition of the game has yet to be stated.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    I'm quite fascinated by how viciously polarizing the character is, both positive and negative reactions towards him.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    The second can only come to pass if a large number of students agree on it.
    Actually I disagree here. All it takes is one person reporting him. If the university then watches and investigates him, and figures out that he's a) signing attendance sheets for students not there and b) maybe not even showing up to his own classes anymore, since nobody is there anyway (everyone either passed or failed already), and c) (if they watch it long enough) see that he passes all those non-attending people with an A grade, they have the proof.

    Of course it might just be some mindgame, and he never plans on actually going through with it, and just wants to demonstrate "see how many of you were willing to cheat".

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    Actually I disagree here. All it takes is one person reporting him. If the university then watches and investigates him, and figures out that he's a) signing attendance sheets for students not there and b) maybe not even showing up to his own classes anymore, since nobody is there anyway (everyone either passed or failed already), and c) (if they watch it long enough) see that he passes all those non-attending people with an A grade, they have the proof.

    Of course it might just be some mindgame, and he never plans on actually going through with it, and just wants to demonstrate "see how many of you were willing to cheat".
    Presumably he has cleared the mindgame with the dean, just like those real life professors who've put their students through the prisoner's dilemma. Every few years news sources reveal that a professor somewhere has done so with varying rewards. One famous test tested both groups of students and of prisoners for minor monetary rewards - the prisoners turned out to be more cooperative - another carried out yearly to new students by a professor promising course credits had the students fail nearly every time. (Note: In this case it was a mindgame with real rewards: students were awarded the credit points on the rare occasion when they succeeded in cooperating.)

    See e.g. this one on the credit-promising professor.
    Last edited by Deliverance; 2016-04-13 at 03:01 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deliverance View Post

    His version isn't a prisoner's dilemma. The students can find out it's coming, and communicate. And there's a Nash Equilibrium with maximum credits awarded; once almost 10% of the class has publicly declared their intent to take 6 points, every remaining student has a choice between 2 points and 0 and takes the 2.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    His version isn't a prisoner's dilemma. The students can find out it's coming, and communicate. And there's a Nash Equilibrium with maximum credits awarded; once almost 10% of the class has publicly declared their intent to take 6 points, every remaining student has a choice between 2 points and 0 and takes the 2.
    A nice hypothetical, and you are right that it is not a perfect prisoner's dilemma.

    However, the fact that only one his classes passed suggests that his students have not found out it was coming, communicated, and planned a strategy ahead of time agreed to a solution where 90% +1 person altruistically decide that 2 points are enough for them when 10% -1 person other than themselves get 6 points.

    Regardless of whether some or all students knew ahead of time, the results certainly suggest that they acted independently in their choices.
    Last edited by Deliverance; 2016-04-14 at 02:28 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    He just gave them the solution.

    Holy fudge, he just gave them the solution, and most of'em didn't even notice.

    :: Sighs :: Well. I have to admit, this is how it would go in the real world...
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Demiurge View Post
    He just gave them the solution.

    Holy fudge, he just gave them the solution, and most of'em didn't even notice.

    :: Sighs :: Well. I have to admit, this is how it would go in the real world...
    Well, why would anyone risk failing just for the chance that everyone passes? Just because that one guy one gets a black stone? Who cares, as long as I pass? Only a idiot would deliberatly put down the fail-the-class stone if they don't have to.

    Nah, I would have placed the black one as well. And not just because I would be in one room with Alison in this scenario. But I'm pretty sure (some of) the students that choose a white stone thought something like that. A shame not all of them follow Alison's axiom. I mean seriously? Only Al put down a black stone? That is just sad. I hope there are a few others offscreen.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    The more people that are added to the prisoner's dilemma, the more impossible it becomes that everyone is both altruistic, and trusts everyone else to be altruistic too. Someone in this group of strangers is going to pick the white stone, (maybe trolling, confused on the rules, being a jerk, making a point or just using this logic) and that guy the teacher singled out is going to fail, along with anyone who tries to save him. Why should I join in the failing?
    Last edited by Spojaz; 2016-04-15 at 02:46 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    Yeah, I know.

    Depressing, but so it goes.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    Now we get to circle back to tearing down our protagonist. "Gee, looks like we DONT "got this" hmm ms green?" He can even have more fun than usual with her because she does NOT want to go and complain again and get yet another teacher fired due to the school falling over itself to keep her happy. So now he can really mess with her about how she has now failed the course due to her highly flawed axiom for her life and yadda yadda. Just to keep poking at her and see what she comes up with next.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    I'm convinced now that this is just a demonstration on how egoistic human beings are, even if they're presented with an option that's best for everyone.

    Otherwise there's no way that guy he took the white stone from couldn't sue the university and that professor.
    You can argue everyone else who put down the black stone chose so for himself to fail, but that first guy didn't.

    If it's not, then Allison better uses her superpower ("university wants to make her happy") to get him fired, it will be better for all future generations at that school.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    I'm convinced now that this is just a demonstration on how egoistic human beings are, even if they're presented with an option that's best for everyone.
    Is it only now, that you've realized that the teacher in the philosophical study of values is busy teaching about values?

    ...or are you pulling our legs, here.

    He's been teaching from the moment he entered the class room. One may differ with his approach, but it is hardly an unknown one in philosophy. The only real question is how far he takes it and how emotionally invested he lets the students get before launching into a longer explanation examining motives and the values displayed, inviting further discussion with a class that by then should be fully engaged.


    EDIT: Rereading my post I can see it may come off as patronizing. That was not intended, and did it give offense, my apologies.
    Last edited by Deliverance; 2016-04-16 at 05:55 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    Its an interesting theoretical scenario, but I think the set up is unrealistic (far too clean cut, black and white). I can see what he's driving at, but it emphasizes risk far too strongly by making it an all or nothing scenario.

    In addition, calling Allison's axiom tyrannical because of it makes assumptions on how she'd handle disagreement. Just because ideally everyone cooperates for the common good doesn't mean that you have to force everyone to work together.

    Lastly... I have a problem with every single student having a white stone at the end of it. Come on, not everyone is that selfish.
    And if everyone in SFP's world is that selfish, I think Gurwara just proved that benevolent tyranny isn't such a bad idea after all.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Demiurge View Post
    He just gave them the solution.

    Holy fudge, he just gave them the solution, and most of'em didn't even notice.

    :: Sighs :: Well. I have to admit, this is how it would go in the real world...
    You act as though you wouldn't have done the exact same thing and put down a white stone. Of course you would have. If you put down a white stone then you pass, 100% guaranteed. If you put down a black stone then only in the case where literally everyone else takes the same risk and there isn't a single person who says to themselves "I'm worried someone will betray the confidence, I'd better give myself the 100% guarantee" do you succeed. 100% vs 1%? Obviously you take the 100%. That's what they've done. It's not that they didn't notice, it's that they're each willing to let blue-shirt take the fall to secure themselves. Only someone like Allison who is very convinced in her morals would act like you and assume that every other person in the class is willing to put themselves in risk for their combined good, when they could have the same personal outcome without a risk. Especially since if everyone passes it's not like they get anything better than they would if they put out the white stone, the difference is purely altruistic.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    I would've put up a black stone merely to make a statement that I'm in class to learn things, not get grades.

    Then again, I've had people say to my face "people like you don't exist" when I've done sufficiently weird stuff. So I'm not the best representative for the rest of humanity.
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  19. - Top - End - #79
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    Next comic. He has everyone drop their chosen stone in a glass of paint remover, that reveals all the stones were actually the opposite color underneath a thin coat of paint. Cause he's not nearly done milking this situation for all it's worth.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Next comic. He has everyone drop their chosen stone in a glass of paint remover, that reveals all the stones were actually the opposite color underneath a thin coat of paint. Cause he's not nearly done milking this situation for all it's worth.
    He certainly is not. Now he has to move forward with the point he was trying to make, and as I said, most likely circling back to our protagonist. Probably to start inquiring as to how it feels to be proven so utterly wrong in her "we got this" stance. Where sure, things would be better if everyone could work together for the common good, but they wont, because people tend to be selfish and not willing to risk their personal happiness for others. There are exceptions sure, but thats why they are considered heroes and superheros, not "That girl over there" Because they are exceptions to the norm and thus unusual enough to notice.
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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    He certainly is not. Now he has to move forward with the point he was trying to make, and as I said, most likely circling back to our protagonist. Probably to start inquiring as to how it feels to be proven so utterly wrong in her "we got this" stance. Where sure, things would be better if everyone could work together for the common good, but they wont, because people tend to be selfish and not willing to risk their personal happiness for others. There are exceptions sure, but thats why they are considered heroes and superheros, not "That girl over there" Because they are exceptions to the norm and thus unusual enough to notice.
    She hasn't been proven wrong. In fact, what you've said here indicates that you agree with the value she espoused - you just don't think it has practical implementation.

    Similarly, this modification of the prisoner's dilemma (a modification that leaves out a fairly big piece, I might add) simply raises a difficulty her axiom will encounter in reality. It does not challenge the validity of her assertion in the slightest, as there was, at least theoretically, a 'perfect' outcome if people worked together.

    Proving her wrong would require proving that the results of working together aren't good. All that has been proved here is that working together is hard.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    So, I'm pretty sure (and I have been for the past couple pages) that the whole point of what he's been saying is that "everybody has different bases of beliefs but because these axioms are unstated, people just assume everyone else has the same." Seems like he's trying to get the classmates to viscerally understand this point, rather than just academically understand it.
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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    He certainly is not. Now he has to move forward with the point he was trying to make, and as I said, most likely circling back to our protagonist. Probably to start inquiring as to how it feels to be proven so utterly wrong in her "we got this" stance. Where sure, things would be better if everyone could work together for the common good, but they wont, because people tend to be selfish and not willing to risk their personal happiness for others. There are exceptions sure, but thats why they are considered heroes and superheros, not "That girl over there" Because they are exceptions to the norm and thus unusual enough to notice.
    I think you're painting him as too vindictive a person, and unprofessional. He's not here to attack people or belittle their beliefs, he's just trying to make a point about axioms. About someone who assumes something to be absolutely true, and the inflexibility of those beliefs ending up working against them. He's not trying to prove her axiom is wrong, and that the true axiom is "we're all in this for ourselves," he's trying to say that for her to expect that her own beliefs should be applied to everyone else is a problematic position for her to stand in. I think he'd be making this point regardless of what axiom she chose. He'd be designing something like this even if her axiom was "You've got to look out for number one."

    What I expect this is going towards is that Allison is going to become angry with the other students for not putting down a black stone and banding together for the benefit of the blueshirt. They're going to say they have no reason to risk themselves, and point out that everyone else didn't, and so no individual would have been smart to. She'll get angrier and try to coerce them into putting down a black stone, and that's how the "axiom of the tyrant" who tries to enforce their own beliefs onto other people comes out. It won't be the teacher being a jerk, he's just expressing how some people may not agree with the axioms that she thinks are absolute.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmberVael View Post
    Its an interesting theoretical scenario, but I think the set up is unrealistic (far too clean cut, black and white). I can see what he's driving at, but it emphasizes risk far too strongly by making it an all or nothing scenario.

    In addition, calling Allison's axiom tyrannical because of it makes assumptions on how she'd handle disagreement. Just because ideally everyone cooperates for the common good doesn't mean that you have to force everyone to work together.

    Lastly... I have a problem with every single student having a white stone at the end of it. Come on, not everyone is that selfish.
    And if everyone in SFP's world is that selfish, I think Gurwara just proved that benevolent tyranny isn't such a bad idea after all.
    Nope, but some of the class-mates may put it down simply to be contrary to Allison's expectations. Most of the people in that class are probably well aware that putting down a black or white rock is ultimately not going to amount to anything since the prof doesn't have any actual power to hand out As and failures as freely as that.

    So it stands to reason that there are people who are putting down a white stone, not to say that they want an A, but to say that "I really don't want to cooperate with Al". Which isn't that surprising. Al has very little patience or respect for the viewpoints of others.

    Speaking of, I hope that this arc will tie back to the Feral arc somehow. Because back then, Al was arguing from a selfish point of view. Feral was acting in a manner that was from a utilitarian philosophical view the correct choice. While Al was arguing that in no way should she have to suffer like that for the benefit of others. It would actually be a very interesting angle to bring in on Al's "everyone is better off when we work together" axiom.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maryring View Post
    Nope, but some of the class-mates may put it down simply to be contrary to Allison's expectations. Most of the people in that class are probably well aware that putting down a black or white rock is ultimately not going to amount to anything since the prof doesn't have any actual power to hand out As and failures as freely as that.

    So it stands to reason that there are people who are putting down a white stone, not to say that they want an A, but to say that "I really don't want to cooperate with Al". Which isn't that surprising. Al has very little patience or respect for the viewpoints of others.
    I can accept that there are a variety of reasons for people putting down a white stone, and even that a lot of people might go for it. Even that some might go for it out of spite. On the other hand, we've also had a number of people in this thread express that they would have gone for the black stone, so I find it rather ham-handed that the only people with a black stone are the guy who was forced into having one, and Alison.

    I also think knowing that it won't actually impact your grade (because it totally won't) would encourage some people to take the "riskier" option, since they don't actually risk anything by doing it.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    This isn't prisoner's dilemma. Nor is it leaving "an important piece out". This is a different thought experiment making a different point.

    More generally, not all situations where trust and co-operation versus non-co-operation are important questions face the dilemma.

    Indeed, mathematically speaking, trying to co-operate to save one guy in the teacher's scenario has strictly worse expected returns than acting in rational self-interest, because it only takes one traitor to doom more than one person.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    That whole scene makes me cringe. First he directed his questioning to take the argument into a corner where he was well prepared all the way to props while the students, not knowing what to expect, would have no preparation, and phrased his counter points to associate the student's words with socially condemned traits to use shame to keep them off-balance.
    Then he takes the statement to his chosen conclusion without first asking the student to define it further: how widely does it apply? What's an acceptable cost to implement it?
    Her point is that "cooperation is good" but he answers assuming it implies "cooperation is automatic" - if the students don't spontaneously behave in an altruistic way in a game, then the desirability of cooperation is disproven? That's just off the point.
    The others have pointed many flaws in the rules of his game as well, but I'll add one: the behavior he expects is predictable, and any student putting down a black stone would be visibly disobeying his scenario and risk being the next target.

    A good teacher can't be this antagonistic; that excludes all shy students from participating in the class, and the ones who do participate get pushed around enough to get defensive, only to realise later that nothing was legitimately questioned. That's no philosophy, that's Reddit!
    A teacher can't let a more assertive student hog the talking time, but going for intimidation is not going to encourage the others to come out. Allison is a very aggressive character, she might be the last silenced by that tactic.

    Maybe there's a twist ahead and he's actually trying to see if the class can recognise bad rhetoric, but he still sent the message that this is a class where you keep your head down.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    Look at Alison's smug nogging when the master rule is introduced. She is expecting co-operation as if it's automatic or obvious. I think it's wrong to argue her axiom doesn't need to be read that way when the art implies she is reading it that way.

    Edit: and I don't think "keeping your head down" actually works with this kind of teacher. The moment you start playing possum and lull yourself into sense of false security, he will switch tactics and coax an answer out of a random person. There was already shades of this with his "mindless automaton"quip".
    Last edited by Frozen_Feet; 2016-04-17 at 11:37 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    You never actually had a teacher like that, did you? That method doesn't work. He'd pick on a few shy kids into dropping out or his class sure, you're right about that, but eventually a couple students end up learning to anticipate the answers he wants to hear, he's got his victory and coasts on for the rest of the semester, and the students leave with the reinforced belief that general education classes are a waste of time.


    Also: we'll have to wait to see what the dialogue is to know what Allison actually meant, but the teacher did make an assumption with insufficient information, only to lead the discussion into the demonstration he had prepared regardless. Best case scenario on the next page Allison points out that his demonstration is unrelated to the actual argument. Likely scenario she's too riled up to phrase stuff properly and has to call it quits.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist II

    I've had plenty of teachers who utilized tactics like this. Granted, the environment was different in that dropping out wasn't an option. But I do think your analysis is faulty because in my experience most teachers playing tricks like this play bait-and-switch. The moment a student starts giving what they want, they stop picking them or change what they want to push them back outside their comfort zone. The only equilibrium that could be reached by your chain of logic is for every student to drop out.
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