How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

[EvilAnagram]

The guide is updated with everything from Xanathar's but the racial feats. Tl;dr, everything deals psychic or radiant.

[SharkForce]

looks good, though one little thing; you haven't got any comments about enemies abound ;)

(you should also check if it's the right rating, since black is default, but i don't know enough about the spell to conclusively say how it should be rated so maybe that is accurate... i've heard good things, but it could be that someone was reading the spell description wrong when they explained what it does).

[EvilAnagram]

looks good, though one little thing; you haven't got any comments about enemies abound ;)

(you should also check if it's the right rating, since black is default, but i don't know enough about the spell to conclusively say how it should be rated so maybe that is accurate... i've heard good things, but it could be that someone was reading the spell description wrong when they explained what it does).

Good catch!

[Raif]

Just wanted to weigh in with some experience with Sickening Radiance:

Played Against the Giants (Tales of the Yawning Portal) last night as a one shot at level 11. Here's how epic that spell can be in the right usage:

Spoiler: Against the Giants Spoilers

Show

So in this adventure there's a fortress right at the start filled with a ton of giants of a varying kind (by a ton I mean 20+ in one room). Normally you're supposed to wait and watch the meeting in secret and get info, but it was a one shot so we went at it anyway. Funneled the giants into a corridor so that only 1 at a time could come through, or at most 2 or 3 but they would have to wade through Sickening Radiance. Wiped 20+ giants due to it as they just had to chill in the cloud since there was nowhere for them to go. Eventually they fail a save, especially with Heightened metamagic, and it's downhill from there. Throw in Synaptic Static and it becomes worse. Spell is borderline broken in the right circumstances, but then again a DM can use it against you too so beware.

[SharkForce]

heighten works on one enemy for one save. there isn't much "eventually" with heighten, it either works or it doesn't, and then the spell is exactly the same as it would've been in the first place. the eventually came from the combination of the giants being trapped in with the radiance for the full duration :P

[Raif]

heighten works on one enemy for one save. there isn't much "eventually" with heighten, it either works or it doesn't, and then the spell is exactly the same as it would've been in the first place. the eventually came from the combination of the giants being trapped in with the radiance for the full duration :P

Good to know! I didn't have Heightened at that game anyway, but I will in my real game. So in a clarification question, when you cast an AoE spell like this with Heighten (something like Fireball or Sickening Radiance) and catch 5 targets:

1. Does only 1 target make the save at disadvantage or do all of them make it at disadvantage?
2. If it's a persistent AoE (like Sickening Radiance, Wall of Fire, Reverse Gravity, etc.) does it affect a target on their first turn of being affected? Or only the targets hit by that spell on the moment of casting? For example, I cast Reverse Gravity and catch 5 monsters and another monster walks into the Reverse Gravity field, does it now make it at disadvantage? Or only the initial 5?

[SharkForce]

Good to know! I didn't have Heightened at that game anyway, but I will in my real game. So in a clarification question, when you cast an AoE spell like this with Heighten (something like Fireball or Sickening Radiance) and catch 5 targets:

1. Does only 1 target make the save at disadvantage or do all of them make it at disadvantage?
2. If it's a persistent AoE (like Sickening Radiance, Wall of Fire, Reverse Gravity, etc.) does it affect a target on their first turn of being affected? Or only the targets hit by that spell on the moment of casting? For example, I cast Reverse Gravity and catch 5 monsters and another monster walks into the Reverse Gravity field, does it now make it at disadvantage? Or only the initial 5?

well, some of that depends on what your DM considers to be a target of the spell. for example, do they consider someone who is not currently in the AoE but *could* walk into the AoE to be a target?

in any event, with heighten, when you cast the spell one of the spell's targets (as noted above, this can be a bit unclear, but by default anything that is going to make a save at the moment you cast it should be fine imo) makes their first (and only their first, it can't be saved for later) save against the spell is made at disadvantage. strictly speaking, the ability doesn't let you choose your target, but i don't think i've ever heard of a DM that doesn't assume that as part of the intent. still, given enough DMs exist, i'm sure there's one out there somewhere that will rule that way. hopefully not yours.

it only works on one target, so no matter how many you catch in the AoE, only one of them makes their save at disadvantage (unless other factors are in play, such as exhaustion or a shadow hound).

as to whether that one could be the one that walks into the reverse gravity field after the fact, that goes right back to what your DM considers to be a target of the spell, and also on how they consider the selection of heighten target to be made, which is also not specified... for example, do you need to know who the target is? could you create a gylph of warding with a stored sickening radiance and select "the creature that triggers the glyph"? how about "the largest creature that triggered the glyph"? likewise, with your reverse gravity, the DM may require to choose one creature in the initial area, or may allow you to choose a specific creature in the event that it walks into the area (and if they never do, the heighten effect is wasted), or may even allow you to designate the first creature to walk into the area after it is cast. that's all pretty much up in the air. there is no clear RAW on the matter, so ask your DM, i cannot give you a ruling that is valid by default, it's all down to what is valid at your table with your group.

however, if i were to attempt to guess the typical default for most DMs, i would *guess* that most will allow you to choose a creature that you can somehow distinguish from others (which could be something like "the orc that is giving orders", but may also include "whichever creature is hiding behind that box" depending on DM) that is initially targeted by the spell.

[Raif]

snip

I see, that sounds... odd. I always understood it as Heighten spell just makes whoever is hit by that spell (regardless of # in cases like Fireball) makes it at disadvantage. I missed the part I bolded below.

When you Cast a Spell that forces a creature to make a saving throw to resist its effects, you can spend 3 sorcery points to give one target of the spell disadvantage on its first saving throw made against the spell.

That makes Heighten less... attractive for AoE spells. Thanks for the help!

[SharkForce]

I see, that sounds... odd. I always understood it as Heighten spell just makes whoever is hit by that spell (regardless of # in cases like Fireball) makes it at disadvantage. I missed the part I bolded below.




That makes Heighten less... attractive for AoE spells. Thanks for the help!

heighten kinda requires some specific spells to make it shine at all, in my opinion. it combos well with banishment, for example. the target fails a save, and now they're gone until you've cleaned up all their allies. maybe even just straight up gone, if they are from another plane and have no means of coming back.

it does less well with AoE, and with spells that allow additional saves (unless you intend for those to never come up... for example, if you use hold person on someone and then all of your melees get around that person and kill them off in a single round). personally, i'm not a huge fan... it is very expensive for what it does, imo, and is tremendously painful to pick up as one of your early choices as a result (at level 3, it is all of your free daily sorcerer points. even by level 7, when you finally get a spell that is versatile and works well with it in banishment, it is almost half of your daily free sorcerer points to use it just once on a single target, anything beyond that is coming out of your spell slots).

[Raif]

heighten kinda requires some specific spells to make it shine at all, in my opinion. it combos well with banishment, for example. the target fails a save, and now they're gone until you've cleaned up all their allies. maybe even just straight up gone, if they are from another plane and have no means of coming back.

it does less well with AoE, and with spells that allow additional saves (unless you intend for those to never come up... for example, if you use hold person on someone and then all of your melees get around that person and kill them off in a single round). personally, i'm not a huge fan... it is very expensive for what it does, imo, and is tremendously painful to pick up as one of your early choices as a result (at level 3, it is all of your free daily sorcerer points. even by level 7, when you finally get a spell that is versatile and works well with it in banishment, it is almost half of your daily free sorcerer points to use it just once on a single target, anything beyond that is coming out of your spell slots).

Yea I can see that. Im level 7 atm (5 phoenix sorcerer & 2 hexblade) with twin and quicken. I was planning on picking Heighten up at level 10 sorcerer since then I'll have a decent amount of sorcery points for spells like Mental Prison, Hold Person, and Banishment but I guess it won't work well for Hold Person. Seems best for single target save or suck spells along the lines of Mental Prison, Banishment and Disintegrate.

I'll have to rethink my choice, though I don't think anything else works as well. Maybe empower...

[SharkForce]

Yea I can see that. Im level 7 atm (5 phoenix sorcerer & 2 hexblade) with twin and quicken. I was planning on picking Heighten up at level 10 sorcerer since then I'll have a decent amount of sorcery points for spells like Mental Prison, Hold Person, and Banishment but I guess it won't work well for Hold Person. Seems best for single target save or suck spells along the lines of Mental Prison, Banishment and Disintegrate.

I'll have to rethink my choice, though I don't think anything else works as well. Maybe empower...

subtle is pretty cool too. lets you do some neat tricks if you choose the spells for it.

and hold person could work with heighten, it just needs to be used as a death sentence rather than as control. the moment you hold the target, everyone needs to get in there and nuke them down immediately.

[AnkhyMaFar]

Create Bonfire (EE/XGtE): A save cantrip, but it works with Draconic damage and can block choke points. Works well with Pyrotechnics and Quicken. (Concentration)

Pyrotechnics (EE/XGtE): Quickened Create Bonfire gives you a fire, and this spell lets you blind a lot of people with that fire. This might even make Blindness/Deafness obsolete.

Following the changes in wording to both Create Bonfire and Pyrotechnics in XGtE, where Create Bonfire now creates a magical bonfire, and Pyrotechnics requires a nonmagical flame, these two spells can no longer be comboed together. This has been confirmed by Jeremy Crawford on Twitter. It seems like they were never intended to work together.

[Back Stabbath]

Any advice on a Dragon Sorcerer Hexblade gish setup

I figure you should stick with Sorcerer until level 6 at least to get elemental damage bonus

[werescythe]

This might just be me, but I think Xanathar's guide actually buffed (in some areas) the Shadow Sorcerer.

• While Eyes of the Dark has its darkness spreading ability delayed until 3rd level, the nightvision you get at level 1 has been increased from 60ft to 120ft.
• The saving throw for Strength of the Grave is now Charisma instead of Constitution (since we're a Charisma based class that is a buff in my book).
• Hound of Ill Omen now gives the Hound temporary hit points equal to your sorcerer level (perhaps that is a good reason to not multi-class).
• Shadow Walk stayed the same (not that it needed to change, if you ask me).
• Shadow Form (which is now Umbral Form) did get a nerf as the sorcery points needed to use it increased from 3 points to 6 points and you lose your resistance to Radiant (it used to be only Force, now Radiant will damage you as well).

Looking at this is it worth working your way up to Umbral Form, or would it be better to multiclass into Warlock/Bard instead?

I was thinking it could be interesting to maybe become a bard for 6 levels and go into the College of Whispers so you can gain some of their cool shadow abilities.

Also the new 2nd level spell, Shadow Blade, would work really well with a Shadow Sorcerer I think.

[Shayahz]

Draconian resilience should be sky blue, it's basically like having really good light armor on ALL the time. If you bump up your dex and cha and take a fire dragon and use fire bolt ALOT ( as a go to spell, it's a good cantrip that scales amazingly) , you can do very well in combat despite being a non combatant class

[GhostInYourIcee]

An important note on Mage Armor for non-Draconic Sorcerers: its range is Touch, not Self. This means that if you have a Wizard, Monk, or another Sorcerer in the party, you can Twin the spell and apply it to two characters with only one spell slot. That's the equivalent of plate or at least splint armor for a decently built Monk, or one more attack/utility/support spell for your other caster to have prepared/known and one extra slot available. Given that it only costs 1 Sorcery Point, it's a pretty efficient defensive spell to have on your list, and perhaps even more worth knowing than Shield depending on your party composition and the campaign you're facing (if you're only looking to take one of the two of them, that is).

[werescythe]

I just wanted to say that for a Shadow Sorcerer above lvl 6, the 2nd lvl spell, Mind Spike isn't quite so bad (some aspects are still situational).

At lvl 6 you should be trying to harass your enemies (especially the big baddies with all the hard hitting attacks and spells) with your hound of ill omen. With Mind Spike you should be able to deal 100% of the damage most of the time so long as the enemy is affected by the hound. Also its effects last for an hour, so even if the hound is disposed of (either by death or by its 5 minute timer) you will still be able to follow and track the actions of that enemy (even when they are invisible).

Sure the spell stops once they leave the plane you are on, but usually when most enemies do that, its a last ditch effort to survive (plus now you can confidently tell your allies that this enemy has the ability to move from plane to plane).

[KorvinStarmast]

EA, I noticed this note in your spoiler tag for multiclassing.

Rogue: Sneak attack is fun, as is Expertise. A decent option

You rated it blue.

Is there a place in this thread where I can look at the Sorc/Rogue MC plusses and minuses?

[DaComputerNerd]

Can we have the Tal'Doreh Campaign Setting added to this (the Runechild sorcerous origin)? It seems interesting, but complex, and I really don't know whether it's worth playing.

[EvilAnagram]

Can we have the Tal'Doreh Campaign Setting added to this (the Runechild sorcerous origin)? It seems interesting, but complex, and I really don't know whether it's worth playing.

I have no intention of covering homebrew or third-party classes.

That said, the Runechild gets its first offensive feature at level 14, long after every other origin. It works well if you want to thank some damage, but otherwise it's underwhelming.

[werescythe]

I was wondering, let's say you want to make a Shadow Sorcerer Build that focuses on the Hound of Ill Omen, but not in the just Save or Suck spells but kind of focused on the Sorcerer treating it as a pet (kind of like a Familiar). I know that's mainly Roleplayey but I thought I would ask.

Are their any good feats, spells or even classes you can multiclass into (but not for too many levels due to the whole extra temp hit points thing) to do something like this?

[Raif]

I was wondering, let's say you want to make a Shadow Sorcerer Build that focuses on the Hound of Ill Omen, but not in the just Save or Suck spells but kind of focused on the Sorcerer treating it as a pet (kind of like a Familiar). I know that's mainly Roleplayey but I thought I would ask.

Are their any good feats, spells or even classes you can multiclass into (but not for too many levels due to the whole extra temp hit points thing) to do something like this?

From a roleplaying PoV - that is sort of entirely up to you. However:

At 6th level, you gain the ability to call forth a howling creature of darkness to harass your foes. As a bonus action, you can spend 3 sorcery points to magically summon a hound of ill omen to target one creature you can see within 120 feet of you. The hound uses the dire wolf statistics (see the Monster Manual or appendix C in the Player’s Handbook), with the following changes:

The hound is size Medium, not Large, and it counts as a monstrosity, not a beast.
It appears with a number of temporary hit points equal to half your sorcerer level.
It can move through other creatures and objects as if they were difficult terrain. The hound takes 5 force damage if it ends its turn inside an object.
At the start of its turn, the hound automatically knows its target’s location. If the target was hidden, it is no longer hidden from the hound.
The hound appears in an unoccupied space of your choice within 30 feet of the target. Roll initiative for the hound. On its turn, it can move only toward its target by the most direct route, and it can use its action only to attack its target. The hound can make opportunity attacks, but only against its target. Additionally, while the hound is within 5 feet of the target, the target has disadvantage on saving throws against any spell you cast. The hound disappears if it is reduced to 0 hit points, if its target is reduced to 0 hit points, or after 5 minutes.

Note the bold parts - The hound only exists for a maximum of 5 minutes if it takes no damage or your target doesn't die. Not sure how much of a "familiar" you can RP with that, but it's absolutely up to you.

[werescythe]

Note the bold parts - The hound only exists for a maximum of 5 minutes if it takes no damage or your target doesn't die. Not sure how much of a "familiar" you can RP with that, but it's absolutely up to you.

Well, the idea I had was that Shadow Hound (roleplaying wise) might speak subconsciously with the character as it doesn't have a physical form, so the player has to spend the sorcery points to summon it, thus bringing it into the physical plane.

[EvilAnagram]

Well, the idea I had was that Shadow Hound (roleplaying wise) might speak subconsciously with the character as it doesn't have a physical form, so the player has to spend the sorcery points to summon it, thus bringing it into the physical plane.

That's cool. I like the idea of having an invisible dog friend that sometimes murders people with you. However, there really isn't anything out there to solidify that concept mechanically.

[Raif]

Well, the idea I had was that Shadow Hound (roleplaying wise) might speak subconsciously with the character as it doesn't have a physical form, so the player has to spend the sorcery points to summon it, thus bringing it into the physical plane.

It's definitely a cool idea, but it's totally RP which means it's up to the DM and the player to work that out. It doesn't give the player any extra power, just flavor. You can have it be like Kindred from League of Legends that is technically 2 characters, but 1 is a wolf head that just floats around a lamb. Wolf doesn't do anything but talk to Lamb (together they are known as Kindred) until you use on of it's abilities.

You can flavor it as the players shadow that is animated or awakened, or a floating dog shadow head that hangs out on the body of the player and occasionally peeks its head out of the clothes to talk to the player.

Very cool idea.

[werescythe]

That's cool. I like the idea of having an invisible dog friend that sometimes murders people with you. However, there really isn't anything out there to solidify that concept mechanically.

Oh, I understand that. I was just wondering if there were any spells that the Sorcerer might have access to, that could be used on the hound to increase its potential, or if their was even a feat that could somehow benefit it.

[werescythe]

So I have a question. With Dragon's Breath, if you cast it onto your Hound of Ill Omen and it attacks an enemy within 5ft of it, does the character it is attacking have disadvantage, since you technically did cast the spell and gave your hound the ability to use the breath weapon?

Also if you have Elemental Adept, does the benefits of that feat apply to Dragon's Breath if the Hound attacks with the spell?

I guess here is another dumb question, can you twin Dragon's Breath? I mean it targets 1 other creature using touch (not self). And if it can be twinned could you give it to your Hound and yourself?

[werescythe]

Well? Does anyone have any feedback on the last question?

[EvilAnagram]

Well? Does anyone have any feedback on the last question?

You can twin Dragon's Breath, but I believe the Hound is specifically only able to use its action to attack, so it cannot benefit from the spell.

Empower specifies that it can only be used when you roll damage from a spell, and if someone else is using the spell they get to roll damage, so you can't empower.

[werescythe]

You can twin Dragon's Breath, but I believe the Hound is specifically only able to use its action to attack, so it cannot benefit from the spell.

Empower specifies that it can only be used when you roll damage from a spell, and if someone else is using the spell they get to roll damage, so you can't empower.

Okay, I thought it might work as Dragon's Breath seemed to merely give the Hound a breath weapon it could use to attack but I guess not.

However both Haste and Enlarge/Reduce should work as the enhance the Hounds speed or increase its size will giving it advantage against smaller enemies.