LGBTAI+ #57 Infinity: I Love You, Always Forever

[EternalMelon]

This actually sounds like fantastic advice. A good way to avoid word-vomiting incoherently when you first open up to someone. I'm gonna shamelessly steal this idea the next time I have something stewing in my mind.

No need to steal what I'm giving away for free, hope this helps you too then.

You speak wisdom. This is also the kind of thing that kinda... gets better if you can avoid feeding it? Due to the way human psychology works, if you take the action of apologizing, your brain will immediately start rationalizing that decision, basically convincing you that you were right to apologize, no matter what other people tell you. It's one of those things where "fake it 'til you make it" can actually make an appreciable difference.
Opening up to someone you trust also helps quell that desire to put yourself down all over the place, since you have a healthier outlet and way to deal with those thoughts.

Hey, glad you like my advice. My knee-jerk reaction to someone having a problem is to say "that sucks" and then give advice, and I realise sometimes people don't necessarily want advice. I also realise that I don't know the answers to everything too, so a lot of the time I have to rely on my opinions and past experiences for my advice. So as I said before, grain, salt, ect.

Oh, come on! A lot of the whole "Self Esteem" issue is purely outside fed and ceases to exist once you get cut off the source of those really high and unachievable expectations.

Yeah, toxic people and societal pressures are a large part of self esteem issues. Florians probably right that looking into outside factors like these should be one of the first things you do...

When I was a youth, I was already good looking but very androgynous (You now, early 90s). I was crushed when I heard the sentence "What a beautiful girl, but why are you wearing black biker leather, my dear?". I always had a very soft voice and speak very silently. The then new influence of anime and hollywood movies did the rest: I did´t feel right, torn between role models. Gave me an identity crisis.

I stopped caring about all of that. Shut it out. Unplugged my TV, started to visit the local Jazz scene instead, moved away from all the people that tried to step on my back to elevate themselves for a while.

And it helped. I found me and, to me surprise, I actually liked me.

I'm glad you figured your situation out. But I feel there is a difference between identity issues and low self esteem.

[Florian]

But I feel there is a difference between identity issues and low self esteem.

Then I feel that you feel wrong ;)

Sense of your own worth and your overall position in society based on that sense of worth, aka self esteem, is pretty much a fundamental part of identity, you know, "That thing that I identify myself as being". Simply put, self esteem is a long-term personality trait everyone of us possesses.

That´s part of why I´m always a bit baffled when people tread it as simply being a hurdle in the way of getting things done. That part deals with confidence and is another matter entirely.

[Astrella]

I found a cute two-chapter manga about a trans woman and her girlfriend: Ayumi and Aika.

[golentan]

Then I feel that you feel wrong ;)

Sense of your own worth and your overall position in society based on that sense of worth, aka self esteem, is pretty much a fundamental part of identity, you know, "That thing that I identify myself as being". Simply put, self esteem is a long-term personality trait everyone of us possesses.

That´s part of why I´m always a bit baffled when people tread it as simply being a hurdle in the way of getting things done. That part deals with confidence and is another matter entirely.

Heck, last week I saw a paper that suggested that trauma isn't what causes PTSD, but rather the lack of social support networks and the feeling of isolation that comes after it.

[Astrella]

I sort of stumbled my way into a relationship today. 'Doing the couple thing', as she put it. I was terribly worried that telling her I'm trans would put her off or prompt her to decide she isn't attracted to me, but she told me it didn't matter at all and that she liked me. So... that's pretty sweet, even though we live several thousand kilometers apart. But I really like her, and she seems to like me, and that renders the distance pretty meaningless, I think.

Awww, happy for you!

[Icewraith]

Heck, last week I saw a paper that suggested that trauma isn't what causes PTSD, but rather the lack of social support networks and the feeling of isolation that comes after it.

There might be something to that. It certainly doesn't help.

[Heliomance]

What are people's opinions on this whole mess with the X men Apocalypse poster?

[goto124]

Which poster? is it related to LGBT issues? They all seem meh, like a lot of other movie posters that have the various characters posing about.

I suppose you mean the one where Mystique gets strangled.

IMHO, the poster shows that females are on the same level as males - casual violence has long been established to be more or less gender-equal and something that's part and parcel of the genre. I would consider it sexist if no females are allowed to get beaten up, because they're fighters just like the males. Why shouldn't they get caught in the consequences every once a while?

It's far from sexualised violence, too. It would have been bad if the camera focused on her butt, or she was tied up in a manner reminiscent of BDSM. But here, we can't even see anything below their necks. I personally don't see how the poster portrayed violence against women as a desirable thing that men should do. It's presented as a pivotal moment, something very serious that's going on.

(Chrome, why do you spellcheck "sexualised" as "bisexual"?)

[Athedia]

I honestly don't have an issue with the poster. It sexualizes Mystique much less than other media and makes me actually care about an X-men movie for the first time in a bit. I LIKE Mystique, I want to see if she lives.

[Lissou]

I found the poster boring and not making me want to see the movie, even though I do want to see it. The poster is meh to me, though. It doesn't really tell me anything about the movie except that there is violence in it, and I expected that.

[Professor Gnoll]

I think the fact that it's the villain strangling her, in a non-sexualised manner, makes the idea that it's somehow glorifying violence against women... completely ridiculous. Seriously, some of the attempts to paint movies as sexist is getting ridiculous, especially when there's perfectly legitimate sexism that could be being pointed out instead.

[noparlpf]

It's not relevant whether or not violence is gender-neutral though (and it's not really; even in a lot of these movies the sidekick superheroine still gets a sidekick supervillainess to fight while the white male MC superhero fights the supervillain, so even if women get to participate in violence, it's clear that they're not considered equal to men), because with no context for the scene, this is just a large masculine figure choking a woman. An actual fight scene involving a man and a woman would be one thing, but without the context for the rest of the scene, all we have to work with is the context of a society that is still about men dominating women, often through physical violence or the threat of physical violence. And when it comes up in real life, women are not treated equally. Look at how the media treated Amber Heard just last month.

And there is that whole debate about how a lot of the porn for straight men these days involves men choking women, so...

[goto124]

because with no context for the scene, this is just a large masculine figure choking a woman. An actual fight scene involving a man and a woman would be one thing,

To be honest, even without knowing the exact context, knowledge of the genre already says that this is part of an actual fight in a movie filled to the brim with fight scenes.

Nothing below the shoulder can be seen, either. While historical precedence is unfortunate, I'm really happy to see this sort of steps taken to equalize and unsexualise female characters.

[Heliomance]

It's not relevant whether or not violence is gender-neutral though (and it's not really; even in a lot of these movies the sidekick superheroine still gets a sidekick supervillainess to fight while the white male MC superhero fights the supervillain, so even if women get to participate in violence, it's clear that they're not considered equal to men), because with no context for the scene, this is just a large masculine figure choking a woman. An actual fight scene involving a man and a woman would be one thing, but without the context for the rest of the scene, all we have to work with is the context of a society that is still about men dominating women, often through physical violence or the threat of physical violence. And when it comes up in real life, women are not treated equally. Look at how the media treated Amber Heard just last month.

And there is that whole debate about how a lot of the porn for straight men these days involves men choking women, so...

Mmm. Having seen the film, I take no issue at all with the scene itself. I do, though, think that using that still void of context for publicity posters is problematic. There's plenty of shots of Apocalypse beating the crap out of guys in the film, but the moment they chose, the moment that they decided best represented the film and that they wanted to spread all over public places, is a man choking a woman.

[Athedia]

Mmm. Having seen the film, I take no issue at all with the scene itself. I do, though, think that using that still void of context for publicity posters is problematic. There's plenty of shots of Apocalypse beating the crap out of guys in the film, but the moment they chose, the moment that they decided best represented the film and that they wanted to spread all over public places, is a man choking a woman.

Well I think they were doing it because there would be complaints if all the posters had just guys in fight scenes. The way you put it, they really couldn't have won either way.

[Heliomance]

Well I think they were doing it because there would be complaints if all the posters had just guys in fight scenes. The way you put it, they really couldn't have won either way.

Oh, door they have other posters with the guys getting beaten up as well? If so, that puts a different complexion on it, and it's not nearly so problematic. I hadn't realised they did.

[Athedia]

I don't know. I live in the country. We don't get big important movie billboards. Just "Buy this local insurance" or "Use this mechanic" or "These are the best dentists"

[noparlpf]

Well I think they were doing it because there would be complaints if all the posters had just guys in fight scenes. The way you put it, they really couldn't have won either way.

Depends--are the guys hypothetically getting beaten up in a fashion disturbingly reminiscent of torture porn, or are they in a fight scene? I'd be much less skeeved out if Mystique were in a fighting pose and not just getting choked out. I don't want to spoil the rest of that scene,

Spoiler: so I won't,

Show

but come to think of it, Mystique doesn't do much in that fight. All she did with her own face was get choked and pass out. Showing a shot from three seconds earlier except redone with her in the middle of transforming back (so it was obviously her) would have made a much better poster.

[Grytorm]

Hmm. I haven't seen the film, but do other women play important roles, including in the fight scenes? If I remember Mystique's characterization she doesn't seem like a huge fighter, and ideally what that image would be doing is showing Apocalypse's disdain for human life by hurting a mostly nonviolent sympathetic figure. But I will people who saw the film figure out what it really shows.

Also, overall would you call Mystique a strong female character? She is somewhat dependent the intellectual male characters and uses seduction several times to influence people. However despite her somewhat sexualized appearance I don't think she is actually shown as being very interested in romance or the seduction. She is definitely very cunning and off the top of my head what I remember the most about her is when she chose to take initiative, either rescuing Magneto in the second(?) film and her actions attempted assassinations in X-Men Days of Future Past.

A lot of characters played important parts in the climax of that film. But she is the one who rescued the president, and the one who held the gun at the villain. Mystique is the one who got resolve the social side of the plot. And she chose to move the setting onto a lighter path.

[goto124]

A thing I've been wondering for a while...

Naked male characters are a thing and aren't considered sexualised, yet when a female character is naked she is considered sexualised. Sometimes I wonder if it's due to presentation, and/or because the male body features (large muscles, broad shoulders, flat chest, small hips) are considered not sexy, whike the female body features (lack of apparant muscles, breasts, large hips) are considered sexy.

[golentan]

Hmm. I haven't seen the film, but do other women play important roles, including in the fight scenes? If I remember Mystique's characterization she doesn't seem like a huge fighter, and ideally what that image would be doing is showing Apocalypse's disdain for human life by hurting a mostly nonviolent sympathetic figure. But I will people who saw the film figure out what it really shows.

Also, overall would you call Mystique a strong female character? She is somewhat dependent the intellectual male characters and uses seduction several times to influence people. However despite her somewhat sexualized appearance I don't think she is actually shown as being very interested in romance or the seduction. She is definitely very cunning and off the top of my head what I remember the most about her is when she chose to take initiative, either rescuing Magneto in the second(?) film and her actions attempted assassinations in X-Men Days of Future Past.

A lot of characters played important parts in the climax of that film. But she is the one who rescued the president, and the one who held the gun at the villain. Mystique is the one who got resolve the social side of the plot. And she chose to move the setting onto a lighter path.

I think most of what I've seen, Mystique is a capable combatant but (as suits her power set) is more of an ambush-predator type fighter than one of the "knock down a city" supercharacters. Like, she's decent with firearms and martial arts but if that's not enough to kill someone she needs to call in magneto or somebody with a similar level of reality-breaking to literally hit it with a truck.

[Coidzor]

Seems like a terrible shot from a composition/ad standpoint, and they should have known better than to think that there wouldn't be some level of stink, but it's so, well staid, that I can't view it as some kind of huge sin against women.

Ding some points, give a critique, but hardly on the same scale as something boycott-worthy.

It may be that I'm just underwhelmed because as soon as I saw someone mention mystique being choked, I was reminded of some of the more infamous and lurid comic book covers from our distant and recent past as well, though.

A thing I've been wondering for a while...

Naked male characters are a thing and aren't considered sexualised, yet when a female character is naked she is considered sexualised. Sometimes I wonder if it's due to presentation, and/or because the male body features (large muscles, broad shoulders, flat chest, small hips) are considered not sexy, whike the female body features (lack of apparant muscles, breasts, large hips) are considered sexy.

I'd say the breasts have more to do with it than not having any visible muscles if you're going to get into gender expectations.

Part of it is that a male form without a Johnson is practically the definition of neuter.

Whereas even Barbie has breasts, they're just free of nipples.

And it ties into things like how male is the default in western society. Other things too, of course.

[Themrys]

A thing I've been wondering for a while...

Naked male characters are a thing and aren't considered sexualised, yet when a female character is naked she is considered sexualised. Sometimes I wonder if it's due to presentation, and/or because the male body features (large muscles, broad shoulders, flat chest, small hips) are considered not sexy, whike the female body features (lack of apparant muscles, breasts, large hips) are considered sexy.

I cannot recall any mainstream media where there was female nudity that was not presented in a pornographic, titillating, male-gazey way. "Kirikou and the Sorceress" is the only film I can recall that had non-sexualized topless women, even. Granted, I don't watch much TV, so may have missed some thing or the other, but some superhero movie? I very much do not think they would DARE have non-pornified female nudity in it.

Though "lack of apparent muscles" is not a female thing, it's a pornification thing. I'm underweight and thin as a branch, and I still have visible muscles. The thin + no visible muscles combination you often get for women in comics is just not realistic. Women who have no visible muscles but are strong would have to have some body fat to cover the muscle.

Of course, there is also context. If you have seen thousands of movies where female nudity is used for cheap titillation and male gaze, then you may not have the patience to wait if it is different in this one.

You have a point in that male features are not considered sexy because the assumed default is the (heterosexual) male gaze. I consider small hips and broad shoulders sexy, but I'm just a woman, so not the target demographic.

[Icewraith]

I cannot recall any mainstream media where there was female nudity that was not presented in a pornographic, titillating, male-gazey way. "Kirikou and the Sorceress" is the only film I can recall that had non-sexualized topless women, even. Granted, I don't watch much TV, so may have missed some thing or the other, but some superhero movie? I very much do not think they would DARE have non-pornified female nudity in it.

Though "lack of apparent muscles" is not a female thing, it's a pornification thing. I'm underweight and thin as a branch, and I still have visible muscles. The thin + no visible muscles combination you often get for women in comics is just not realistic. Women who have no visible muscles but are strong would have to have some body fat to cover the muscle.

Of course, there is also context. If you have seen thousands of movies where female nudity is used for cheap titillation and male gaze, then you may not have the patience to wait if it is different in this one.

You have a point in that male features are not considered sexy because the assumed default is the (heterosexual) male gaze. I consider small hips and broad shoulders sexy, but I'm just a woman, so not the target demographic.

I'm not sure how you present nudity involving females that aren't extreme outliers on the low end of the attractiveness spectum in such a way that the stereotypical heterosexual male brain doesn't get the libido involved.

Additionally, playing to stereotypes, artists are generally a pretty horny bunch regardless of gender.

There's also a sense, possibly imposed by the current culture among males, that females are sexy in a way that males simply aren't or can't be. It's stronger than just "men are the default", it's even stronger than merely "objectifying" women. It's more like men placing the female form on a high pedestal inside the temple of sexiness, then losing the keys and accidentally locking themselves out. Whatever it is, however it happened, it is probably a powerful driving force among a good chunk of the cis male cross-dressing contingent.

Spoiler: Comic book art and drawing techniques, and how we get a lot of the stereotypical male and female body types in comics

Show

Specifically RE: comics, women aren't drawn with the extreme musculature you see on males, but they are still drawn with muscles. The perception of musculature on men is in large part due to heavy linework/hatching, women usually end up with muscles primarily defined by shape. The biceps/triceps will be curved, they just won't be heavily hatched. Deltoids will usually be prominent but again not heavily hatched. The pecs are mostly obscured by the breasts. Abs are usually impressive but they're defined by the contribution to the hourglass shape and again not the heavy detail that sometimes results in 12-pack toting men from less anatomically or numerically conscientious artists. Female legs (check out the calves) and butt are usually especially well defined because of their contribution to the overall shape.

Of course, I have also seen some cover art featuring women who are basically stick figures with docked zeppelins. Anyways, the shape of the muscle is usually there on superheroines, it's just not heavily detailed.

Part of the reason behind the art difference is that women simply don't develop the size (women can still get plenty strong) of muscles men do without serious steroids. Additionally, the "ideal" male figures are drawn from male bodybuilding- and bodybuilders (and modern boxers) do horrible things to their bodies pre-show to dehydrate themselves so their muscles stand out more (or so that they make weight). If you see a professional male bodybuilder in their everyday attire they'll still be huge, but a lot of the extreme muscle definition will be obscured because (aside from wearing normal clothes) their skin and fat cells are carrying the usual amount of water instead of barely enough to stay alive. So when an artist is looking for a strong-looking male reference, they often end up with a bodybulder and fill in every rib and lat and ab and tendon and all the little shadows from the bright stage lights. The female reference is maybe a cheerleader or model or actress, and will be carrying a normal amount of water and semi-normal amount of body fat and so the muscles will still be there, just not particularly well defined. Alternatively, the reference won't be carrying a normal amount of water due to an eating disorder or an extremely active workout regimen (Female athletes that have been training intensely will usually burn off their fat and water reserves, hence small breasts) but may have padded her bra or has breast implants (many cheerleaders).

[Ifni]

Have you seen the Hawkeye Initiative? Posing and context has a fair bit to do with whether naked / scantily clad => sexualized.

(Also, if you haven't seen this one, it's worth a look - parody of this Avengers poster.)

It's been said before, but there is a distinction between "sexualized female characters" and "straight guys and lesbians may find this hot"; I feel like "sexualization" usually means that the image/character evokes a sexual context, even when the nominal context is quite non-sexual.

(As an example, Game of Thrones has many portrayals of naked women, most of which are pretty darn sexualized, but there are a couple of scenes that I would consider exceptions - naked women who are not sexualized. Melisandre in the first episode of Season Six, Dany with her dragons in the final of Season One...)

[Xihirli]

Hmm. I haven't seen the film, but do other women play important roles, including in the fight scenes? If I remember Mystique's characterization she doesn't seem like a huge fighter, and ideally what that image would be doing is showing Apocalypse's disdain for human life by hurting a mostly nonviolent sympathetic figure. But I will people who saw the film figure out what it really shows.

Also, overall would you call Mystique a strong female character? She is somewhat dependent the intellectual male characters and uses seduction several times to influence people. However despite her somewhat sexualized appearance I don't think she is actually shown as being very interested in romance or the seduction. She is definitely very cunning and off the top of my head what I remember the most about her is when she chose to take initiative, either rescuing Magneto in the second(?) film and her actions attempted assassinations in X-Men Days of Future Past.

A lot of characters played important parts in the climax of that film. But she is the one who rescued the president, and the one who held the gun at the villain. Mystique is the one who got resolve the social side of the plot. And she chose to move the setting onto a lighter path.

Jean Gray actually killed Apocalypse-Guy, with the help of Magneta, Cyclops, and Storm.

[Lissou]

Spoiler: Spoiler for X-Men: Apocalypse

Show

Jean Gray actually killed Apocalypse-Guy, with the help of Magneta, Cyclops, and Storm.

Please put that in a spoiler! You can't go around revealing details about a movie like that. Tons of people haven't seen it yet!

EDIT: I'm actually happy this comment reached a new page. Maybe people will miss the spoiler this way.

[Lissou]

Sorry for the double post, but it's for some good news: Oregon (the state where I currently live) now recognizes "non-binary" as a legal/official gender. The first sex change to "non-binary" was granted.

[goto124]

The first sex change to "non-binary" was granted.

What does that consist of?

[Siosilvar]

What does that consist of?

Seems to be just legally recognized status backed by a court order, since most ID cards and such aren't set up to allow a third option. Still pretty neat.