Help to explain Monk + TWF

[Cyussu]

Not per say, he stated through RAW they didn't stack, because "It's a Full Round Action" not because of "They have only one Unarmed Strike".

[Rubik]

Not per say, he stated through RAW they didn't stack, because "It's a Full Round Action" not because of "They have only one Unarmed Strike".

As previously noted, TWF is a modification to the full attack action, as is flurry. They can both modify the full attack action simultaneously, like many other effects, such as Snap Kick and Knock Back.

[Cyussu]

As previously noted, TWF is a modification to the full attack action, as is flurry. They can both modify the full attack action simultaneously, like many other effects, such as Snap Kick and Knock Back.

^ This, THIS was the problem my DM had though. As he consistently said that they don't. This was the last straw as for why I left, not because he houseruled it, but because he refused to look up the actual rulings. Rubik, ilu. <3 :3

[ShurikVch]

As previously noted, TWF is a modification to the full attack action, as is flurry.

Since when?
Special Attacks:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

• If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
• The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.

Double Weapons
You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon were a light weapon.

Thrown Weapons
The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

Shield Bash Attacks
You can bash an opponent with a light shield or heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Shield Spikes
When added to your shield, these spikes turn it into a martial piercing weapon that increases the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you. You can’t put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.

An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

I can't see any mentions of Full Attack or Full-Round Action
For comparison, Flurry of Blows:

A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

[Andezzar]

It's explicit in the Rules Compendium:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack with that weapon when you make a full attack.

and not quite explicit in the SRD

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

Not associating TWF with the Full Attack is a whole other can of worms.

[ShurikVch]

It's explicit in the Rules Compendium:

Rules Compendium! Meh!!!

and not quite explicit in the SRD

Does it include multiple shots of Scorching Ray?
Bites of Hydra?
If not, then I don't see why stabbing with two daggers at once required to stand still for 6 seconds

[Andezzar]

Does it include multiple shots of Scorching Ray?
Bites of Hydra?

No. Both are specific exceptions.

Casting Time: 1 standard action
[...]
Duration: Instantaneous
[...]

You blast your enemies with fiery rays. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage.

The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all bolts must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.

Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.

If not, then I don't see why stabbing with two daggers at once required to stand still for 6 seconds

I agree it makes little sense, but so do a lot of rules. Feel free to houserule them however you like

[ShurikVch]

No. Both are specific exceptions.
SRD on Hydra

Actually, this line don't invalidate need to take Full Attack for multiple attacks
It's just allow to avoid -5 penalty for secondary attacks
And "if they move during the round", they have "no penalty" on attacks, because they don't attack at all

[Andezzar]

You missed the part that they get to attack "with all their heads". No heads or one head is not all heads.

[stanprollyright]

No heads or one head is not all heads.

Hopefully no heads is all the heads.

[ShurikVch]

You missed the part that they get to attack "with all their heads".

No, I'm not.
Nothing in that text cancel need in Full Attack in order to make multiple attacks

No heads or one head is not all heads.

So it mean Hydra is exclusively able only to Full Attacks, and unable to do "regular" Attacks

[Andezzar]

No, I'm not.
Nothing in that text cancel need in Full Attack in order to make multiple attacks

It does not, but it tells us that you can make an attack with all heads in situations, when you normally would only be allowed to make one. The rule does not tell us how that is achieved, but that does not matter because it is functionally identical whether the hydra can make additional attacks with a standard action or if the hydra is getting a Full Attack it would normally not be entitled to.

The charge part is interesting though. It does not tell us, whether this is de facto pounce or if you just get additional attacks (without the usual charge modifications and benefits).

If the rule meant you cannot make more attacks than you would normally be allowed, the rule does nothing, except telling us that the hydra has more than one primary natural weapon.

The "removal" of the penalty for secondary natural attacks is already covered by the normal rules for natural weapons, so it would not need that additional rule:

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry.

Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3)

Hydras with more heads of course follow the same pattern.

So it mean Hydra is exclusively able only to Full Attacks, and unable to do "regular" Attacks

Not quite. The Hydra is not required to actually attack with all heads.

[ShurikVch]

It does not, but it tells us that you can make an attack with all heads in situations, when you normally would only be allowed to make one.

In which words?

The charge part is interesting though. It does not tell us, whether this is de facto pounce or if you just get additional attacks (without the usual charge modifications and benefits).

Nothing of aforementioned - Hydra get no additional attacks (unless it get Pounce somehow)

If the rule meant you cannot make more attacks than you would normally be allowed, the rule does nothing, except telling us that the hydra has more than one primary natural weapon.

Hardly unexpected - just check the Dysfunctional Rules threads...

The "removal" of the penalty for secondary natural attacks is already covered by the normal rules for natural weapons, so it would not need that additional rule:

Yes, all heads are primary natural weapons; but it doesn't mean WotC couldn't repeat the rule one more time

Not quite. The Hydra is not required to actually attack with all heads.

I presumed, since stat-block don't give us examples of a singular attacks, then all attacks are full attacks
But you are correct - just because Hydra may attack with all heads, it doesn't mean "should attack with all heads"

[Necroticplague]

It's explicit in the Rules Compendium:
and not quite explicit in the SRD
Not associating TWF with the Full Attack is a whole other can of worms.

However, a Flurry of Blows is a type of full attack (specifically, one with an extra attack and -2 to hit on everything). Still works with TWF.

[Andezzar]

In which words?

It's been quoted before:

Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.

It does not say it can attack only with all heads it is normally allowed to attack with (which would be one after moving or during a charge), but with all heads, period. A hydra has 5+ heads, so it can attack with 5+ heads even if it moves.

Nothing of aforementioned - Hydra get no additional attacks (unless it get Pounce somehow)

See the quote above. It gets attacks with all heads if it charges during the round.

Hardly unexpected - just check the Dysfunctional Rules threads... Yes, all heads are primary natural weapons; but it doesn't mean WotC couldn't repeat the rule one more time I presumed, since stat-block don't give us examples of a singular attacks, then all attacks are full attacks

You keep ignoring that the rule actually says more than making all attacks primary attack. It tells us that the hydra can make more than one attack when other creatures would not be permitted to.

But you are correct - just because Hydra may attack with all heads, it doesn't mean "should attack with all heads"

I really don't know what you are trying to say here.

As to whether the Hydra always makes a full attack, I have to revise my answer to no, it just gets more attacks than other creatures. There is a difference. If hasted for example, the hydra does not get the extra attack if it moves or charges.

[ShurikVch]

It tells us that the hydra can make more than one attack when other creatures would not be permitted to.

No, it don't tell so, you see things
Rules system is permission-based; you can't do anything until rules says you can; since text doesn't say Hydra can attack with multiple heads without using Full Attack, Hydra can't do it

[Rubik]

No, it don't tell so, you see things
Rules system is permission-based; you can't do anything until rules says you can; since text doesn't say Hydra can attack with multiple heads without using Full Attack, Hydra can't do it

Uh... The hydra explicitly can. He even quoted the appropriate rules text. It says so right there.

Also:

Attack: 8 bites +11 melee (1d10+4)
Full Attack: 8 bites +11 melee (1d10+4)

[Andezzar]

No, it don't tell so, you see things
Rules system is permission-based; you can't do anything until rules says you can; since text doesn't say Hydra can attack with multiple heads without using Full Attack, Hydra can't do it

Then there can be no aquatic creatures either. They have all drowned already. There also can be no special abilities, as most if not all break the basic rules. D&D is an exception based ruleset. The hydra is one of the exceptions.

[ShurikVch]

Also:

"All statblocks are incorrect" (Dysfunctional Handbook)

D&D is an exception based ruleset. The hydra is one of the exceptions.

Except it isn't.
Text don't says something like "without using Full-Round Action" or "without using Full Attack", thus Hydra should do it as per general rule

[ericgrau]

It's right on top...

Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.

[Rubik]

It's right on top...

Which is backed up via the statblock, which I pointed out.

[ericgrau]

So what he's saying is that they must move and then use a full round action in the same round to do this and therefore they can't do this? Aha, what a trick to put that sentence there when it serves no purpose. Truly the writers wish to make even reading the rules a trap to deceive us.

Btw the TWF rules are explicit that TWF must be done as part of a full attack.

[Andezzar]

The general rule is

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

The specific rule is:

Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.

The exception is that the hydra gets additional attacks without having to use a Full Attack action.

If the hydra would have to abide by the general rule, it could never attack with all heads if it moves or charges during the round. This would be in direct contradiction to what the rule says.