[NWoD] A Mage getting Embraced

[Ultra4Life]

First let me say that the base assumption here is that the Mage loses all his Mage powers (and by extension that this is happening against his will since who would give that up for the crap-fest that is vampiric existence in the NWoD). Not talking about template stacking. I'm also not talking about a rule on how to convert his Arcana over to Disciplines.

My main question is what would happen from an in character perspective? How would his Order respond to this? Would they immediately turn on him and be out for his undead blood, or would they respect his previous accomplishments in the Order's name and keep him on in a sort of advisory or under cover role? Or maybe they just cut him loose on the knowledge that if he ever even shows up as a blip on their radar they'll immediately put him down hard.

And what about the vampires? Assuming this was done against his will I'm kinda assuming that this was done as something of a cruel punishment. Imagine how much a Mage would be pissed off to find out that no, when he was finally overwhelmed/outmaneuvered that the vampires didn't kill him but turned him into one of them permanently ripping away a portion of his identity, his powers, his soul to live a hollow shell of a life for however long it takes for him to finally get offed. Or maybe it was something else, like some rogue vamp got lucky without realizing he was a mage.

So what are your opinions on this? How do you think this would play out? More specifically how you think the various Orders would respond to this situation along with the Covenants? This isn't really for a game or anything, just something that popped into my head that got me thinking.

[Quertus]

My main question is what would happen from an in character perspective? How would his Order respond to this? Would they immediately turn on him and be out for his undead blood, or would they respect his previous accomplishments in the Order's name and keep him on in a sort of advisory or under cover role? Or maybe they just cut him loose on the knowledge that if he ever even shows up as a blip on their radar they'll immediately put him down hard.

So what are your opinions on this? How do you think this would play out?

If they are smart/knowledgeable/wise, his former friends will a) stay clear of him, or b) realize that they are mages, reality is their play thing, and bring him back to life.

Order of Hermes of course has some experience with this, and with Tremere poaching their members. Honestly, if they haven't invented a spell yet to secretly replace their members immediately before being embraced, well, they should have.

Of course, mortality being an issue, even for mages (that's why we have Tremere in the first place), don't discount the possibility that this embrace was voluntary.

[Ultra4Life]

I should mention this is specifically for New World of Darkness. I only say this because I'm not sure if when you say Tremere you mean the Tremere Vampires of the Classic World of Darkness, or the Tremere Liches of the New World of Darkness.

Even then I'd think turning a Vampire back to a living breathing human would require at minimum Death 6, and probably some high Life Arcanum (To avoid "Congratulations, he is no longer undead, now he's a body that's not breathing and his heart is stopped" complications). Possibly some Spirit skill if the Storyteller decides that's needed to remove the Beast from them.

Regardless of the actual mechanics, I'd think that it'd require substantial ability and that would in turn require the Mage to have known someone with that ability. I highly doubt a Gnosis 2 Mage would know anyone that skilled well enough to rely on their input. Not that this Mage is that weak, but just an example.

But let's add a new assumption just because saying "Change it back" kinda just ends the discussion too soon. Let's add that for whatever reason, whether it be simply an impossibility of the setting, or just lacking access to the ability necessary to pull it off that returning a Vampire to life is not an option. Let's also assume the Mage in question is at most Gnosis 2 to rule out any of his Arcana being at 5 or higher. This is mostly to make it clear he's not some higher up Mage, and also make it at least somewhat believable that this could happen to him because yes Mages can warp reality on a whim, but if he's relatively weak it's much easier for him to get caught off guard. After all, he's probably fairly new at this so he might not know to always be prepared for literally anything at all times.

[TheOOB]

I'm fairly certain any creature with a major template, even if they have since lost their powers would die upon being embraced, major templates are terminal conditions, once you have one you can get no further templates, ever.

However, if at ST you decide to let this happen, mechanically they would just favor the more magical disciplines.

As far as I can see, mages would either want to a) kill the character, or more likely b) study them, neither of which would end well for the character. Considering that mages can really really effective against vampires this will be really dangerous.

Other vampires would be unlikely to care. Vampires tend to care little about other supernatural types, being the most self centered monsters out there, and I doubt vampires as a whole know mages exist. Vampires also tend to distrust each other in the best of circumstances, so I don't see that changing.

[themaque]

I'm not checking my references so I may be off base, but briefly first on Old WoD. If you where embraced you could transfer over much of your power into new powers. Mind into Dominate and most anything into Thaumaturgy.

Also in Old World of Darkness there was a spell to bring Vampires back to life, but it was crazy high level and near pointless. Soul, Life, & Matter 5 and it only worked for 24 hours. Their reasoning being that Vampirism was a curse from god and you could never roll more successes than god.

Now in NEW World of Darkness both Vampires and Mages have slightly different back stories but I think the same should/could apply. Vampire powers are highly specialized compared to Mage powers and their end game much less powerful. I would probably also keep that becoming a Vampire is a one way track.

[Ultra4Life]

Again, this isn't a Mage versus Vampire thread, or one about the mechanical drop in power from Mage to Vampire/how to handle it in system, or about how you'd turn one back. I wanted to hear opinions on how individual Orders might respond. I know the immediate response of Mages in general to this is always "Kill/experiment on 'em". Not looking for broad generalization of all Mages.

For example, maybe the Mysterium might see the opportunity for the newly vamped mage to enter one of the Covenants with access to blood sorcery and see how it works along with how it compares to true magic. Maybe the Adamantine Arrow views this as a challenge for the former Mage to overcome. Things of that nature.

[themaque]

Anything we suggest would be wild speculation without knowing who is in charge in your world. nWoD is good about making sure that not everyone from one particular order is a cookie cutter copy of all the others.

Why DID the Vampire embrace him? Does he want to take him on as an protege? Was he left loose or taken into the fold immediately? If it's being done as a punishment, then they would also probably put a hunter of some sort on his path. Either former comrades who would Kill/Abuse him in his new form or some mortal agency that could also play havoc for the mages as well. Is this one move in a larger scheme or a more personal attack for some reason?

[Ultra4Life]

Well this is supposed to just be speculation and opinion so saying that speculation and guessing is kinda pointless goes against the idea of the thread. I did say that this isn't for a game, just talking about it. I'm not planning on running any games where a mage gets vamped, nor am I in a game where that is happening or ever happened.

I've just always seen discussions similar to this that always go "LOL If a mage gets embraced he sucks so he should get killed" (which usually comes from the same people that ignore that mages from an in character setting don't understand have access to the Mage: The Awakening rulebook to let them know all the mechanically effective combos and the like) or "Nothing happens mages can't be embraced". So with the latter, this is just something that can happen for the sake of the discussion. As for the former, there's several ways it could happen (more below).

But they never cover how the five listed Orders in the core book (Guardians of the Veil, Adamantine Arrow, Free Council, Mysterium, Silver Ladder) would respond to this. It's always just "Mages toast the vampire or experiment on him". And I don't like that because it's like saying, "All humans respond to insults with murder". Now with Vampires I can understand that type of thing a bit more since all members of certain clans have curses that can and probably do affect their personal viewpoints. Plus all Vampires have to put up with the beast, and other generic aspects of their curse.

For Mages though I disagree with it mainly because for all their phenomenal cosmic power they're still human and humans can and do have diverse viewpoints (which most books make clear since almost every book's stereotypes section has a statement on Mages that can be summed up as "They're still just human"). Now I understand the hypocrisy of asking for generalizations for the Orders, but Organizations are a bit different than saying "Mages in general" since Organizations have clear cut goals and positions on subjects. It's kind of like saying "What is a Republican's opinion on subject XXXX?" You could get an answer since the party has clear cut political opinions.

Admittedly for White Wolf games it is a lot more interpretive, but they do still give a fairly lengthy description of each Order from which you can get an idea of what the organization is like, so I know this is going to be speculative, and it's going to be based on your own personal interpretation on those orders, but that doesn't make it any less valuable or interesting to hear your opinion on the matter. The point is speculation. I want personal interpretations. If you don't think any of the below examples would warrant anything other than getting toasted on the spot/locked up in a torture dungeon for tests, then put out an example that would get a different response.


Anyway, here's a few examples of how a Mage could end up Embraced:

Example 1: Mage antagonized the local Vampires a little too much

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Fairly powerful mage moved to town and decided he isn't taking crap from no one. Local Vamps initially decided to make a truce with him. They don't want to deal with him, and he shouldn't want to deal with them. Except he's a pretty arrogant guy who thinks, "Yeah right! I'm a *Mage*, I'm way better than these bloodsuckers. I don't need a truce with these guys." So he gives them the finger and walks off. The Vampires aren't too happy, but whatever they warned him.

Time passes and over time he ends up butting heads with local vampires, frying ones who prey on mortals in his presence (even if they don't kill the blood bag), messing with the perception of time on a few and watching them burn in the morning sun, things like that. Eventually the higher ups decide they've had enough. They tried to have a working relationship with this punk and they spat in his face. He's also proven himself dangerous enough that he's a threat to all of them.

So they do something about it. They send the mage a warning. The mage goes "PFFT! Yeah well anyone comes for me I can take them." Cept the problem is this mage doesn't seem to understand that vampires' greatest strength isn't their combat prowess (though some are certainly a terror). It's social prowess. For starters the mage wakes up to find his assets frozen. This annoys him, but whatever. Then he finds his car is missing. Now this is starting to get on his nerves. Then he recieves a package with his dog's severed head inside. It includes a note saying "We warned you".

Now he's angry. These vamps don't know who they're messing with! So he uses divinations to find where those vamps in charge of what's going on are. After all he met them before, so he can find them pretty easily. Except he doesn't realize that century old vampires don't get to be that old by being stupid and easy to kill. He never met them, he met cut outs who claimed to be them. He storms their office and gets ready to kill them. He does fry one of them but then he notices something weird is going on right before he passes out.

See the vamps figured what would happen and placed their cut outs in a trap. The room was set up with the air vents hooked up to nitrogen tanks. Those would displace the air and effectively let him suffocate, and since it's odorless and tasteless by the time he realized what was going on it was too late.

Now if the so desire the vamps can embrace him as a "Screw you" by taking away his magic, the source of all that arrogance. Plus now he'll need to play by their games/suck up to them if he wants to survive.

Example 2: He just got unlucky

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While doing whatever he does during he day the Mage finds out his best friend since childhood died. This hits him pretty hard, so when evening comes he goes to a bar and gets hammered out of his skull. Later that night he heads home. Since he's really, really drunk he doesn't bother to pay attention to his surroundings and he ends up wandering down an alleyway. Some Vamp recently decided he/she wants to sire someone for whatever reason and grabs the mage for the reason of "first one to come by". Mage is too drunk to identify what's going on and by the time he can boom he's been embraced.

Example 3: Deal with the Daeva(l)

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A mage is getting older, and his awakening happened when he was already getting on in years so he's not skilled enough to use high level Death spells to extend his life. He doesn't want to die, so he makes a deal with some vampires to be embraced.

Example 4: Manipulated by fellow mages

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One Mage wondered this very question, along with whether or not it's possible/whether they would keep their powers. So they set up a fellow mage to get embraced.

But the important part is that there is no real one way this is happening, this is all hypothetical. I have no planned method for this because it's not happening in a game. If you have your own ideas as to how this would happen then say them and how you think things would play out.

[Cirrylius]

Perhaps the easiest way to break down Order response is by default; someone in the Guardians will want to mindwipe you, minimum, someone in the Mysterium will want to keep you in a cage and siphon off your blood, etc. Which of those actually happens depends on the strength and unity of localized leadership, popularity and number of allies, and whether or not the individual/Order/Consilium in question respects, values, or fears the mage before embrace. A Silver Ladder diplomancer will have an easier time slipping the consequences than a Mysterium dark-archives authority or a Arrow magekiller assassin.

All the Orders have good reason to be interested- how much scheming there is and how much leeway you get from your own kind will show as much variety as any opinion of 'splat treason' would. Or even regular treason, I guess.

On the subject of the Embrace's logistics; Mages are overconfident, often, and it probably wouldn't take a vampire a long time to work that out. Vampires would show healthy caution, not to say paranoia, when dealing with an unknown like a mage, but eventually they'll probably go slow and subtle for the best chance of entrapment. Secret blood bonds, mind Disciplines- if the target prefers gross over subtle Arcana, they could be at a serious disadvantage. The mage, ideally, would come under control slowly and quietly enough to be able to continue to draw intelligence on other mages, and to gauge what response will be forthcoming. Worst-case scenario, a ghouled mage could continue to be an active security risk long before the Embrace, provided they take preliminary steps and plan ahead.

(This, of course, only covers a deliberate, malicious, targeted embrace)

[comicshorse]

" Hi, welcome to the Order Dracul, we have so much to talk about "

[irondude]

Depends ENTIRELY on who the character was, what group[s] he belonged to, and the circunstances of the embrace.

I'm no expert at all on the NWoD (I much preffer the old), but assuming the mage belonged to one the Atlantean Orders, well I'd assume this is not the first time in their recorded history something like this happens, and it's likely they already have a protocol on how to deal with this.

The key factors are: 1) how popular the character was and 2) what do the order in question believe that happens to a vampire? Question #2 is the most important. Do they believe that vampirism is a terrible curse, or that the monster isn't even their friend anymore, just a horrible creature that uses his/her memories? (for more of that, read ummmmm, the current orc of the order of the stick comic - it's rather good). If they believe the first, well, the best analogy is, whan would happen in real life if a friend of your got a incurable, mostly non-transmitable disease that gives her/him horrible mood swings? Would that infection exclude that person of your group? Or would they find a place in said group for that person?

In this scenario, the character is still a person, and it's likely that, if (s)he was popular - and the organization open minded - they would find a place for the new vampire - and even a USE for the vampire, if the organization is political and ambitious enough. Think about it this way: you're a loyal and enthusiastic member of your mage chapter, and suddenly some random monster steals your mage mojo and turns you into a vampire. You know nothing of vampire society, you aren't that sure of what you are anymore. Likely scenario, you get back to your mage buddies for help. Once everybody realizes what you are and that they can't help you, well now it depends on the vampire and the mage society itself. Maybe they can find a place for the vampire - they would be great as record keepers, for instance, with their immortality and everything. They might find a way to feed the vampire (buying from the blood bank perhaps) without need for violence. Maybe the vampire will discriminate himself and leave, maybe the group will discard him. What would a sport team does to a player that can't walk anymore? Does the former player finds a new role for himself as coach or assistant? Does the group reject him? Does he rejects himself? This is a powerful theme, and would say a lot on the character and both the vampire and the mage chapter.

But what if the character is no longer himself? What if he pulls a Durkula? Like in the comic (read it - it's neat!) at least some mages would suspect that, and mages tend to be smarter at it than Belkar. Again, not an expert on NWoD, but I'd like to think that the Atlanteans would have lore about this. Sooner of later, it's likely that the vampire would be at least banished, if not outright hunted and killed, and for safe measure, the sire as well (most mages are against losing their mage mojo, after all). Of course, in this scenario, it would also depend on the ethics on the mage chapter. Do they care of the person embraced on the first place? If not, they might find a use for the vampire, after all, maybe - as some suggested - as experimental suspect, or as an assassin. The vampire might not now of vampire societies, after all, and might embrace it's new role. More ethical groups would try to destroy the vampire, specially the friends of the embracee, hoping to free their friend's soul.

So it would really come downon what do the mages think happens in the embrace, Who they are, and WHO the character was/is. And in medium/long term, what vampire societies are in the area and THEIR ethics. In the oWoD, the camarilla would likely label the character a caitiff, and would more likely eventually approach the character lo make sure the character understands the traditions and their non-optional nature (or outright kill the vampire, depending of who the sheriff is and who's the prince). oWoD Vampire is all about politics, and likely they would use the embracee and their mistakes as charges against the sire (who not only embraced without permission, but hasn't presented the childe to the prince, thus the sire is responsible for him or her). The sabbat would likely kidnap the character as part of the embrace, do the graveyard thing, and use her/him as cannon fodder until (s)he demonstrates to be a true sabbat. Dunno what the policies of the NWoD societies are, and depending of the support that embracee gets from the mage society, he might be out of the radar from the other vampires for a long time.