Girl Genius XIX: Worth a Third of Your Grade

[Gez]

Except, of course, that Baron Wulfenbach didn't want to keep Othar locked up in a spark-proof thing; When first we meet Othar, Klaus wanted to dissect Othar's mind to better understand the spark, destroying the mind in the process. When second Othar and Klaus meets in the comic, Klaus has captured him because he wants to enslave Othar, forcing him under duress with an exploding collar to save Gil from the deadly Castle Heterodyne as an alternative to killing Othar. I've a hard time seeing Klaus as a more sympathetic character for either of these reasons.

You seem to underestimate at which level the Baron is working.
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040121
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040227

[Hurkyl]

Argh, the OP misses the best part of the introduction.

It is a world ruled by mad science, poorly!

[memnarch]

Argh, the OP misses the best part of the introduction.

It is a world ruled by mad science, poorly!

Yeah, but there's so much text already in the post, I didn't want to clutter it up even more.

[lurkmeister]

Except, of course, that Baron Wulfenbach didn't want to keep Othar locked up in a spark-proof thing; When first we meet Othar, Klaus wanted to dissect Othar's mind to better understand the spark, destroying the mind in the process. When second Othar and Klaus meets in the comic, Klaus has captured him because he wants to enslave Othar, forcing him under duress with an exploding collar to save Gil from the deadly Castle Heterodyne as an alternative to killing Othar. I've a hard time seeing Klaus as a more sympathetic character for either of these reasons.

Hey, I'm not saying he's a good character. My point is that as this comic goes on his reasons do have a tendency to make more sense ... which makes him less of a kick-the-dog villain and more of a well-intentioned extremist. I don't think either Gil or Agatha or Tarvek would ever have his propensity towards human experimentation and enslavement, but there's no denying that Othar Tryggvassen is better off out of the picture (from their perspective).

It'll be fun to see how he screws everything up this time.

[Douglas]

Hey, I'm not saying he's a good character. My point is that as this comic goes on his reasons do have a tendency to make more sense ... which makes him less of a kick-the-dog villain and more of a well-intentioned extremist. I don't think either Gil or Agatha or Tarvek would ever have his propensity towards human experimentation and enslavement, but there's no denying that Othar Tryggvassen is better off out of the picture (from their perspective).

It'll be fun to see how he screws everything up this time.

There's a reason Klaus Wulfenbach is the source of the page quote for TVTropes The Extremist Was Right. He's a lot like a well played Renegade Commander Shepard, I think. Everything he does has a good and sensible reason behind it, he's just willing to use methods and means that most people would despise and all too often faces problems that he can't find any better solution for.

[Sean Mirrsen]

New strip.

Heh. "Other problems." :P

[factotum]

I wonder: did Othar see Tarvek get poisoned? That piece of information might be quite important here.

[Neoriceisgood]

Sup!

I quit reading GG around the time that Mechanicsburg got invaded and Agatha stepped through some magic portal and met not-Tarvec.


Has anything worth catching up to happened since that time?

[halfeye]

Sup!

I quit reading GG around the time that Mechanicsburg got invaded and Agatha stepped through some magic portal and met not-Tarvec.


Has anything worth catching up to happened since that time?

I think so, but it depends on why you gave up. The plot has not really advanced, gone backward in some ways, but there have been quite a lot of adventures.

Not Tarvek is a jerk of Othar's calibre, and Othar has just been seen for the first time since you left, so their meeting is presumably scheduled. Worst case they'll like each other, but Othar wants to kill all sparks and Martellus (Not-Tarvek) is a spark, so that seems unlikely.

[eee]

The doctor's pretty good with explanations!

Othar can shift gears really fast. As befits a Gentleman Adventurer.

I wonder: did Othar see Tarvek get poisoned? That piece of information might be quite important here.

Kind of doubtful. Tarvek and Violetta followed Tweedle down into the catacombs. That's why Gil was complaining about how difficult it was to retrieve him, he's in a place that's hard to get to. If Othar had been close enough to see Martellus throw the knife, first of all he'd have probably joined in the attack on Martellus and either stopped him or gone through the portal with Agatha and Co. And second, if he WERE that close when the Time Bomb went off, it would mean Gil's tunneling operation was close to Tarvek and you'd think Gil would want to know how much longer until they reached him...

And if Othar WERE close enough to have seen the poisoning, all he would have seen was a knife going into Tarvek's chest. Now, this being Othar, he might, through observation and deduction, know the blade was poisoned; but he wouldn't know how virulent the poison was. Even warned, I doubt Gil would be prepared for how little time he had to save Tarvek.

[eschmenk]

IMO, Othar is more complex than a lot of the comments have indicated. Othar has been known to show considerable wisdom and insight actually, but I agree that he is much more likely to show extreme goofiness.

I agree with Eee about Othar probably not knowing about what happened to Tarvek. I think Gil may already know, though. Tarvek was located by Gil's people, so they may have at least seen the knife. I quickly scanned through some of the pages and I didn't see anyone specifically tell Gil about the poisoned knife, but Agatha spent time with Gil and could have told him. Zeetha may have been told and could have told Higgs. Marellus might have told Seffie who might have told Gil. There are probably other ways that Gil might have found out already. I wouldn't count on Gil not already knowing, but I don't really know.

[lord_khaine]

Gil does know whats wrong with Tarvek, it were in one of the messages that Agatha send to him, though i can recall on what page it is.

[Calemyr]

IMO, Othar is more complex than a lot of the comments have indicated. Othar has been known to show considerable wisdom and insight actually, but I agree that he is much more likely to show extreme goofiness.

I agree with Eee about Othar probably not knowing about what happened to Tarvek. I think Gil may already know, though. Tarvek was located by Gil's people, so they may have at least seen the knife. I quickly scanned through some of the pages and I didn't see anyone specifically tell Gil about the poisoned knife, but Agatha spent time with Gil and could have told him. Zeetha may have been told and could have told Higgs. Marellus might have told Seffie who might have told Gil. There are probably other ways that Gil might have found out already. I wouldn't count on Gil not already knowing, but I don't really know.

Yeah, Othar is quite a bit more complex than popular impression. He has to be, in order to be as effective as he actually is. He struggles against Agatha and the Wulfenbachs, yes, but let's be fair: everyone does. And when you look at his actual reputation, rather than his tilting at the Barony, the story changes pretty drastically.

Honestly, I think Othar's absurdly canny, on par with Klaus. Like Klaus, he's smart enough know the importance of controlling the narrative, he just takes a different angle on it. Where Klaus simply conveys absolute inevitability, however, Othar uses the romantic tendencies of the sparkless to grease his agenda. Look how popular the dime novel is in Europa, or how Heterodyne plays draw in the crowds. Othar's comically dramatic persona is perfect for capturing the hearts of the people, fitting himself nicely in the void in the public mind labelled "hero". I'm pretty sure he means it, of course, he really is trying to be the wall between the sparkless and the Sparks that make their lives miserable. He's just set it up so that he's able to pursue his crusade and get the masses to applaud him for it. He may even do it for them, now that I think about it. That void exists because they need a hero, maybe not to save them, but to make their lives more endurable. Just by playing the ham, he gives people happy stories to talk about, rather than just the latest war or casualties by scientific abomination, in effect saving more lives than just the next damsel in distress.

I think he stays in "performance mode" almost all the time, always playing for the audience in case there is one, and just a couple times putting it aside when things get sincere. This is one of those times. Once he's up to speed, I expect he'll go right back into full ham mode, saying something along the lines of either "This is your one chance at redemption, will you help me or will you be part of the problem?" or "Much as I'd love to bring you down, foul villain, there are darker threats I must attend to first!" Either way, he'll do whatever he feels will resolve the problem best while not betraying his heroic persona.

[memnarch]

Gil does know whats wrong with Tarvek, it were in one of the messages that Agatha send to him, though i can recall on what page it is.

Didn't say what kind of poison, but yes.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, Othar is quite a bit more complex than popular impression. He has to be, in order to be as effective as he actually is. He struggles against Agatha and the Wulfenbachs, yes, but let's be fair: everyone does. And when you look at his actual reputation, rather than his tilting at the Barony, the story changes pretty drastically.

Honestly, I think Othar's absurdly canny, on par with Klaus. Like Klaus, he's smart enough know the importance of controlling the narrative, he just takes a different angle on it. Where Klaus simply conveys absolute inevitability, however, Othar uses the romantic tendencies of the sparkless to grease his agenda. Look how popular the dime novel is in Europa, or how Heterodyne plays draw in the crowds. Othar's comically dramatic persona is perfect for capturing the hearts of the people, fitting himself nicely in the void in the public mind labelled "hero". I'm pretty sure he means it, of course, he really is trying to be the wall between the sparkless and the Sparks that make their lives miserable. He's just set it up so that he's able to pursue his crusade and get the masses to applaud him for it. He may even do it for them, now that I think about it. That void exists because they need a hero, maybe not to save them, but to make their lives more endurable. Just by playing the ham, he gives people happy stories to talk about, rather than just the latest war or casualties by scientific abomination, in effect saving more lives than just the next damsel in distress.

I think he stays in "performance mode" almost all the time, always playing for the audience in case there is one, and just a couple times putting it aside when things get sincere. This is one of those times. Once he's up to speed, I expect he'll go right back into full ham mode, saying something along the lines of either "This is your one chance at redemption, will you help me or will you be part of the problem?" or "Much as I'd love to bring you down, foul villain, there are darker threats I must attend to first!" Either way, he'll do whatever he feels will resolve the problem best while not betraying his heroic persona.

It hadn't really occurred to me until now, but you've also basically described Darkwing Duck; goofy and comedic, except when it really matters. When Othar drops the bombastic GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER routine - or worse, takes off his visor - you know the situation has gotten serious.

[Douglas]

Didn't say what kind of poison, but yes.

Ah, good. Gil may not know exactly what poison, or how deadly it is, but he does know it exists and that it came from Martellus. He should be able to deduce "incredibly deadly" from that, simply because Martellus wouldn't use anything less on a direct rival.

[Calemyr]

It hadn't really occurred to me until now, but you've also basically described Darkwing Duck; goofy and comedic, except when it really matters. When Othar drops the bombastic GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER routine - or worse, takes off his visor - you know the situation has gotten serious.

I see the similarity, but I also see one major difference. Darkwing Duck is an immature glory hound who has to be forced to put his ego in check before his natural competence comes to the fore. Othar, I believe, is crafting a persona specifically tailored to catch the public's imagination, although he has adhered to that persona almost to the point of delusion. Othar's theatrics benefit his effectiveness, rather than an obstacle to it.

That said, yeah, they both have character breaks when their usual persona gets in the way. DW puts his ego aside in order to be startlingly effective, Othar puts his theatrics aside as a display of sincerity and an acknowledgement to others that the situation is not a game.

[eschmenk]

Look how popular the dime novel is in Europa, or how Heterodyne plays draw in the crowds. Othar's comically dramatic persona is perfect for capturing the hearts of the people, fitting himself nicely in the void in the public mind labelled "hero".

I like your analysis. I think another factor related to the part I quoted is that Othar is influenced by such stories, too. Not only do they influence how people expect heroes to act, they probably influence how Othar thinks a hero should act. He probably thinks of himself as maintaining a proud tradition. He gets excessively caught up in the hero role at times, but he's a spark, so that should be expected.

[HandofShadows]

What's funny about Othar the hero is always supposed to win. But he keeps loosing (often badly) to Klaus and Gil (and even Agatha some). Something that points to who the real heroes are maybe?

[Douglas]

What's funny about Othar the hero is always supposed to win. But he keeps loosing (often badly) to Klaus and Gil (and even Agatha some). Something that points to who the real heroes are maybe?

Ah, but every significant villain gets temporary victories all the time, usually through dastardly underhanded means. Declaring "FOUL!" every time someone beats him fits that narrative perfectly.

[eschmenk]

What's funny about Othar the hero is always supposed to win. But he keeps loosing (often badly) to Klaus and Gil (and even Agatha some). Something that points to who the real heroes are maybe?

Othar thinks of Agatha as being heroic now, so she's not a good example. Also, although, of course, a hero can't run away, we don't know that Othar has been trying to hunt Klaus or Gil down. He seems to look for other adventures, but he doesn't always have a choice. If Gil or Klaus trapped Othar in a situation where he was forced to choose between opposing them or looking bad, naturally he would act as if he was the hero and they were the villains. In this case, he thought Gil had captured him. Shortly before (as far as he knew) Gil had tried to capture Agatha on the rooftop of the castle, but Franz had carried Gil away. Why would Othar automatically trust Gil now?

[wingnutx]

Ah, but every significant villain gets temporary victories all the time, usually through dastardly underhanded means. Declaring "FOUL!" every time someone beats him fits that narrative perfectly.

It's way too early. The tension needs to build more.

[geoduck]

For what it's worth, the print-novel adaptations of GG far more explicitly state that yes, the whole goofy Gentlemen Adventurer thing is a facade that Othar puts up.

And one thing about Agatha's warning about the poisoning; it's not clear at what point head-Klaus steps in and takes control of Gil, so he may or may not have heard that specific warning.

[Traab]

Im more tagging this post right now, I cant believe I didnt notice the new one going up.

[eschmenk]

And one thing about Agatha's warning about the poisoning; it's not clear at what point head-Klaus steps in and takes control of Gil, so he may or may not have heard that specific warning.

I think Gil is aware of what is happening even when Klaus takes control. That's based on what he says here. He's talking about Klaus overriding him and forcing him to do things, rather than taking over his consciousness. It would be more like Lucrucrezia's wasp-based mind control than what happened with Agatha. (Lucrezia's mind was supposed to replace Agatha's rather than control Agatha's and when the locket is off, it does.) Except for the mind-destroyed shamblers, the revenants actually are aware of what they are doing, they just can't control themselves and must obey the commands that they are given. (Apparently there are some built-in commands that they don't need to be told: they can't warn anyone, they can't harm Lucrezia, etc.)

[Drascin]

I see the similarity, but I also see one major difference. Darkwing Duck is an immature glory hound who has to be forced to put his ego in check before his natural competence comes to the fore. Othar, I believe, is crafting a persona specifically tailored to catch the public's imagination, although he has adhered to that persona almost to the point of delusion. Othar's theatrics benefit his effectiveness, rather than an obstacle to it.

That said, yeah, they both have character breaks when their usual persona gets in the way. DW puts his ego aside in order to be startlingly effective, Othar puts his theatrics aside as a display of sincerity and an acknowledgement to others that the situation is not a game.

The other difference is, of course, Darkwing being actually heroic.

[The Glyphstone]

The other difference is, of course, Darkwing being actually heroic.

Remember our perceptions are slanted by our particular protagonist. As far as 99.99% of Sparky Europa goes, Othar is the hero he makes himself out to be - Sparks are bad news for pretty much every non-Spark out there. Him being somewhat deranged as any Spark must be, and mostly incapable of separating himself from his narrative, means he can't see the rare occasion of a benign or benevolent Spark when it comes along.

[eschmenk]

Him being somewhat deranged as any Spark must be, and mostly incapable of separating himself from his narrative, means he can't see the rare occasion of a benign or benevolent Spark when it comes along.

He did recognize that Agatha was benevolent pretty quickly and has been helping her since then. He can tell that the Wulfenbachs aren't completely evil and cooperates with them when appropriate. I think saying that "he can't see the rare occasion of a benign or benevolent Spark when it comes along" is overstating it. He might not realize it at first glance, but he seems to be able to figure it out. I can't think of any benign or benevolent Spark that Othar hasn't recognized.

I don't think there is any question that Othar acts like a hero under the GG universe's definition of hero. Agatha called him a hero when she first met him. Why not take her word for it?

[halfeye]

Agatha called him a hero when she first met him. Why not take her word for it?

Because she later changed her mind?

[eschmenk]

Because she later changed her mind?

We know that didn't happen.

The castle actually tested Othar using the scientific method and determined that Othar was a real hero. Anyone who claims that Othar isn't a hero is arguing against science. Agatha certainly wouldn't do that.

I'm not going to look for the URL, but the castle tested Othar on pages 62-63 of the PDF version of Volume 11.

ADDED: An easy to find additional example: Agatha called what Othar did "hero-ing" even after he shot a hole in her airship.