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Thread: V vs IFCC.
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2015-11-26, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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V vs IFCC.
It might be kinda inappropriate time to speculate about this right now (Roy vs Durkula showdown and all), but still.
What if one day V decided that no fiend orders him/her around? What would be the chances if s/he actually took on them?
Let's assume that IFCC, as species, are more or less common types of powerful creatures found in their respective corner of Hells.
That leaves us with, say:
Spoiler
Cedric, balor:
Size/Type: Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Hit Dice: 20d8+200 (290 hp)
Initiative: +11
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 90 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 35 (-1 size, +7 Dex, +19 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 28
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+36
Attack: +1 vorpal longsword +33 melee (2d6+13/19-20)
Full Attack: +1 vorpal longsword +31/+26/+21/+16 melee (2d6+13/19-20) and +1 flaming whip +30/+25 melee (1d4+6 plus 1d6 fire plus entangle); or 2 slams +31 melee (1d10+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with +1 flaming whip)
Special Attacks: Death throes, entangle, spell-like abilities, summon demon, vorpal sword
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +19, Will +19
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 25, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 26
Skills: Bluff +31, Concentration +33, Diplomacy +35, Disguise +8 (+10 acting), Hide +26, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any two) +30, Listen +38, Move Silently +30, Search +30, Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +30 (+32 scrolls), Spot +38, Survival +7 (+9 following tracks), Use Magic Device +31 (+33 scrolls)
Feats: Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (telekinesis), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword)
Environment: A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization: Solitary or troupe (1 balor, 1 marilith, and 2-5 hezrous)
Challenge Rating: 20
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items, plus +1 large vorpal longsword and +1 large flaming whip
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 21-30 HD (Large); 31-60 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —
Spoiler
Lee, erinyes:
Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 9d8+45 (85 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 23 (+5 Dex, +8 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+14
Attack: Longsword +14 melee (1d8+5/19-20) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +15 ranged (1d8+6/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +14 ranged (entangle)
Full Attack: Longsword +14/+9 melee (1d8+5/19-20) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +15/+10 ranged (1d8+6/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +14 ranged (entangle)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Entangle, spell-like abilities, summon devil
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +10
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 21, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 20
Skills: Concentration +17, Diplomacy +7, Escape Artist +17, Hide +17, Knowledge (any two) +14, Listen +16, Move Silently +17, Search +14, Sense Motive +16, Spot +16, Survival +4 (+6 following tracks), Use Rope +5 (+7 with bindings)
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run
Environment: A lawful evil-aligned plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: Standard, plus rope and +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus)
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 10-18 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: +7
Spoiler
Nero, destradoloth:
Size/Type: Large Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Yugoloth)
Hit Dice: 20d8+160 (250 hp)
Initiative: +12
Speed: 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 44 (-1 size, +4 armor, +8 dex, +23 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 36
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+37
Attack: +2 Keen Unholy Vilebone Scythe +35 melee (2d6+29 plus 1d6 unholy plus 1 vile, 19-20/x4) or claw +33 melee (2d8+13, 20x2)
Full Attack: +2 Keen Unholy Vilebone Scythe +35 melee (2d6+29 plus 1d6 unholy plus 1 vile, 19-20/x4) and 2 claws melee +33 (2d8+13, 20x2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, summon yugoloth
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/good and adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., flight, gray aura, immunity to acid and poison, resistance cold/elec/fire 10, regeneration 5, spell resistance 32, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +20, Will +20
Abilities: Str 37, Dex 27, Con 27, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 26
Skills: Appraise +31, Bluff +31, Concentration +31, Diplomacy +31, Disguise +31, Hide +27, Intimidate +35, Any Two Knowledges +31, Listen +31, Move Silently +31, Search +31, Sense Motive +31, Spellcraft +31, Spot +31, Use Magic Device +31
Feats: Power Attack, Hover, Cleave, Great Cleave, Ability Focus (Gray Aura), Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Bestow Curse)
Environment: Gray Wastes of Hades
Organization: Solitary, Pair, Team (2-4), or Troupe (1-2 Destradoloths, 2-5 Nyacaloths, and 2-5 Canoloths)
Challenge Rating: 20
Treasure: Double
Alignment: Always Neutral Evil
Advancement: 19-36 (Large), 37-54 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —
vs
, level 16 PC Evoker with medium-sized plot armor.
Let's presume that V has any amount of time to prepare, any amount of buffs (including potions) to cast on him/herself and Blackwing beforehand, can carry any amount of potions and/or scrolls/wands that his/her strength/bags/money allowing him/her, and manages to catch the fiends off guard (i.e., they never suspect that s/he might turn on them, have no useable items/consumables ready, and, say, have to waste a round to get their weapons from a conveniently placed armoire).
Also, the fight goes on in Hell (say, in that place where they all watched TV), movement is allowed in all 3 dimensions (i.e., flying or movement underground by whatever means), fiend truly dies only if it dies right there, IFCC members cannot magically summon each other, but can contact with each other by any other means as well as try to summon some reinforcements of their specific alignment.
Two possible scenarios: V takes on three of them (all unaware) at once or V picks them one by one. Let's also say that if s/he ever wins against one fiend, two others become alert.
V cannot rest to replenish spells, s/he must do it (or retreat) in one go.
Obviously, those CRs on some of the creatures state 20, but overcoming insurmountable is the whole point of both being a wizard and V.Last edited by ghoul-n; 2015-11-26 at 03:20 PM.
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2015-11-26, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
it would be fairly disappointing if the ifcc were no more than the most powerful type of fiend, unmodified. and they ca reclaim v's soul for a few minutes if they want.
In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.
Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you
my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert
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2015-11-26, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
I'd have thought Lee would be something more powerful than that. A Pit Fiend at the very least.
Though think they're more likely to be something on the order of a low level archfiend, unique and extremely powerful, but less so than, say a full fledged deity. If I was creating something like them as a GM, I'd probably start with a half-fiendish high level sorcerer and then then add/swap out some special abilities to make them more unique and powerful. But I'm a lazy sod.
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2015-11-26, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
V: I challenge you to three on one combat!
Lee:.... K. *yoink*
Cedrik: (on phone) Hey Tiamat, wanna know where that Wizard is gonna be for the next forty minutes?
Nero: Summon Fiendish Popcorn!I admit full culpability for Phyrnglsnyx
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2015-11-26, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
Yeah, I don't like V's chances here. Honestly, the IFCC do not strike me as the kind of villains you can foil via physical combat.
Fluctuat nec mergitur
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2015-11-26, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
Still, plane shifting a strike team to take them out is an interesting idea, and I don't think I've ever seen anything like it proposed before. Kudos for the originality.
It also raises the question if the fiends can extract V's soul to Baator when V's already in Baator.Spoiler
So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark
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2015-11-26, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
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2015-11-27, 01:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
Sometimes you have to just pay the price. V may indeed be pulled away at a critical point or two in the upcoming episodes, but it's up to Roy as tactician to figure out how to work around that problem. I'm wondering how Haley's wand exercises are coming along?
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2015-11-27, 02:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-11-27, 04:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
and they ca reclaim v's soul for a few minutes if they want.V will have to defeat the IFCC theVulcanElven way- with logic, ingenuity, and by using their own rules against them. Somehow.
I.e. if s/he catches one of them off-guard and blasts him hard enough, that fiend might be forced to invoke his part of the debt to get some breathing room. V's body will be invincible during that time, so s/he can just chill for a bit and run away afterwards.
(of course dealing with the dimensional anchors and whatnot should be thought of beforehand)Last edited by ghoul-n; 2015-11-27 at 04:08 AM.
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2015-11-27, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
I definitely can't see Lee being so much less powerful than the other archfiends. If Lee is CR 8 and the other are 20, Lee would be useless. They can't cooperate as equals. A relative weakling would have little or nothing to contribute. On top of that, a CR 8 ranking devil couldn't pull any strings with their own leaders, hence defeating the entire point of the IFCC.
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2015-11-27, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
The three of them are archfiends. If I recall correctly, every archfiend we have on record has been Epic challenge rating. V's good, but she's not THAT good, and three against one when the three of them have apparently refined their teamwork to an admirable extent? Banjo'd have a better chance of defeating Xykon, because the lich might at least be mind-boggled enough to hold off a round trying to process being attacked by a hand puppet.
In most stories where people manage to get out of deals with devils (and daemons and demons, in this case), there's usually two ways it goes. One, they get forgiveness from a higher power. I don't see the gods getting in on this; a literal Deus Ex Machina to let V off the hook would be narratively unsatisfying and, given V's desire for proper repentance, unlikely to be wanted so easily. The second and much more likely case is that V figures out either a loophole in the details or uses their own rules against them.
Something that stood out when Sabine was talking to V during the the pyramid was that Nero was the one that keeps the two of them working together. Normally, fiends are at each other's throats, and apparently the IFCC isn't immune if that's Nero's job. If V can get Nero out of the picture briefly (not likely through combat), Lee and Cedric might fall apart and defeat themselves.
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2015-11-27, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-11-27, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
Which raises another question; how many more plot critical moments will the story have? I've been considering this in the context of 'how many more opportunities are we going to see MitD before his big reveal?', as I'm not sure the absolute final for-reals showdown will be at Kraagor's Gate. If Kraagor's Gate is plot critical moment 2, where will the third be?
Unless... V is alerted to the vampire and gets yoinked, allowing Gontor to steal the Portkey and complete Hel's backup plan!I admit full culpability for Phyrnglsnyx
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2015-11-27, 03:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-11-27, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
Liliana Vess is an example of a powerful magic user going and trying to kill the demons they made a pact with to get out of it.
I think the OP is less about "would this ever happen" and more about "if for some reason this did happen would V stand a chance" anyways, but maybe I am misinterpretting it.
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2015-11-27, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
I like semicolons; they make me feel smart.
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2015-11-27, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-11-27, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
I don't know if they'd be beyond Xykon - they're not gods or anything. Most statted archfiends tend to have CRs in the 20s; the highest ones I've seen have generally topped out around 33 or so, and the IFCC aren't that (since we know that they're trying to impress the "lower-downs").
That's kind of a meaningless quibble, though, since I agree that they're not the kind of opponent to be beaten in direct combat.
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2015-11-27, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
This thread is forgetting that Plane Shift is a conjuration spell, which V cannot cast. So he cannot get to Hell by himself.
And I guess good luck finding a caster willing to send Hir there. Or to go with so V can get back.
I do have a question; can V's soul cast spells when it is separated from its body, such as when the IFCC next abduct V?
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2015-11-27, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-11-28, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
I don't think they're operating under the same rules.
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2015-11-28, 02:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-11-28, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
Which means Power Word Stun is probably the only effective spell V can cast when held by the demons.
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2015-11-28, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
Power Word Stun won't do anything to the fiends; they almost certainly have far too many hit points.
Wolfen Houndog - The World in Revolt (4e)
The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
The Nameless One, converted to 3.5 and 5e
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2015-11-28, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
The last time they had V fairly well secured. Unless s/he can cast by wiggling hir ears, (which seemed to be the only functional extremities s/he had,) Varsuvius doesn't seem to be able to do much of anything unless the Archfiends allow it.
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2015-11-29, 03:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-11-29, 05:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
Sabine talked about it right here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html
Maybe she's lied for whatever reasons, of course.
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2015-11-29, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2015-12-01, 04:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V vs IFCC.