Is pee or poop a body part?

[Ettina]

Scrying says that they have a penalty to the save if you have a body part of theirs. Would you count having a sample of their excrement for this purpose?

[Willie the Duck]

Hmm, I would rule no. Blood, however, I would probably count.

[nickl_2000]

The whole sections says

Body part, lock of hair, bit of nail, or the like

If a bit of nail or a lock of hair work, I would say yes (ewww, but yes)



Also, this is not a question I was expecting to be answering today.

[MaxWilson]

Scrying says that they have a penalty to the save if you have a body part of theirs. Would you count having a sample of their excrement for this purpose?

No, I wouldn't. I know people who think of their hair and nails as part of themselves, but I don't think I know anyone who thinks of their liquid or solid waste as part of themselves, so I'd rule there's no identity and therefore no magical link.

[Unoriginal]

Hair and nails grow from you, urine and feces are foreign objects which only got filtered by your body.

Or see it like that: if you swallow a grain of sand, and it goes through the whole digestive track, the grain of sand isn't a part of your body, right?

[Willie the Duck]

The whole sections says
Body part, lock of hair, bit of nail, or the like

Ah, thanks for the clarification. In that case, I would say that 'body part' refers to, you know, a part of the body -- finger, toe, hand, torso (that will be an interesting story). Lock of hair or bit of nail being something in addendum to body part, and 'or the like' being whatever else the DM chooses to think similar (blood, if I am the DM in question).

[jaappleton]

It is very far from any sort of official ruling....

But Scanlan Shorthalt, Gnome Bard, used poop as a method of scrying during Campaign 1 of Critical Role.

[Telwar]

Excretory elements are specifically expelled from the body. Since a large part of magic in D&D's history is symbolism, that would seem to actively work against them being body parts for purposes of scry. I've never heard of magicians in popular fiction being worried about someone grabbing their turds for spells against them, and so help me if someone does that now I'm going to scream.

Hair, skin, scales, are normally supposed to be part of the body, though can and do fall off. Same for blood. Get one of those, or hack off a convenient appendage if you want help scrying on them in the future. Or just kill them and then you'll know where they are for basically eternity.

[Demonslayer666]

No, it is not a body part, but neither are hair or fingernails that have been removed, and those do work. You just need "or the like".

From the spell description:
"Body part, lock of hair, bit of nail, or the like −10"

I would rule that it does work, but it would have to be recent, like a day or two. Older than that would be like a garment (-4).

[MaxWilson]

Or just kill them and then you'll know where they are for basically eternity.

Or would, if Wishing for Resurrection weren't so cheap for any 5e archmage. Evil DMs who want a Big Bad, just make it any 18th+ level wizard/bard/sorcerer/genie warlock who hates the party enough (because reasons) to go and gather up all of their dead nemeses from past adventures, Wish them all back to life, and Teleport 8 of them at a time on top of the party in the middle of the evening when the Paladin is taking off his armor to take a much-needed bath.

Have fun fighting an Orog, a Hill Giant, a Mind Flayer Arcanist, a Young Red Dragon, a Beholder, an Adult White Dragon, a Arachnomancer, and a Pit Fiend all at once, in the middle of the night when you have no Mage Armor or Foresight up and the Paladin's AC is 10.

(I've never actually done this, mostly because even though it's realistic, I can't figure out a way to make it seem both fun and fair. I'm evil but not evil enough to deliberately ruin the game without warning.--Hmmm, I just had an idea that might work....)

[Unoriginal]

Or would, if Wishing for Resurrection weren't so cheap for any 5e archmage. Evil DMs who want a Big Bad, just make it any 18th+ level wizard/bard/sorcerer/genie warlock who hates the party enough (because reasons) to go and gather up all of their dead nemeses from past adventures, Wish them all back to life, and Teleport 8 of them at a time on top of the party in the middle of the evening when the Paladin is taking off his armor to take a much-needed bath.

Have fun fighting an Orog, a Hill Giant, a Mind Flayer Arcanist, a Young Red Dragon, a Beholder, an Adult White Dragon, a Arachnomancer, and a Pit Fiend all at once, in the middle of the night when you have no Mage Armor or Foresight up and the Paladin's AC is 10.

(I've never actually done this, mostly because even though it's realistic, I can't figure out a way to make it seem both fun and fair. I'm evil but not evil enough to deliberately ruin the game without warning.--Hmmm, I just had an idea that might work....)

I mean a Legion of Doom is always fun, but I wouldn't be worried about the PCs, even in those conditions if the PCs could kill a Pit Fiend they'll probably be able to run away.

That's still an interesting premise, though, and the PCs would probably be pissed to have to abandon so much equipment.

Not sure why you're implying it's a 5e thing, though, a 3.PF wishing caster can probably do something even more powerful than that.

[KorvinStarmast]

But Scanlan Shorthalt, Gnome Bard, used poop as a method of scrying during Campaign 1 of Critical Role.

Exhibit J, your honor, on why not to try and play Critical Role at home. Leave that to Matt M and his merry crew.

Play your own game, or better yet, play D&D.

[jaappleton]

I have approach one of the 5E designers with this very question in an attempt to get an answer.

And I have received one.

https://twitter.com/Dan_Dillon_1/sta...917114881?s=20

[MaxWilson]

I have approach one of the 5E designers with this very question in an attempt to get an answer.

And I have received one.

https://twitter.com/Dan_Dillon_1/sta...917114881?s=20

Dan Dillon isn't a 5E designer AFAIK.

[jaappleton]

Dan Dillon isn't a 5E designer AFAIK.

As far as you know. Now you may consider yourself informed.

He's had writing credits on nearly all the UA leading up to Tasha's, he also worked on Frostmaiden, Tasha's, etc. He's been on the team a little over a year now.

[Unoriginal]

I have approach one of the 5E designers with this very question in an attempt to get an answer.

And I have received one.

https://twitter.com/Dan_Dillon_1/sta...917114881?s=20

Strictly speaking, he hasn't answered the question either. He only indicated that he didn't think excrements counted as body parts due to his "if it has DNA" ruling, but it doesn't cover the "or the like" part of the spell (neither nail nor cut hair countain DNA, for that matter).

[MaxWilson]

As far as you know. Now you may consider yourself informed.

He's had writing credits on nearly all the UA leading up to Tasha's, he also worked on Frostmaiden, Tasha's, etc. He's been on the team a little over a year now.

Ah, I see. For those who hadn't heard: https://koboldpress.com/congratulati...er-dan-dillon/

He's not one of the designers of 5E, but he's a game designer who now works for WotC on 5E products.

[KorvinStarmast]

Strictly speaking, he hasn't answered the question either. He only indicated that he didn't think excrements counted as body parts due to his "if it has DNA" ruling, but it doesn't cover the "or the like" part of the spell (neither nail nor cut hair countain DNA, for that matter).

I loved the reply in the tweet. Got me grinning.
Also: It's the DM's call is a correct answer.

[jaappleton]

Strictly speaking, he hasn't answered the question either. He only indicated that he didn't think excrements counted as body parts due to his "if it has DNA" ruling, but it doesn't cover the "or the like" part of the spell (neither nail nor cut hair countain DNA, for that matter).

Cut hair? No, it needs the folicle for DNA. But does the spell make mention of 'cut hair' or just 'hair'?

And fingernails do contain genomic DNA for the purposes of genetic studies.

And poop is quite rich in DNA, for whatever that's worth.

I'm going to leave this topic now, as the amount of things I've learned about poop has exceeded my monthly quota.

[KorvinStarmast]

And poop is quite rich in DNA, for whatever that's worth.

I'm going to leave this topic now, as the amount of things I've learned about poop has exceeded my monthly quota.

Yet another reason that when Momma taught us to clean up our mess, she meant all of our messes.

"Don't you leave that {s...} lying around. Clean it up!"

[Unoriginal]

Also: It's the DM's call is a correct answer.

It is indeed.

And in this spirit:

[Samayu]

Scrying says that they have a penalty to the save if you have a body part of theirs. Would you count having a sample of their excrement for this purpose?

Sounds like a possession to me. Something that was held very close to the body for some period of time.

[Rynjin]

No, it is not a body part, but neither are hair or fingernails that have been removed, and those do work. You just need "or the like".

By this logic if you chopped off someone's arm it would no longer be a "body part". They all were, at least at some point, a part of the body. Excrement and urine are not and never were part of the body, they are the processed remains of all sorts of things which are explicitly not your body (but may be something else's), any more than using a knife that was stuck in someone's body at some point as the component wouldn't work (not the blood on the knife, the knife itself).

[Grim Portent]

Poop contains shed material from the inside of your digestive tract, so I'd rule that the epithelial cells in the faeces are sufficient to count. Urine likewise contains epithelial cells shed from your urethra and bladder, and would count. Conceptionally I consider it similar to hair and nails.

From a practical perspective it's not usually going to be any easier to find somethings poop than it is to find a hairbrush or pick up a nail clipping from the floor though. Scrying on a wild animal or other creature that just poops on the floor wouldn't be hard this way, but most sapient creatures probably have a communal latrine, sewer system or dry their dung and burn it as fuel. In something like a communal pit you might be able to get a usable turd if you get in quickly enough that it hasn't... diffused into the general sludge, but it would rapidly lose cohesion and there's a strong risk of catching something when you start rummaging around in slurry with your hands trying to identify the right piece of poop.

[Magicspook]

By this logic if you chopped off someone's arm it would no longer be a "body part". They all were, at least at some point, a part of the body. Excrement and urine are not and never were part of the body, they are the processed remains of all sorts of things which are explicitly not your body (but may be something else's), any more than using a knife that was stuck in someone's body at some point as the component wouldn't work (not the blood on the knife, the knife itself).

Urine is actually filtered blood, so it used to be part of your blood stream. So your logic only applies to faeces.

[diplomancer]

hot take. There is no pee or poop in D&D. When was the last time your PC went to the bathroom?

[ff7hero]

hot take. There is no pee or poop in D&D. When was the last time your PC went to the bathroom?

This post has my support.

[Gtdead]

Well, I'm no forensic expert but I'm fairly sure that you can find dna in both of them. Problem is that if you go down that way, what is the implication for spells like Regenerate? Does it also restore your poop? The explosion would be phenomenal ^^

[KorvinStarmast]

hot take. There is no pee or poop in D&D. When was the last time your PC went to the bathroom?

Last night, as a matter of fact. (I was DMing)
The party's barbarian - once the troll that the party was fighting near the edge of a cliff had to scramble away from him down to a ledge, due to the bard's Dissonent Whispers, declared on his subsequent turn that he was peeing down on the troll.
(He didn't want to climb down and maybe get knocked off the cliff and fall 400' ... )

And sure enough, when his turn came up on initiative, that's what he did.

The whole table cracked up when the dragonborn sorcerer let loose with his next firebolt and barked at the barbarian "Make sure not to extinguish my flaming attacks, Pissboy!"

As you can tell, we take our D&D very seriously.

A couple of years ago, in my brother's world/him DMing, another of our players who had, of course, a barbarian, wandered into the foyer of a palace that we'd just entered. He non chalantly headed over to the potted plant, while my cleric and the wizard began to talk to the major domo, and peed in it.

Let's just say that the encounter didn't get off to a good start.

[nickl_2000]

hot take. There is no pee or poop in D&D. When was the last time your PC went to the bathroom?

The parties Gnomish Wizard frequently uses prestidigitation to make people smell like farts, does that count?