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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by DizzyWood View Post
    Fire it has the best spells since the DM ruled out anything from the Elemental Evil handbook. I have Scorching Ray, Mirror Image, Magic Missal, Sleep, Shield, Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost, Friends, & Prestidigitation. I try and stay back out of it but that can't always be the case.
    If there's no Elemental Evil, go with Fireball. It's a fantastic AoE.

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    *cracks whip*

    These spells won't review themselves!

    *whip crack*

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    If there's no Elemental Evil, go with Fireball. It's a fantastic AoE.
    Can do! Thank you so much!!!

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    eyebite: has the same "do something better than a cantrip while casting a quickened spell in the same round" ability as sunbeam. probably not quite as good (sunbeam deals a very good damage type and blinds enemies in a line, meaning it is AOE, for respectable damage, which is pretty danged awesome; some of the most dangerous monsters - especially spellcasting ones - get completely wrecked if they are blinded because so many spells target "creatures you can see"). but still, if you're looking for crowd control, it's pretty good on a sorcerer.

    investiture of wind: doesn't it also let you fly? the combination of flight and people taking disadvantage on ranged attacks against you can be quite powerful.

    true seeing: iirc isn't this no-concentration? seeing invisible creatures, seeing through illusions and shapechange spells, *seeing through magical darkness*, personally I consider this one to be black. if sorcerers weren't so short on spells known, I'd even suggest it should be blue, but while it is absolutely worth taking for a wizard, it's hard to justify spending one of your limited spell slots on this unless you know the campaign features a lot of invisible enemies or other such things.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    eyebite: has the same "do something better than a cantrip while casting a quickened spell in the same round" ability as sunbeam. probably not quite as good (sunbeam deals a very good damage type and blinds enemies in a line, meaning it is AOE, for respectable damage, which is pretty danged awesome; some of the most dangerous monsters - especially spellcasting ones - get completely wrecked if they are blinded because so many spells target "creatures you can see"). but still, if you're looking for crowd control, it's pretty good on a sorcerer.
    I think we're in agreement that Eyebite isn't quite as good as Sunbeam?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    investiture of wind: doesn't it also let you fly? the combination of flight and people taking disadvantage on ranged attacks against you can be quite powerful.
    You know, I think I am going to bump this up because in flight the only attacks you'll have to worry about are ranged attacks. Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    true seeing: iirc isn't this no-concentration? seeing invisible creatures, seeing through illusions and shapechange spells, *seeing through magical darkness*, personally I consider this one to be black. if sorcerers weren't so short on spells known, I'd even suggest it should be blue, but while it is absolutely worth taking for a wizard, it's hard to justify spending one of your limited spell slots on this unless you know the campaign features a lot of invisible enemies or other such things.
    Yeah, I think I was a bit hard on it because of the dearth of spells known for sorcerers. I'll bump it up as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    *cracks whip*

    These spells won't review themselves!

    *whip crack*
    Third levels are done! Now, I just need to clean enough of the house to not get murdered when the fiance comes home tonight.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    I think we're in agreement that Eyebite isn't quite as good as Sunbeam?
    depends on what saves and what debuffs you need. ideally, you'd have both (obviously that isn't always practical though).

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Time Stop: If you can't think of a way to abuse this, you should go back to Call of Duty.
    Every time I think of something to do with 1d4+1 turns for the price of one, I run straight into the limitations of the spell: ends when you affect a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by a creature other than you, or if you move more than 1000 feet.

    1.) Oh, you could heal yourself! But, sorcerers and wizards can't self-heal.
    2.) Oh, you could buff yourself! But most buffs take concentration, so you might as well just cast them directly.

    The only ways I can think of two abuse it are:

    1.) Use out of combat, to sneak past guards and steal the McGuffin while time is stopped. (How many McGuffins are protected by something as simple as guards?) Very situational.

    2.) In combat, use a Sequence: Time Stop, Delayed Blast Fireball, Dimension Door, Mirror Image, Blink, (Quickened?) Animate Objects VIII. From the perspective of an outside observer, I cast one spell and suddenly I'm 650' away from where I started, a 16d6 DB Fireball goes off, I have three illusionary duplicates and maybe (50%) just went Ethereal, and 16 salad forks are suddenly flying around stabbing everyone in my new location. Oh, and I maybe hit you with a Twinned Booming Blade too because why not.

    That's actually kind of impressive, but I just blew my 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell slots and a 2nd and 3rd slot slot (and maybe three sorcery points if I did the Booming Blade thing) plus six of my 15 spells known. Is it really all that much better than Quickened Animate Objects VIII? Moreover, is enabling that sequence really deserving of a sky-blue rating for a 9th level spell?
    I am on GITP to discuss things I find interesting about 5E. If I am responding to your post, it's because I find it interesting, even if I disagree with it. I don't mean to be aggressive, and I apologize if I come across as such. Please don't take it personally.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    1.) Use out of combat, to sneak past guards and steal the McGuffin while time is stopped. (How many McGuffins are protected by something as simple as guards?) Very situational.
    There are a ton of situational uses. Steal the MacGuffin, sure, but you can also escape traps, elude pursuit, purloin to your heart's content, and commit any other act that can be facilitated by others' not noticing. That's a tremendous amount of utility.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    That's actually kind of impressive, but I just blew my 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell slots and a 2nd and 3rd slot slot (and maybe three sorcery points if I did the Booming Blade thing) plus six of my 15 spells known. Is it really all that much better than Quickened Animate Objects VIII? Moreover, is enabling that sequence really deserving of a sky-blue rating for a 9th level spell?
    It doesn't just enable that sequence, though. It enables any sequence you can think of. You can cast Delayed Blast Fireball, animate all anchor points in an area, and Reverse Gravity so that your enemy has to float up to the ceiling, where the Fireball is waiting to detonate, forcing them to take both its damage, the damage of the fall, and the damage of the household items that are now swarming them as they gracelessly tumble skywards. Hell, you could place explosives around the supports of a structure and collapse it on the BBEG.

    This is a Reading Rainbow spell: it's as limitless as your imagination.

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    There are a ton of situational uses. Steal the MacGuffin, sure, but you can also escape traps, elude pursuit, purloin to your heart's content, and commit any other act that can be facilitated by others' not noticing. That's a tremendous amount of utility.
    Sure, and if it were a 4th level spell it would be great, about on par with Greater Invisibility.

    It doesn't just enable that sequence, though. It enables any sequence you can think of. You can cast Delayed Blast Fireball, animate all anchor points in an area, and Reverse Gravity so that your enemy has to float up to the ceiling, where the Fireball is waiting to detonate, forcing them to take both its damage, the damage of the fall, and the damage of the household items that are now swarming them as they gracelessly tumble skywards.
    That sequence is illegal. It ends when you cast Animate Objects, so all you really get out of Time Stop is the equivalent of Action Surge: Delayed Blast Fireball + Animate Objects. And Delayed Blast Fireball is the only offensive spell that works with AFAIK. Grease would work, sort of, except it's not on the sorcerer list.
    I am on GITP to discuss things I find interesting about 5E. If I am responding to your post, it's because I find it interesting, even if I disagree with it. I don't mean to be aggressive, and I apologize if I come across as such. Please don't take it personally.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Sure, and if it were a 4th level spell it would be great, about on par with Greater Invisibility.
    It's an auto-success, compared to Greater Invisibility, but point taken.


    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    That sequence is illegal. It ends when you cast Animate Objects, so all you really get out of Time Stop is the equivalent of Action Surge: Delayed Blast Fireball + Animate Objects. And Delayed Blast Fireball is the only offensive spell that works with AFAIK. Grease would work, sort of, except it's not on the sorcerer list.
    It's a bit debatable whether or not Animate Objects would end it. They're only objects when you cast the spell, after all.

    Still, there are plenty of other options. Use DBF, Wall of Stone to keep people from moving away, Wall of Fire to hedge in anyone you can't catch with Wall of Stone, buff yourself, and finish it off with whatever damaging spell you wish. You get to exercise a ton of crowd control and pile on a ton of damage while the enemy does nothing. It's a great spell.

    And yes, Delayed Blast Fireball is the best combo for this spell.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    EvilAnagram,

    First, I want to say, thank you for this guide. I'm discussing Time Stop not because I want to attack you, and not even actually because I want to correct you--my motivation is that I'm desperately hoping you can think of a way to use it more effectively than I can, because AFAICT it looks underpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    It's an auto-success, compared to Greater Invisibility, but point taken.
    Dimension Door is an auto-success too. I think we basically agree on this point though--if you know it, it could be a lot of fun, especially for a sorc with limited spells known who doesn't have Dimension Door/Teleport/Ethereal/etc. as options. Especially a Subtle Time Stop, which nobody would realize you had cast. :)

    Counterpoint: if you know Time Stop, you also know Wish and therefore could Dimension Door/Teleport/Ethereal instead, so burning a spells-known on Time Stop for out-of-combat uses actually hurts your versatility. So out-of-combat uses cannot justify turning it sky-blue unless you are a sorcerer who has already permanently burned out Wish.

    Returning to combat usages:

    It's a bit debatable whether or not Animate Objects would end it. They're only objects when you cast the spell, after all.
    Okay, I'm willing to grant that there might be DMs who let you cast Animate Objects and still stay within Time Stop, and if so it gets better. But the combination you suggested is still illegal--you can't concentrate on Delayed Blast Fireball and Animate Objects simultaneously, so your Fireball goes off, ending Time Stop. And you can't concentrate on Animate Objects and Reverse Gravity simultaneously either. You run into the exact same problem when trying to combine Wall of Stone and Wall of Fire and Delayed Blast Fireball.

    The fundamental problem for Time Stop in 5E is that the spell is designed to boost your action economy, but concentration is likely to be the bottleneck. At best you can cast one concentration spell (usually a self-buff, but if your DM lets you cast Animate Objects then that works too--maybe he'll even let you tell the objects to read an action to "attack when anyone but me starts moving") and launch a no-concentration attack spell like Chain Lightning, so you get two spells via Time Stop where anyone else would get only one. Except that you're essentially spending your 9th level slot to Action Surge Chain Lightning and Animate Objects, whereas a Fighter 2/Wizard 18 is spending his 9th level slot to Action Surge Meteor Swarm and Animate Objects. And he can do it once per short rest, not once a day.

    It could be true that 2nd level fighters get a 1/short rest ability which is as good as a sky-blue 9th level spell... but it could also be true that the 9th level spell in question doesn't deserve to be sky-blue given 5E's concentration rules.

    Is there an awesome combo I'm overlooking which gets you something better than an Action Surge? (Aside from the Animate Objects-ready-an-attack thing, which probably wouldn't fly with most DMs because it requires multiple creatures acting outside the normal timestream instead of just the caster.)

    Edit: so far the best combo I've got for a Sorlock 20 is Twinned Booming Blade + Quickened Timestop: (Delayed Blast Fireball (16d6), Armor of Agathys VI, Blink, Mirror Image, Animate Objects VIII + Quickened Greenflame Blade). 16d6 AoE (56), 16d8+mods (72+mods, probably about 82) distributed between two targets, a defensive boost to cut your damage taken by about 80% over the next few rounds and inflict 30 HP of cold damage on anyone who hits you, and 16d4+64 (104) in minion damage per turn hereafter. That is a grand total of 196 damage to two targets, plus 56 to everyone else in the DBFB blast radius and whatever your salad forks manage to inflict after this turn. Is that competitive with Action Surge: Meteor Swarm (140) + Animate Objects VIII (104 DPR)? I'm still on the fence about that but it's clearly an improvement, probably competitive, possibly better (but way more expensive too).

    At any rate, that sequence is good enough to make me think it would be fun to unleash. Meteors from space is one thing, but "BBEG speaks a word and boom! suddenly you are being stabbed, frozen, exploded, and set on fire" is kind of a fun idea.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2015-11-11 at 07:19 PM.
    I am on GITP to discuss things I find interesting about 5E. If I am responding to your post, it's because I find it interesting, even if I disagree with it. I don't mean to be aggressive, and I apologize if I come across as such. Please don't take it personally.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    if sorcerers were not arbitrarily restricted from having wall of force on their spell list, you could drop a bunch of mordenkainen's hounds in an area, block it off with a wall of force, and when regular time resumes the hounds are essentially indestructible damage-dealing machines that last for hours on end.

    i suppose you could do something similar with wall of stone, but wall of stone is not completely indestructible. on the plus side, i suppose it blocks LOS. on the minus side, the fact that it gives creatures a saving throw suggests it is not compatible with time stop's "no interaction" rule.

    in any event, there are a small handful of no-concentration-required tricks you can potentially pull off with time stop. i'm not sure they'd be enough for me to ever rate time stop as high as wish or even meteor swarm, personally, but they do exist.

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    if sorcerers were not arbitrarily restricted from having wall of force on their spell list, you could drop a bunch of mordenkainen's hounds in an area, block it off with a wall of force, and when regular time resumes the hounds are essentially indestructible damage-dealing machines that last for hours on end.

    i suppose you could do something similar with wall of stone, but wall of stone is not completely indestructible. on the plus side, i suppose it blocks LOS. on the minus side, the fact that it gives creatures a saving throw suggests it is not compatible with time stop's "no interaction" rule.

    in any event, there are a small handful of no-concentration-required tricks you can potentially pull off with time stop. i'm not sure they'd be enough for me to ever rate time stop as high as wish or even meteor swarm, personally, but they do exist.
    Yeah, the sorcerer spell list is quite narrow--Forcecage, Wall of Force, and Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound are not on it.

    Timestop + Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound x4 is interesting, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be possible, since the hound will immediately bite a hostile creature at the start of your second turn, ending the Time Stop before you can cast another--it's ambiguous what happens to the rest of your turn when the spell ends before your turn ends, but I'd rule that you get to finish the turn, so at least you get two hounds for your 9th level spell, or a hound and a Wall of Force. An enemy without teleportation or Dispel Magic is toast, probably, although there are a few things that could probably survive 100 rounds of attacks and outlast the Wall of Force.

    Do you know of any good no-concentration Time Stop combos that are on the sorc's spell list?
    I am on GITP to discuss things I find interesting about 5E. If I am responding to your post, it's because I find it interesting, even if I disagree with it. I don't mean to be aggressive, and I apologize if I come across as such. Please don't take it personally.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    EvilAnagram,

    First, I want to say, thank you for this guide. I'm discussing Time Stop not because I want to attack you, and not even zee because I want to correct you--my motivation is that I'm desperately hoping you can think of a way to use it more effectively than I can, because AFAICT it looks underpowered.
    You seem worried, so I want you to know that I have not taken anything you've said personally, nor have I intended anything I've said to be a personal attack against you.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Counterpoint: if you know Time Stop, you also know Wish and therefore could Dimension Door/Teleport/Ethereal instead, so burning a spells-known on Time Stop for out-of-combat uses actually hurts your versatility. So out-of-combat uses cannot justify turning it sky-blue unless you are a sorcerer who has already permanently burned out Wish.
    I'm not comparing any spells to Wish. Wish is ridiculously broken. It deserves its own classification.


    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Okay, I'm willing to grant that there might be DMs who let you cast Animate Objects and still stay within Time Stop, and if so it gets better. But the combination you suggested is still illegal--you can't concentrate on Delayed Blast Fireball and Animate Objects simultaneously, so your Fireball goes off, ending Time Stop. And you can't concentrate on Animate Objects and Reverse Gravity simultaneously either. You run into the exact same problem when trying to combine Wall of Stone and Wall of Fire and Delayed Blast Fireball.
    Fair enough. I was mostly brainstorming there, but you make a good point about concentration.

    It does limit a good deal of what you can do, though the sequences you've come up with are pretty sweet examples of what can be done. I've carefully examined the list, and I think you've done a fair job proving that the spell has weaknesses, though it's still potentially quite powerful.

    Another good use I've found is Twinned Disintegrate on load-bearing columns followed by a teleportation to get everyone out of there. Of course, having to be clever with terrain does not speak to the raw power of the spell.
    Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2015-11-12 at 06:48 AM.

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Yeah, the sorcerer spell list is quite narrow--Forcecage, Wall of Force, and Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound are not on it.

    Timestop + Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound x4 is interesting, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be possible, since the hound will immediately bite a hostile creature at the start of your second turn, ending the Time Stop before you can cast another--it's ambiguous what happens to the rest of your turn when the spell ends before your turn ends, but I'd rule that you get to finish the turn, so at least you get two hounds for your 9th level spell, or a hound and a Wall of Force. An enemy without teleportation or Dispel Magic is toast, probably, although there are a few things that could probably survive 100 rounds of attacks and outlast the Wall of Force.

    Do you know of any good no-concentration Time Stop combos that are on the sorc's spell list?
    in a time stop, you are removed from the flow of time. nothing indicates that spells you cast are removed in the same way, particularly if they are summoning spells that create creatures (you could therefore animate objects, so long as those objects are not in someone else's possession at the time).

    in any event, you can always choose to have the wall of force intersect in such a way as to push the target into the hounds' reach.

    back on topic a bit though, i can't really think of any particularly amazing combo using only the sorcerer spell list. one of my biggest disappointments with 5e is that instead of making both the 4e striker sorcerer and the 3.x sorcerer options, they mostly aimed for 4e striker with just enough of a hint of 3.x sorcerer to make me disappointed every time i try to make it work. as a result, they don't generally have the spell list to use these combos.

    time stop has really become a lot less useful in 5e.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    I think you've underrated Subtle Spell. It's not just when you've been tied up by the DM; it's also for any situation where casting a spell that no one knows where it came from is useful - or that a spell has been cast at all.

    Want to impress the locals? Dancing Lights appear to give you a halo effect.
    Want to win a court case? Major Image and the villain confesses in front of everyone while tied up back in your room at the inn.

    It's ... subtle. It lets you claim the gods are smiting your foes, that your former appearance was the illusion and the illusion you just cast is the real you, you can start a battle with a twinned Ice Storm that no one sees coming because you didn't move or speak to cast it.

    Et cetera, et cetera.
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I think you've underrated Subtle Spell. It's not just when you've been tied up by the DM; it's also for any situation where casting a spell that no one knows where it came from is useful - or that a spell has been cast at all.

    Want to impress the locals? Dancing Lights appear to give you a halo effect.
    Want to win a court case? Major Image and the villain confesses in front of everyone while tied up back in your room at the inn.

    It's ... subtle. It lets you claim the gods are smiting your foes, that your former appearance was the illusion and the illusion you just cast is the real you, you can start a battle with a twinned Ice Storm that no one sees coming because you didn't move or speak to cast it.

    Et cetera, et cetera.
    it's also highly situational. you could base a character around it, but it isn't really the norm. it's a great, useful ability, and is worth picking up... provided you're doing so as a multiclass dip or if it isn't your first choice. useful in the right situation is purple. consistently pretty good but not great is black. consistently good is dark blue. sky blue is basically "you better have a danged good reason for not taking this".

    i like subtle spell. it's a very useful option to have. but it is still quite situational, and has placed it pretty much where it belongs.

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I think you've underrated Subtle Spell. It's not just when you've been tied up by the DM; it's also for any situation where casting a spell that no one knows where it came from is useful - or that a spell has been cast at all.

    Want to impress the locals? Dancing Lights appear to give you a halo effect.
    Want to win a court case? Major Image and the villain confesses in front of everyone while tied up back in your room at the inn.

    It's ... subtle. It lets you claim the gods are smiting your foes, that your former appearance was the illusion and the illusion you just cast is the real you, you can start a battle with a twinned Ice Storm that no one sees coming because you didn't move or speak to cast it.

    Et cetera, et cetera.
    To add to what Shark said, the problem isn't that I've rated Subtle Spell as situational, it's that people perceive situational to mean bad. Situational is not bad. Situational can easily get you out of a bind. Situational can be great! But if the situations that make it shine don't show up, it won't be useful. Consistency, not usefulness, keeps Subtle Spell as a Purple ability.

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    I would downgrade fly from light blue to dark blue. It requires concentration which makes it less attractive. And it carries a considerable risk - if your concentration is suddenly broken you may fall from a considerable height! That is in contrast to the 3E version where there was no concentration requirement and you floated down when the spell ended. Dragons and Favored Souls can eventually fly on their own. That said, it is still a strong utility spell and a fun one to boot.

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    You had me at the fire nymph.

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Looking good, definitely will come back to finish reading when it's finished.
    Reality is relative, and there is an exception to every rule.

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogre Mage View Post
    I would downgrade fly from light blue to dark blue. It requires concentration which makes it less attractive. And it carries a considerable risk - if your concentration is suddenly broken you may fall from a considerable height! That is in contrast to the 3E version where there was no concentration requirement and you floated down when the spell ended. Dragons and Favored Souls can eventually fly on their own. That said, it is still a strong utility spell and a fun one to boot.
    All that is true, but when you cast it at higher level you allow allies to fly along with you. Now that opens up endless possibilities to the party. How many other spells can do that?

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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Whoo! All spells done except for the first two spell levels!

    The largest two spell levels...

    Poop.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    mold earth might actually be amazing depending on how your DM defines loose earth.

    if it means only a pile of dirt that you just dug up, then yeah, it isn't great unless maybe you're in a freshly plowed field or something.

    if it means sand and you're in a desert campaign, little bit better.

    if it means anything that isn't rock, it is amazing.

    mage hand i think is not bad so long as you remember it's a cantrip. it shouldn't be expected to do incredible things. being useful fairly often is good enough, and being able to grab the maguffin from range when you expect it to be a trap, or grabbing things through a barred window, or pulling things out of hazardous materials, or lowering containers *in* to hazardous materials, or silently "throwing" a length of rope somewhere, and so on. situations where it is helpful come up fairly often, and sorcerers have such a limited spell selection that any spell that can be used in multiple ways starts to look pretty good.

    one thing i would suggest is that you go through and note which spells combine well with which metamagic rather than mentioning only twin. who knows, you might start to realize why i think careful is worth taking as one of your first two choices :)

    (just a short list of some great spells to make careful: web, fear, hypnotic pattern, sleet storm, stinking cloud, confusion; some don't always need to be careful, but there's a big difference between being able to cast these spells even if your melee are right in the thick of things)

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    mold earth might actually be amazing depending on how your DM defines loose earth.

    if it means only a pile of dirt that you just dug up, then yeah, it isn't great unless maybe you're in a freshly plowed field or something.

    if it means sand and you're in a desert campaign, little bit better.

    if it means anything that isn't rock, it is amazing.
    It includes dirt, gravel, and loose stones.

    It's still slightly more effective than a shovel.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    mage hand i think is not bad so long as you remember it's a cantrip. it shouldn't be expected to do incredible things. being useful fairly often is good enough, and being able to grab the maguffin from range when you expect it to be a trap, or grabbing things through a barred window, or pulling things out of hazardous materials, or lowering containers *in* to hazardous materials, or silently "throwing" a length of rope somewhere, and so on. situations where it is helpful come up fairly often, and sorcerers have such a limited spell selection that any spell that can be used in multiple ways starts to look pretty good.
    Mage Hand isn't bad. It's situational. Situational does not mean bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    one thing i would suggest is that you go through and note which spells combine well with which metamagic rather than mentioning only twin. who knows, you might start to realize why i think careful is worth taking as one of your first two choices :)
    I only mention Twin because it's not available for use with each spell, and it directly affects the power level and viability of spells. Careful is a perfectly good option, but it doesn't affect the viability of your spell choices.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    mold earth does a 5' cube in a couple of seconds. what kind of shovel are you using where that's a small improvement?

    any time you have a few minutes available to set up a battlefield, mold earth lets you do a massive amount of work. need to build some fortifications quickly? empty a 5'cube and place the earth right next to it and you have a trench and a short wall. it's usefulness in the middle of a pitched battle is relatively limited. it's usefulness in preparing for a pitched battle is massive.

    mage hand is useful in a lot of situations that come up fairly often. every spell is "situational", purple is for ones where the situation is rare. "i need to move something and either am unable or unwilling to use my hand to do it" is not very uncommon for an adventurer, nor is "i would like to move something from a distance". we're talking about a game where a 10' pole is considered vital adventuring gear to some people.

    as to careful not impacting the value of spells, i have to disagree. if your party has melee warriors (and most parties do), there is a gigantic difference between creating a zone that nobody should go into vs creating a zone that no enemy should go into. there is likewise a substantial difference between debilitating status effects that only hit enemies vs debilitating status effects that hit anyone.

    it's the difference between darkness in a regular party (maybe one person can see through magical darkness some way or another) vs darkness in a party where everyone has a 2 warlock splash and devi's sight. the former isn't useless by any means, but the latter is so much better it isn't even a close comparison. in such a party, darkness goes from being roughly equivalent to a purple spell to being at least dark blue, probably even sky blue (seriously, if you turn down that buff you must have a very compelling reason).

    some spells just get a heck of a lot better with the right metamagic, to a point where it isn't even comparable in value. suggestion goes from being something you can only use in private areas when the subject has no guards, to being a spell you can use any time you're dealing with a person who has something you want and doesn't want to give it up (provided they're not immune to suggestion somehow) if you have subtle spell. huge difference.

    your metamagic selections *absolutely* should have a major impact on your spell selections. pretty much the only reason not to take any other spellcaster is because you want to combine specific metamagic abilities with specific spells. outside of metamagic, the sorcerer has *nothing* worth looking at. no interesting class features. even their archetypes tend to be pretty lackluster (storm sorcerer has a danged nice ability at 18, but it isn't worth 18 levels of being a much worse version of a wizard, which is basicalyl what you are if you aren't using your metamagic wisely).

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Careful is a perfectly good option, but it doesn't affect the viability of your spell choices.
    I quite agree with this. Twin is the sort of metamagic you choose your spells around, while I doubt there's anyone who has gone "Oh, I wasn't going to pick Fireball but now that my allies all automatically only take half damage I'm definitely going to choose it." It might be worth mentioning on unexpected stuff where the combo is exceptionally strong like Web or Stinking Cloud, but I don't think that every area spell in the guide needs to mention that you can make your allies auto-succeed on their saving throw and I don't think any spell should get a bonus to its rating based on how it combines with metamagic. That at most improves a spell from red to purple.
    Last edited by Flashy; 2015-11-13 at 10:25 PM.
    My homebrew: A list of 5e homebrew magitech augments found here, a homebrew race of devil-toads here, and the Professional, an all mundane support class. Criticism is much appreciated!

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Finished with the spells!

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    mold earth does a 5' cube in a couple of seconds. what kind of shovel are you using where that's a small improvement?

    any time you have a few minutes available to set up a battlefield, mold earth lets you do a massive amount of work. need to build some fortifications quickly? empty a 5'cube and place the earth right next to it and you have a trench and a short wall. it's usefulness in the middle of a pitched battle is relatively limited. it's usefulness in preparing for a pitched battle is massive.
    Right, but if you have time to prepare a pitched battle, you have time to prepare one with a shovel and use your cantrip slot for something that's better than occasionally preparing for a pitched battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    mage hand is useful in a lot of situations that come up fairly often. every spell is "situational", purple is for ones where the situation is rare. "i need to move something and either am unable or unwilling to use my hand to do it" is not very uncommon for an adventurer, nor is "i would like to move something from a distance". we're talking about a game where a 10' pole is considered vital adventuring gear to some people.
    Mage Hand is situational because its ability to affect the world around you in any meaningful way is incredibly limited. Your ability to pick up something from a short distance away will have very little effect on anything that happens in the game. There are certainly going to be situations in which it will be important to the way a game continues, but those are few and far between.

    This isn't to say it's a bad choice. I've picked it before. It's just not one that does much to affect the optimization of your character.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    as to careful not impacting the value of spells, i have to disagree. if your party has melee warriors (and most parties do), there is a gigantic difference between creating a zone that nobody should go into vs creating a zone that no enemy should go into. there is likewise a substantial difference between debilitating status effects that only hit enemies vs debilitating status effects that hit anyone.
    With the exception of Web, I can't think of a single spell that Careful would significantly alter, and I don't think that Web is so altered as to move it from Blue. It's worth a mention, I suppose, but it's just as decent.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    some spells just get a heck of a lot better with the right metamagic, to a point where it isn't even comparable in value. suggestion goes from being something you can only use in private areas when the subject has no guards, to being a spell you can use any time you're dealing with a person who has something you want and doesn't want to give it up (provided they're not immune to suggestion somehow) if you have subtle spell. huge difference.
    I mean, I assumed the vocal component of Suggestion was the suggestion, itself. You can hold a snake tongue in one hand and suggest something to someone without raising much suspicion.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    your metamagic selections *absolutely* should have a major impact on your spell selections.
    I agree, and if you can think of specific examples in which a metamagic significantly alters the spell's usefulness, I would be happy to include it. I think I'll include Careful with Web, anyways.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    some spells just get a heck of a lot better with the right metamagic, to a point where it isn't even comparable in value. suggestion goes from being something you can only use in private areas when the subject has no guards, to being a spell you can use any time you're dealing with a person who has something you want and doesn't want to give it up (provided they're not immune to suggestion somehow) if you have subtle spell. huge difference.

    your metamagic selections *absolutely* should have a major impact on your spell selections. pretty much the only reason not to take any other spellcaster is because you want to combine specific metamagic abilities with specific spells.
    I agree with this.

    I think it would be very helpful if we could have a list of the most useful spells per metamagic option. That way, someone who would like to play a sorcerer, could see several potential combinations of metamagic and spells when viewing this guide, so he could get some ideas and make an informed decision as to what metamagic he would choose for his sorcerer.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    I agree with this.

    I think it would be very helpful if we could have a list of the most useful spells per metamagic option. That way, someone who would like to play a sorcerer, could see several potential combinations of metamagic and spells when viewing this guide, so he could get some ideas and make an informed decision as to what metamagic he would choose for his sorcerer.
    I can dedicate a section to strategies for applying metamagic to spells and choosing your spells based on your metamagic choices. I don't think that I will review all the spells all over again. I've already dedicated several hours to that over the past few days.

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