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    Question Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    As a lurker for some time and a first-time poster, I'm a bit confused. As far as I can tell, vampires in OOTS do not have their original souls, but instead have a negative energy spirit-thing ( I think? ) with their memories, experiences, and skills. What I want to know is this: do all vampires start out like Durkula, with a specific goal to accomplish? If Roy was turned, where would the spirit come from?
    Last edited by Remagamer; 2015-11-19 at 01:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    Short version, no and Hel, respectively.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    There is absolutely zero difference between Malack and Durkon's vampirizations, with the sole exception that Hel made the spirit sitting in Durkon's head while Nergal made the one that was sitting in Malack's. Hel is able to put that spirit into Durkon's body because of the physical vampirization process that Malack enacts on Durkon's corpse, which opens a door to Negative Energy and traps Durkon's spirit inside it. Which would also be true of any other vampire created from a person who fell under the Northern Pantheon's domain, though she wouldn't take a personal interest in just any person because they wouldn't be a powerful cleric.
    Roy follows the Northern gods, so Hel would be responsible for producing the spirit animating the hypothetical Vampiroy (Roypire?).

    Anyway, continuing on....
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    (Malack) would have switched gods because whatever nature-oriented barbarian deity he used to worship no longer granted spells to a vampire that was keeping his former cleric's soul hostage. I suppose, hypothetically, he could have decided to keep worshipping a god who didn't want him and never granted him spells, ignoring the fact that there was another god who did want him and would grant him spells. But he didn't. And maybe, hypothetically, there's another god out there that would accept a vampire cleric other than Nergal, and he could have started worshipping him. But he didn't. He looked at the situation logically and said, "Oh, this must be my rightful place in the universe. Hail Nergal!" and called it a day. That's still free will.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Malack had free will. He was an Evil person, in the same way that Redcloak is an Evil person. If he was slavishly loyal to Nergal, that was because he was a cleric, not because he was a vampire. He chose to be devoted to something larger than himself when he could have just rampaged around the continent draining people. Everything he did, every action you saw him take, was his own decision. Nothing about the metaphysics of how vampirism works changes anything. Even in the scenarios you would have preferred, if Nergal gave him a direct order, he still would have been obligated to follow it as a high-level Lawful priest. The end result is all the same.

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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Remagamer View Post
    As a lurker for some time and a first-time poster, I'm a bit confused. As far as I can tell, vampires in OOTS do not have their original souls, but instead have a negative energy spirit-thing ( I think? ) with their memories, experiences, and skills.
    Not quite. They are negative energy spirits with no memories, experience or skills at all, but are capable of leaching those memories, experience and skills from the host, as demonstrated by Durkon's vampire spirit (who occasionally needs to invoke more memories to fill gaps). When all memories are absorbed, the original soul is shunted aside, and forgotten.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remagamer View Post
    What I want to know is this: do all vampires start out like Durkula, with a specific goal to accomplish?
    No. The only reason this one had a goal was because, as a high level priest, he is in direct communication with the deity that created him, and therefore Hel took personal interest in him. Still, he is free-willed. He could have chosen to not communicate with her at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remagamer View Post
    If Roy was turned, where would the spirit come from?
    From the Northern God of Human dead/undead, which I believe is Hel.

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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No. The only reason this one had a goal was because, as a high level priest, he is in direct communication with the deity that created him, and therefore Hel took personal interest in him. Still, he is free-willed. He could have chosen to not communicate with her at all.
    Note of course that a vampire cleric who pulled something like this on their deity likely wouldn't be a cleric for long, with all the perks that entails (such as being able to activate a staff/cast a spell that negates said vampire's main weakness.)


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Note of course that a vampire cleric who pulled something like this on their deity likely wouldn't be a cleric for long, with all the perks that entails (such as being able to activate a staff/cast a spell that negates said vampire's main weakness.)
    Any cleric in general would hesitate to abandon their god, I would imagine. But he could have found another deity (one whose plans for the week did not include annihilating the world) to pray to instead.

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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No. The only reason this one had a goal was because, as a high level priest, he is in direct communication with the deity that created him, and therefore Hel took personal interest in him. Still, he is free-willed. He could have chosen to not communicate with her at all.
    Interesting! I was reading the replies and I'm wondering why Hel wouldn't use Durkula to immediately turn the entire Order (and the crew of the Mechane!) granting her a party of high level servants. This seems like one of the easiest ways to make it to the Godsmoot, given that they initially trusted him enough to leave him alone on a ship full of potential targets. Why didn't he do this?
    Last edited by Remagamer; 2015-11-19 at 02:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remagamer View Post
    Interesting! I was reading the replies and I'm wondering why Hel wouldn't use Durkula to immediately turn the entire Order (and the crew of the Mechane!) granting her a party of high level servants. This seems like one of the easiest ways to make it to the Godsmoot, given that they initially trusted him enough to leave him alone on a ship full of potential targets. Why didn't he do this?
    Because vampires are (comparatively) ten a penny. What Hel needs is not vampires, but high-level clerics. Her issue is that since all her servants are undead, every priest she has ever had is quickly killed by roving adventurers as a low-level boss, before they gain enough power. They were also in a hurry to get to the godsmoot, so they didn't have the time to create a bunch of vampires the HPoH would then need to protect from sunlight as they traveled at top speed to the meeting. This is even before going into who all those people worship - some might be southerners or easteners that would not get Hel vampire spirits.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2015-11-19 at 02:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant & Yendor View Post
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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    For whatever it's worth, Durkula (the negative energy spirit) came from Hel because Durkon is a dwarf, not because he's a believer in the Northern Pantheon. "Nergal's snake may have sired you, but the dwarves fall under my purview. Your dark spirit was born in my hall."

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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Remagamer View Post
    Interesting! I was reading the replies and I'm wondering why Hel wouldn't use Durkula to immediately turn the entire Order (and the crew of the Mechane!) granting her a party of high level servants. This seems like one of the easiest ways to make it to the Godsmoot, given that they initially trusted him enough to leave him alone on a ship full of potential targets. Why didn't he do this?
    To turn a party of high-level adventurers you need to kill a party of high-level adventurers first. Which is by no means the easiest thing. See the most recent ~15 strips as an example. Even Belkar has got a surprise up his sleeve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Because vampires are (comparatively) ten a penny. What Hel needs is not vampires, but high-level clerics. Her issue is that since all her servants are undead, every priest she has ever had is quickly killed by roving adventurers as a low-level boss, before they gain enough power. They were also in a hurry to get to the godsmoot, so they didn't have the time to create a bunch of vampires the HPoH would then need to protect from sunlight as they traveled at top speed to the meeting. This is even before going into who all those people worship - some might be southerners or easteners that would not get Hel vampire spirits.

    Grey Wolf
    Some good points! I suppose it really doesn't matter now that Hel's got Durkula, a few extra pieces are largely irrelevant to her plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitzclowningham View Post
    For whatever it's worth, Durkula (the negative energy spirit) came from Hel because Durkon is a dwarf, not because he's a believer in the Northern Pantheon. "Nergal's snake may have sired you, but the dwarves fall under my purview. Your dark spirit was born in my hall."
    Technically true, but it extends to all Northern creatures, dwarven or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    She got involved because she is also, separately, the Northern deity of undeath, and one of her "duties" is making the evil spirits for all Northern vampires.
    It just so happens all dwarves are Northern creatures.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Technically true, but it extends to all Northern creatures, dwarven or not.

    It just so happens all dwarves are Northern creatures.
    Or vice versa: Durkula should be Nergal's, but dwarves are all Hel's. Malack just wasn't aware of that, because he met a few dwarves in his (un)life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by obaryb View Post
    Or vice versa: Durkula should be Nergal's, but dwarves are all Hel's. Malack just wasn't aware of that, because he met a few dwarves in his (un)life.
    To add to this, Durkon had to explain Hel's role in the pantheon to Malack, and the fact that none of the dwarves actually worship/like her.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2015-11-20 at 11:51 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Technically true, but it extends to all Northern creatures, dwarven or not.

    It just so happens all dwarves are Northern creatures.
    Thanks for this. Don't know how I missed it.

    I was working under the assumption that both Malack and Durkon were special cases. The former, because he worshipped a death god, and the latter because he was a Dwarf. I never considered that Malack worshiped Nergal *because* he was a vampire. Likewise, I thought Hel's involvement with Durkon's vampirism was due to her unique relationship with the dwarves (getting only the dwarves' dishonored dead, for a starter) rather than her being in charge of them all. Guess I always thought of it like a negative energy disease rather than a divine manifestation.

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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    Assuming they would have been followers of Hel, rather than just evil vampires, it's a risk reward analysis. If Darkon manages to turn the order there are more high level followers of Hel, but if he fails Hel won't get another high priest in time for her god moot plans, which are extremely important to her. Now, between the crew on dog watch, the general paranoia of adventuring characters, the senses of the animals on board (Scruffy as a cat is probably up and about during much of the night, and I wouldn't be surprised if Scruffy XL or Blackwing joined him for part of it), the extra suspicion of Belkar and any contingencies V as a high level wizard who got screwed with by Belkar one time too many probably has (or by all means should have), let's say Durkula could turn both Roy and Haley before being noticed (or even Roy and V, if we want to be really generous). This would be a good score, there's plenty of ways to fail before killing even one of them. They would now be equal in numbers to the rest of the order, but two of them would be thralls in need of explicit orders, and they're on a ship flown by people who are not in any way friendly to their cause. If the situation gets really bad they might throw the whole ship into a screaming descent and abandon it by means of parachute. Durks could cast wind walk, but as pretty much stated in the comic he wouldn't get to the moot in time. That's a pretty big risk to take.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2015-11-20 at 12:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Any cleric in general would hesitate to abandon their god, I would imagine. But he could have found another deity (one whose plans for the week did not include annihilating the world) to pray to instead.

    Grey Wolf
    While this is true, it has an additional hurdle - he starts out in Hel's camp by default (as she was the source of his soul) and so switching deities would likely involve falling and needing an atonement spell, even if he went to a different evil deity altogether. As an Ex-Cleric, making the journey to find a representative of another faith that could restore his powers by proxy would be far more difficult, if only because he'd be doing so without the benefit of any of his magic and unmitigated vampire weaknesses.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    In Strip 1007 the vampire spirit says that he's so willing to carry out Hel's plan because he's shaped by Durkon's worst moments, during which Durkon was angry at his fellow Dwarves. He goes on to say someone with a different worst point in their lives might have other motivations. That said, I wonder what the worst moment of the lizardfolk shaman who was possessed by the vampire Malack was. From what we know of Malack, I would guess it's something that made the shaman feel primitive, helpless, and insignificant. Hence Malack's derision of his host's life as being an "ignorant barbarian" and his desire to found a great empire of Nergal. In response to the original poster's pondering, I wonder what Roy's lowest point was. I'm probably forgetting something, but I think the closest we've seen for Roy is when he comes close to giving up after receiving news of Durkon's death. Most times when Roy is upset, it's in the form of ass-kicking fury.

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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enero Irontoad View Post
    I wonder what Roy's lowest point was.
    Abandoning Elan to the bandits Elan wouldn't have run into if they wouldn't have gone on a side quest to get starmetal for Roy's sword?
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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Abandoning Elan to the bandits Elan wouldn't have run into if they wouldn't have gone on a side quest to get starmetal for Roy's sword?
    That was certainly a low point for Roy, characterwise, but I don't think it is what a vampire spirit would use as its starting point.
    Before Durkon was vamped I would have said that Eric's death was Roy's darkest moment. Now, it is either that, loosing Durkon or a combination of both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enero Irontoad View Post
    In response to the original poster's pondering, I wonder what Roy's lowest point was.
    Probably his brother's death
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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    These quotes from Rich are interesting... So that means that Durkula, too, didn't start off as the High Priest of Hel. I wonder at exactly which point the choice of following Hel was made, since we never saw any communication between Hel and Durkule when he wasn't her cleric yet.

    It also means that Durkula was possibly actually casting spells as a deity-less cleric for a while, or maybe even as a cleric of Nergal, when he was directly under Malack's control.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    That was certainly a low point for Roy, characterwise, but I don't think it is what a vampire spirit would use as its starting point.
    Before Durkon was vamped I would have said that Eric's death was Roy's darkest moment. Now, it is either that, loosing Durkon or a combination of both.
    Now I'm wondering about what The Order's collective worst moments are. Presumably V's is selling his/her soul?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remagamer View Post
    Now I'm wondering about what The Order's collective worst moments are. Presumably V's is selling his/her soul?
    I would think so. This or the resulting fallout of the Soulsplice, The others are less easy to determinate.

    Elan's worst moment might be realising that his father is evil (I can't recall anything else that would qualify. I doubt Vampire-Elan would be that different from normal Elan. Just more evil),
    Haley had her worst moment most likely during her childhood - loosing her mother perhaps? - or (I doubt it) during the time when she couldn't speak. I have no idea how a vampire with her memories would act.
    I don't think we know enough about Belkar, but I doubt there would be any difference beyond the need for a better sunblocker and the fact that his bloodthirst would be more literal.
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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    What do you expect from someone evil? Ulterior motives and evil go hand in hand the way a burger and fries do at McD's.

    PS: and if someone wants to raise the vampires as protagonists in Twilight and such, all I can say is Blade/Wesley Snipes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    What do you expect from someone evil? Ulterior motives and evil go hand in hand the way a burger and fries do at McD's.
    You missed a great opportunity to say "Evil & ulterior motives go together like peas and carrots"

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    You missed a great opportunity to say "Evil & ulterior motives go together like peas and carrots"
    Sorry, not on my A game today.

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    Default Re: Do All Vampires Have Ulterior Motives?

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    You missed a great opportunity to say "Evil & ulterior motives go together like peas and carrots"
    Wouldn't peas go better with more peas than carrots? I mean, they even come together in a pod. Hard to get closer than that.
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    Please, take it elsewhere. This is the "Celsius v. Fahrenheit" and "Argue Plot Points about The Phantom Menace" forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wouldn't peas go better with more peas than carrots? I mean, they even come together in a pod. Hard to get closer than that.
    Sorry but I gotta go with Tom Hanks on this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Sorry but I gotta go with Tom Hanks on this one.
    In that case, shouldn't the analogy be "like Forrest and Jenny?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Please, take it elsewhere. This is the "Celsius v. Fahrenheit" and "Argue Plot Points about The Phantom Menace" forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    In that case, shouldn't the analogy be "like Forrest and Jenny?"
    You're ruining my whole thing here!

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