Mythos Homebrew Discussion III: Grievous Imbalance Is A Feature

[Quarian Rex]

Graven Void Shintai

Good sir, I do not believe that this is a shintai. What we have here is just a straight up buff. There is absolutely no downside or any aspect that would have any effect on the way the character is played other than to note that you now have a boatload of buffs.

I realize that you did add a Cha score of "-" but you also added this...

Diplomacy and Bluff are affected as a score of - would imply the same for constitution based effects. All other skills and abilities instead use either Wisdom or Intelligence, chosen at the activation of this mythos. Despite the lack of a Charisma score, the character is still sapient (that is, intelligent and capable of reacting) and usable as a Player Character.

... completely removing any possible penalty to the ability. Worse yet, you added this little tidbit...

Diplomacy and Bluff are affected as a score of - would imply the same for constitution based effects.

... which is completely meaningless. There is no implication to using skills based on an ability of "-" since creatures that have nulls for an attribute don't have skills associated with that attribute (or at least have have documentation of how that would work in their niche situation) and don't have any attribute modifier penalty associated with the null.

Have a look at the other existing shintais. There is benefit (and usually nowhere close to the crap-ton of buffs packed into this puppy, including perfect regeneration. WTH man...) coupled with game-changing limitations to the character. I believe you have completely missed the mark.

[Morphic tide]

Good sir, I do not believe that this is a shintai. What we have here is just a straight up buff. There is absolutely no downside or any aspect that would have any effect on the way the character is played other than to note that you now have a boatload of buffs.

I realize that you did add a Cha score of "-" but you also added this...

... completely removing any possible penalty to the ability. Worse yet, you added this little tidbit...

... which is completely meaningless. There is no implication to using skills based on an ability of "-" since creatures that have nulls for an attribute don't have skills associated with that attribute (or at least have have documentation of how that would work in their niche situation) and don't have any attribute modifier penalty associated with the null.

Have a look at the other existing shintais. There is benefit (and usually nowhere close to the crap-ton of buffs packed into this puppy, including perfect regeneration. WTH man...) coupled with game-changing limitations to the character. I believe you have completely missed the mark.

A quick fix would be having the regeneration shut off by hostile Positive Energy use, so people attempting to use Positive Energy to harm the one with the Shintai like an Undead can turn off the regeneration. More severely, clarifying that the character gets an effective -5 penalty for everything asking for a Charisma modifier makes a lot of stuff suffer significantly. Making them share in Construct weaknesses, like needing to jump through bundles of hoops to get reliable healing, adds another touch of issue. Just a bit of quick and sloppy downside application...

[ThreadNecro5]

So in my effort to get the Tipoparchi written I am trying to think of things that could be 'lost' to base each Mythos around.

Essentially Extraordinary Mythos are things that can be denied to a person, Fantastic are things inherent and vital to being a person, higher tiers are more esoteric facts of existence that cease to apply to the Tipoparchi and the area around them, ect.

Currently the ideas list is the following:
Name
Soul
Freedom
Choice
Light
Existence
Life
Cares
Knowledge
Corporeality
Voice
Sight
Race/creature type
Identity

Any and all help is appreciated.

[Gideon Falcon]

Semi-serious list of things you can lose:

Love
Faith
Face (Social connections)
One's Marbles (Sanity)
The Game
Strength
Your way (No, seriously, where are you?)
The Wi-fi Signal
Secrecy
The Advantage
Territory/Property
The Will to go on
Weight
Your keys, again

[TraceChaos]

I'm power scaling Graven Void versus Sjourner of a THousand Lives.

Sojourner of a Thousand Lives gives a purely fluff-based debuff of "Lol you're lacking personality."

In return it gives +6 to all three metnals and any ten feats you qualify for, including with the feats you get frmo it. TEN. FEATS.

Compared to regen with no bypass and your diplo and bluff having no stat to them, as well as something equivalent to an exceptional mythos... doesn'ts eem like that big a deal.

The biggest debuff the Shintai there really eneds is maybe just make ALL cha skills get no stat to them.

Manslayer Shintai gives you an infinitely-stacking buff to initiative and a SICK ****ing gaze attack in exchange for "You can't tell the commoners you arne't keeping track of apart frmo one another, and I guess you have to kill people that're significant threats to you unless you didn't do all the damage tot hem." And it's not a Legendary, it's a Fantastic.

I'm well versed in Mythos, alright.

Although, again, I was considering making it incapable of any form of reproduction (Including the mythos for waving yourh ands and raising undead) except a specific addon to a previous Oletherofex Mythos (The one where you bite people and ifnect them with a virus).

[NineOfSpades]

So, I've loved the The Kalthorros since I first layed eyes on it. And It's always pained me to see it remain so unfinished. Given that roko10 has said that he has abandoned the project, I've decided to take up the challenge to finish the task myself. Afterall, it seems wrong to give up on a class that is built as the embodiment of never giving up.

While it's not done yet, I've managed to rebuild a lot of the Kalthorros and really supercharge it's mechanics into something that, to me, seems more suited to the concepts. So I've reached a point where I'd like to show off what I've managed to make and hopefully get some feedback from more experienced homebrewers. Here is a link to the googledoc I've been using. I wanted to hold of on making a thread properly until I had something that was 100% playable.

If anyone has some free time, look it over and let me know how it all reads, what parts work and what parts need more polish. I'm also looking for more mythos suggestions and excellencies (Though I suppose that's true for most every mythos class).

[Gideon Falcon]

As much as I love the concept it references, I feel like the name Determinator's Mythos is too meta for a title. Maybe something like the Struggler's Mythos, or the Unbroken Mythos.

[NineOfSpades]

As much as I love the concept it references, I feel like the name Determinator's Mythos is too meta for a title. Maybe something like the Struggler's Mythos, or the Unbroken Mythos.

Easy enough to fix, thanks!

[Bluydee]

I don’t really understand why it’s Wisdom based though. When I think of willpower I think of the force of somebody’s personality powering through, especially considering the characters on the Kalthorros banners. I get that every single Mythos class is Charisma or Intelligence but fluff-wise it feels out of place IMO. One of the earlier iterations of this class was based off their Will Save, which I think is an interesting compromise that allows for either

[NineOfSpades]

I don’t really understand why it’s Wisdom based though. When I think of willpower I think of the force of somebody’s personality powering through, especially considering the characters on the Kalthorros banners. I get that every single Mythos class is Charisma or Intelligence but fluff-wise it feels out of place IMO. One of the earlier iterations of this class was based off their Will Save, which I think is an interesting compromise that allows for either

I mean, I agree with you, but this is a problem with no easy solution. The simplest answer is that, Since will saving throws are based on wisdom, the basic mechanics of D&D tells us that characters with more wisdom have more willpower. It’s not a perfect fit, as I agree that pretty much any one of the mental stats could, to one degree or another, be used as justification the baseline for willpower. Intelligence is typically used for Psionic, so that could be willpower. And as you pointed out, most of the more bombastic characters that are used as sources of inspiration for the mythos are charismatic and bring great force of personality.

Then again, I suppose the answer can be arrived at by coming at it from the other direction. Who has more willpower? A movie star who’s a total airhead that gets by on their looks and charm (High Charisma, Low Wisdom), or a hermit who lives in isolation and spends endless days in meditation (High wisdom, Low Charisma)?

The alternative of using the characters will save is not, in my mind, an idea solution, mostly because by definition it will always scale faster than characters whose abilities are based off of just an ability score (Will Save=Base Will Save + Wis Modifier), which means the character has an edge over other mythos classes since those abilities usually are based off of just an ability score. I find it very hard to believe that the embodiment of willpower has a fundamental mechanical advantage, when they should be an underdog compared to their mythic peers. It doesn’t take willpower to win when you are starting with a mechanical advantage.

If nothing else, I had to pick one ability score to use as the baseline for determining the saving throws of the mythos abilities. Otherwise you’d have the save be 10+1/2 Class Level + Will Save, which just seems ridiculous and opens the door to even more crazy things to base save DCs on, like HP or armor Class.

Short Answer: I'm not super happy with it either, but I think it's probably the best choice overall.

[nikkoli]

You could get really weird and makes the saves scale as 10+base will save + chosen stat modifier. It would be interesting because you'd get 12-22 as the base instead of 10-20, but how many abilities does that class have that are projected on others rather than focused upon themselves?

[ThreadNecro5]

Semi-serious list of things you can lose:

Love
Faith
Face (Social connections)
One's Marbles (Sanity)
The Game
Strength
Your way (No, seriously, where are you?)
The Wi-fi Signal
Secrecy
The Advantage
Territory/Property
The Will to go on
Weight
Your keys, again

Thank you. I can work with some of these.

Is it wrong that the first of these to turn into a crumb of an idea for something was 'the keys' because as a joke I decided to see what would happen if I tried to turn that into something.


Anyway while I'm asking everyone for advice, hat are people's thoughts on this WIP class feature.

Spoiler

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Cease to Be
The crux of the Nothing was the Young One tearing itself open and empty. The Tipoparchi in turn grows hollow before reveling themselves to the world.

At 1st level, a Tipoparchi is immune to the harm caused by contact with a Sphere of Annihilation, able to move through it as if it was not there, all items they carry also benefit form this immunity. Additionally they gain a +4 bonus on saving throws to resist Energy Drain and to remove Negative Levels. Physically the area over their heart (or the analogous location) becomes noticeably bruised or darkens as a small mote of Nothing develops in their heart.

At 3rd level, they gain immunity to Energy Drain and Negative Levels. Additionally They gain ?

The mote of Nothing within the Tipoparchi’s heart expands to replace the heart and create an opening in their chest (sometimes this only replaces the heart and opens up the bruised region, and at others it is a full cylinder right through the Tipoparchi’s chest). Due to the inability to comprehend true nothing non-Tipoparchi visually register this as a space of solid white, black, or some shade of gray. Any item that enters this nothing is destroyed as if by a Sphere of Annihilation. Generally there is no chance of this happening unless a creature does so deliberately. Any armour or clothing worn over this hole is drawn into it, creating a hole in the armour or clothing that revels the hole but otherwise does not damage the equipment. This takes an hour to occur.

At 5th level, they ?

As the second feature added at 3rd level I am considering porting over the effects of the Pathfinder Talisman of the sphere/otherwise making a portable Sphere of Annihilation. Perhaps add the ability to locate the nearest Sphere and similar voids in existence.

[Morphic tide]

If nothing else, I had to pick one ability score to use as the baseline for determining the saving throws of the mythos abilities. Otherwise you’d have the save be 10+1/2 Class Level + Will Save, which just seems ridiculous and opens the door to even more crazy things to base save DCs on, like HP or armor Class..

...you do realize that DCs based on shenanigan numbers are an entirely useful concept, right? A save DC based on current health works quite well to incentivize not being a meat shield by making you less effective with damage. Which makes people at least try to play smart. Scaling with AC instead of Con means that you give an incentive to actually use the heaviest armor, which, coincidentally, comes pretty close to the expected ability score modifiers at higher levels. So some adjustments may be needed, but it incentivizes play styles and character builds that more conventional DC scaling values wouldn't.

Seriously, DCs based on skill checks are entirely usable. Particularly if you do something to cap them, while not having going over be completely useless.

[Lanth Sor]

Thank you. I can work with some of these.

Is it wrong that the first of these to turn into a crumb of an idea for something was 'the keys' because as a joke I decided to see what would happen if I tried to turn that into something.


Anyway while I'm asking everyone for advice, hat are people's thoughts on this WIP class feature.

Spoiler

Show

Cease to Be
The crux of the Nothing was the Young One tearing itself open and empty. The Tipoparchi in turn grows hollow before reveling themselves to the world.

At 1st level, a Tipoparchi is immune to the harm caused by contact with a Sphere of Annihilation, able to move through it as if it was not there, all items they carry also benefit form this immunity. Additionally they gain a +4 bonus on saving throws to resist Energy Drain and to remove Negative Levels. Physically the area over their heart (or the analogous location) becomes noticeably bruised or darkens as a small mote of Nothing develops in their heart.

At 3rd level, they gain immunity to Energy Drain and Negative Levels. Additionally They gain ?

The mote of Nothing within the Tipoparchi’s heart expands to replace the heart and create an opening in their chest (sometimes this only replaces the heart and opens up the bruised region, and at others it is a full cylinder right through the Tipoparchi’s chest). Due to the inability to comprehend true nothing non-Tipoparchi visually register this as a space of solid white, black, or some shade of gray. Any item that enters this nothing is destroyed as if by a Sphere of Annihilation. Generally there is no chance of this happening unless a creature does so deliberately. Any armour or clothing worn over this hole is drawn into it, creating a hole in the armour or clothing that revels the hole but otherwise does not damage the equipment. This takes an hour to occur.

At 5th level, they ?

As the second feature added at 3rd level I am considering porting over the effects of the Pathfinder Talisman of the sphere/otherwise making a portable Sphere of Annihilation. Perhaps add the ability to locate the nearest Sphere and similar voids in existence.

I need this in my life. TBH i like the oblvion aspect of Mythic necro but its oblivion from the stance of life death or Nothing, not absolute nothing.

[Bluydee]

Short Answer: I'm not super happy with it either, but I think it's probably the best choice overall.

Personally, I think the best bet is to just let people choose whether their key modifier is wisdom or charisma. It’s not like either stat has much of an advantage over the other

And on the topic of Will Saves used as a modifier, I think it’s very thematic if they are used very sparingly, like once per day/encounter/week/level/grit point add your Will Save to any roll, or something more creative like that

[roko10]

Wow, Nine, great job on finishing what's essentially an abandoned project, though it's less because I got bored with it and more that I hit a wall with Mythos concepts. And, well, boredom.

Also, for the Wisdom modifier debate, maybe give them the option to choose between Charisma and Wisdom to determine their Grit pool?

[Drunken Jesus]

so is there any chance some one might revive to proidos then? i was really excited for that class. it seems when some one makes a mythic scientist, they seem to just never finish it.

[roko10]

I’m actually planning on a rework of the Proidos, one that’s perhaps more inclined towards Augments and Templates, and with several massive buffs, so don’t worry about that. The reason why it kind of died was because I kind of forgot about it, and when I came back to work on it, it... was kind of a cluttered mess.

Also, I’m going to make a Mythic Cyborg add-on in the vein of the Mythic Warlock, so stay tuned.

[NineOfSpades]

Wow, Nine, great job on finishing what's essentially an abandoned project, though it's less because I got bored with it and more that I hit a wall with Mythos concepts. And, well, boredom.

Also, for the Wisdom modifier debate, maybe give them the option to choose between Charisma and Wisdom to determine their Grit pool?

Not like I had much choice. The class itself refuses to give up.

I added in an excellency that will hopefully resolve the wisdom charsima issue.

Force of Will And Personality
Prerequisite:-
You draw your willpower more from your deeply held sense of self and identity rather than from focus and concentration. You may replace your wisdom modifier with your charisma modifier for determining the DC for your mythos abilities, the size of your grit pool, and the effects of any of your mythos that are dependent on your wisdom modifier.

Now it's pretty easy to switch the class from being a Wisdom focused build to a Charisma focused build.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Mythic Elemental is up! Link!

[Gideon Falcon]

I’m actually planning on a rework of the Proidos, one that’s perhaps more inclined towards Augments and Templates, and with several massive buffs, so don’t worry about that. The reason why it kind of died was because I kind of forgot about it, and when I came back to work on it, it... was kind of a cluttered mess.

Also, I’m going to make a Mythic Cyborg add-on in the vein of the Mythic Warlock, so stay tuned.

HUZZAH! It lives! The Iron Man shall walk again! Looking forward with eagerness, roko!

[Lanth Sor]

Mythic Souls Hollow Mythos coming soon.

Need some help with the racial balance.

[roko10]

So, have an ridiculously unbalanced Exalted Kalthorros Shintai, meant only when the campaign goes FUBAR and you're for some reason up against enemies better suited for high Epic levels of play, as well as a slightly more balanced Dinyomi excellency that prevents you from having to derail the entire campaign just because some idiot under your command made fun of your orders.

​

Spoiler: Exalted Mythos (Kalthorros)

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Final Unbroken Roar Shintai
Prerequisite: -, unless you count a game gone tits up as a prerequisite.

Upon taking this Mythos, you're immediately made aware of your Mythic nature, regardless of what you initially thought it was, as well as a certain ritual that you can undertake to unleash the full power of your Mythos, albeit at a great cost. To perform this ritual, you must meditate uninterrupted for eight hours; any interruption will force you to start all over again.

However, the boons of this ritual are massive. You multiply any numerical value (such as ability scores, attack bonuses, damage AC, and saving throws) that you have or are currently benefiting from by 10x, as you finally transcend from the boundaries of lesser men. You may opt to omit certain effects from this multiplier; if you're suffering from a Slow spell, you don't have to suffer a -10 penalty to rolls. You may spend Grit points up to your class level to add a cumulative 5x to the multiplier for one minute, although you do not modify the amount of hit points or the points in your Grit pool as a result of this temporary multiplier. In addition, you learn three Exalted or lower Mythos from any Mythos class list, as you grasp beyond your limits and into the boundaries of other Titans.

Finally, your sheer power makes it nigh impossible to actually comprehend it. You (or the weltering power inside of you) cannot be detected by any means short of the five base senses: scrying sensors immediately falter, a Reth Dekala’s Weakness-Browsing Arrogance Mythos always considers you as Worthless, regardless of how far above him you actually are, abilities specifically describe to detect your life-force or Mythic essence are ineffective in actually detecting you, and much, much more. This also prevents anybody from casting teleportation effects or teleporting in a (200ft/level) radius around you, as per the Dimensional Anchor spell.

However, this power comes at a major cost; your Mythic power will slowly ebb away from you, eventually disappating completely. After completeing the aforementioned ritual, you will lose all your Exalted Mythos (except for this Shintai) after three days, Legendary Mythos after a week, Fantastic Mythos after two weeks, and Exceptional Mythos after a month. Finally, after all your other Mythos are lost, this Shintai becomes sealed, meaning that, whilst you still have this Shintai, you don't reap any benefits whatsoever from it, nor can you initiate the ritual again. In effect, you become a glorified Warrior, although you may opt to take up another Mythos class (and are considered to take your first level in that Mythic class), so long as you don't use an ability to get access to the Unbroken Mythos, such as the Mythic Amalgam line of feats or Omnicapable Human-Spirit Ignition.

(You still retain any feat granted by your Mythos, but you do not apply any modifier to them caused by Mythos. For example, if you had the Masamune-Wielding Rigor advanced manifestation of Undeniable Impact Style, you will still retain the Monkey Grip feat granted to you; however, you will still suffer from the -2 penalty from using oversized weapons, as you don't have the ability that says that you don't suffer from that penalty anymore.)

Basic

Mythless Sky(Prerequisite: Boundary-Breaking Burst): As a standard action, you may unleash a massive, decisive attack. Treat this attack as a normal attack enhanced by Boundary-Breaking Burst, but multiply the amount of rolled die by x10 whilst using it, ignore the limitation that you may only spend up to your class level in Grit points to enhance the attack, you automatically hit with the attack, and you may also apply the attack to everything within a (100ft + 25ft per class level long, 20ft+5ft per class level wide) line. In addition, should you manage to reduce someone to -10 hit points, they die, regardless of any class features, spells, or GM fiat.

Finally, should you somehow fail to kill your target with this attack, you still manage to rob them of most of their defenses; if they have any kind of immunity or resistance to anything whatsoever, those immunities and resistances are dispelled for an amount of minutes equal to your Wisdom modifier, allowing someone else to sweep in and seal or kill your target.

However, this power causes you to lose your connection to your Mythic nature at an even faster rate. After using this attack, you lose all your Exalted Mythos (except for this Shintai, which again will be rendered inert after you lost all other Mythos) after a minute, Legendary Mythos after half a hour, Fantastic Mythos after four hours, and Exceptional Mythos after twenty-four hours.

Advanced

An Tale, Renewed and Reborn: This manifestation does not exist yet; however, a particularly traumatic event happening to a former Kalthorros can reignite the spark of the Unbroken Mythos, causing them to almost spontaneously regain their access to the Mythos they once sacrificed.

Upon taking this Manifestation, you immediately regain all the Mythos lost through the effects of this Shintai, with the exception of the three free Exalted Mythos that you gained after the ritual. In addition, you may also, instead of just restoring your Mythos, choose to rebuild your character from the ground up to represent a melding of your old, Struggle-derived power and new learning. For example, a former Kalthorros who has lost his Mythos through the use of this ability, which then took to studying the flow of elements, only to lose it again through Essence Fracture may opt to replace one of his feats with Broken Omphalos Amalgam and replace several of his Exceptional and Fantastic Mythos with Kathodos-derived ones, representing him embracing both his old abilities and his new ones.

However, after taking this manifestation, you still can never replicate the ritual granted to you by this Shintai- that will be forever out of your reach.

Spoiler: Dinyomi Excellency

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​Mass-Opinion Spurning Ephipany
Prerequisite: -

The Conqueror may be prideful beyond reproach, but, despite what many claimed, he wasn’t so fragile as to buckle and break under the hushed whispers of the lowly masses. After all, why would someone who’s risen above the level of the petty scum care about their gossip? Why would a lion care about the buzzing of the flies?

You are no longer Humbled by everyone who has seen you bested or denounced by someone who saw you as Glorious or subject to a compulsion or domination effect, only by the person who has done such an act in the first place; you’ve finally realized that the opinions of the crowd doesn’t matter so much as the fact that someone upstart thinks he's better than you.

In addition, you gain an additional condition to keep track of; Scornful, caused after you so thoroughly humiliated someone in response of you being made Humbled by them, that they can only see you in terms of fear. If you’re Scornful towards somebody, it means that you can no longer be Humbled by that person anymore; you’re forever considered Glorious to them.

[Gideon Falcon]

It's amalgam, actually. Still, a pretty interesting mythos, and the Excellency is probably a major necessity now you bring it up. A Dinyomi probably wouldn't bat an eye at punishing people for hearing insults against him, but it would be a logistical nightmare.

[NineOfSpades]

If you are going to make such a one-shot ability, it needs to be way over the top. I would go bigger, maybe as high as x100. If you are losing everything, it better guarantee victory.

[roko10]

Honestly, I thought that the ability would be too overpowered if it was 100x the modifier, but considering that it's now being considered too weak, I might as well amp it even further.

-Every single numerical value of yours is multiplied by 10, and you can spend grit points to amplify them even further. The enemy also can no longer throw debuffs at you and call it a day.
-You get three Exalted Mythos from any source now, instead of just one.
-Mythless Sky now requires ungodly amounts of die, automatically hits, and now is a true "screw-you" beam that makes CLEANSE THIS WORLD AWASH IN THE FLAMES OF MINE OWN HEART look like a gods-damned peashooter. If you don't manage to kill your target(s) with this attack, you either didn't put enough grit points in the attack (but why, though?) or you really bit off far more than you could chew.

(To put things in perspective here, a reasonably-optimized Kalthorros would have a 20 in Wisdom/Charisma. Final Unbroken Roar makes it so that he has an whopping 200 points in Wisdom/Charimsa, giving him a ability score bonus of +95. If he has taken Paragon of Spirit thrice and is level 20, he now has 365 grit points. Boundary Breaking Burst gives 1d6/2 class levels plus 1d6 per grit point you spend on it, up to a maximum of your class level, a restriction which Mythless Sky waives.

So, assuming that the Kalthorros initiates Mythless Sky with a full grit point pool and expends all of his grit points, he will now have to roll 3700d6. worth of die, meaning that he deals 12950 damage on average, and 22200 maximum. At this stage, you can kill pretty much anything save from abstract concepts like Death himself.)

Also, I'm thinking of adding a Basic manifestation building off Burning Blood To Cut Through Fate, too.

[NineOfSpades]

It might be worthwhile to change the mythos so that the 'one time insta-kickass mode' is an advanced manifestation or something. As is, even with the power boost, I would likely never choose the mythos for anything other than a one-shot. It just holds way to much risk for use. Like, if the BBEG you are trying to fight just teleport away, for example.

I'm not entirely sure how to fix that issue, as it stands, since I really do like the idea of a one shot super boost with massive drawbacks.

[roko10]

A simple passive Dimensional Anchor effect would probably nullify the “but what if he teleports” problem.

Also, the risk is actually inherent. It’s a Shintai. In a game where you don’t accidentally end up tussling with the Lady of Pain, you probably shouldn’t use it.

In other words, it’s meant for the rare situations where it’s the final battle, and through the party’s poor choices, they’re about to lose everything were it not for the Shintai.

[roko10]

Sorry for double-posting, but Jormengand made an... uh, thing.

[Theseventh]

Sorry for double-posting, but Jormengand made an... uh, thing.

It was a good thing.