I could use a little help with my new character of the rogue-ish persuasion.

[dehro]

Hallo...
I am set to play a rogue or something close to it and could really use a bit of help beyond being pointed towards the various handbooks, which I tend to be able to find on my own.

Spoiler: The limitations to the build

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Race: human (or something that automatically passes for human), with allowance for a template. I have already showed up in the campaign, so this is not negotiable. A template shouldn't cost more than one level, if any. Same goes for the race... I'd rather not end up at LA -2 for a template/race combo
Note: we play with XP penalties for multiclassing, so human is probably my best option. Level buyoff is not contemplated.
Alignment: from mercenary/neutral to good of whatever flavour, possibly not legal stupid.
Level: 12
Budget: 70.000 GP
Setting: a homebrew based strongly on faerun... The only things changing are the political and historical situation.
Classes allowed: all classes, no third party, no psionics and we all pretty much dislike monks to the point of making it a no go. Preferably no evil-only classes.
Spells allowed: any that is in the spell compendium or core books. Nothing from anywhere else that isn't there also.
Items allowed: any from the magic item compendium or core books. Nothing from anywhere else. No relics.
The rest of the party goes from opportunistic neutral to extremely good... (yes, we even have a saint template endowed paladin) Some of the players (including the paladin) will look for any excuse to have a cause for infighting within the party. Being suspected of being evil would almost certainly trigger that. Our fearless party leader is a cleric of Kelemvor with a short temper, which makes resurrection very hard or impossible to pull off.

Character role: He's been recruited under the assumption that he knows his way around the land/wilderness/dungeons and can function as the party's scout/guide and traps and locks neutraliser. He's basically a rogue with a few outdoorsy survival tricks up his sleeves... Probably skill monkey is the closest definition of his role.
I'm looking at the wilderness rogue variant, possibly a few levels of scout... Possibly some levels of prestige class with a suitable/unusual flavour.
What I am NOT looking for, and this is important, is a character that reeks of optimisation or who dips in half a dozen classes purely to qualify for that one elusive feat or combo. The build must be simple, two classes tops if not straight up one class... A single prestige class is allowed as alternative to dual class or as cherry on top of it. From experience, anything that needs to be argued that it isn't optimisation and that walks the line between RAW and RAI, will reek of optimisation to the other players.
Ideally the guy would be a master at making himself scarce/hide in the shadows or otherwise sneak up on or away from people. Since we routinely face big monsters who seem to come equipped with the ability to see the invisible, having access to invisibility may not be the answer to making him the master of sneak.
Since the role will make me prone to being sent out ahead of the party, I'd rather have high spot and listen stats and possibly, if feasible, some form of darkvision.

Combat-wise, I have no particular preference in terms of melee vs long range or the use or lack of magical powers (as long as focusing on either of those options doesn't take away from his main role, which is that of guide and dungeon crawl facilitator). Long range seems more suited to the character concept... That said the aforementioned creatures have a tendency to reduce the crap out of damage, so being able to fire arrows that deal 6/15 points of damage is probably going to make him look pointless... Unless his other talents more than make up for his lack of damage output. I am not particularly worried about playing classes from the bad tiers... With "friends" who up and leave you to die in the clutches of a big scaly monster (that literally just happened), I should probably either make myself self sufficient or just not get my hopes of survival too high, and just hide behind the pile of dead bards until my non combat skills make me useful again.

The beginning stats I am playing with are as follows: 16 16 13 13 11 7.
I figure the dump stat is going to be charisma, but I'm open to suggestions otherwise

Tl;Dr: I need help building an outdoorsy rogue who is good at hiding, mobile and can help with traps, maps and locks. It needs to balance between not being super optimised and not being cannon fodder. The spoilered limitations apply.

Any help with simple/feasible concepts or ideas will be appreciated.. Any help in the form of a spelled out build will be doubly appreciated.

[dehro]

Update: I'm looking at the dark creature template and the shadow dancer with interest... They seem to be doing similar things at different times and costs.

[nedz]

I wouldn't go Rogue/Scout since that would mean you have to meet two conditions to qualify for both sneak and skirmish.

Rogue / Ranger is a better idea: this gives you a number of options Ranger 2 gets you TWF or Rapid Shot obviously.

Rogue / Warlock is quite useful. Warlock 2 gives you a magical ranged touch means of delivering sneak as well as Det magic at will.
Also two least invocations, interesting choices include: All Seeing Eyes (Comp Lang, +6 Spot and Search), Baleful Utterance (Shatter - might be too OP), Breath of the Night (fog cloud), Call of the Beast (Speak with Animals and Wild Empathy), Eldritch Glaive (might be too OP), Leaps and Bounds (+6 Balance, Jump, and Tumble), See the Unseen (ee invisibility and darkvision), Serpents Tongue (Scent and +5 vee poisons), Spiderwalk (Spider climb and immune to webs).

And there's always Swift Hunter, but that normally requires movement optimisation.

[Chronos]

Shadow dancer is good only in a core-only game: It just costs you way too much, especially in feats. That's not such a big deal in core-only, where there aren't many good feats for a rogue, and where there aren't any easier ways to get Hide in Plain Sight, but when you go beyond core, there are both better ways to get HiPS, and more good feats available.

The Dark template is one good way of getting HiPS, but be warned: As written, the Dark version of the ability does not let you ignore the concealment requirement (which is the more important part), just the requirement of not being observed. This may or may not be an editing mistake; ask your DM what interpretation he takes.

Another good option is the Umbral Disciple prestige class from Magic of Incarnum, along with probably one level of Incarnate. Umbral Disciple does give concealment with its HiPS, along with a few other goodies, and Incarnate can get all sorts of boosts to skills (which stack with most other bonuses, as they're of the uncommon Insight bonus type).

And no matter what else you take, you absolutely must take the Darkstalker feat, from Lords of Madness.

[Val666]

.-. Go Swordsage :v

[dehro]

In terms of characterisation, I rate the dark template above the swift Hunter.
Incarnations, Umbral disciple and its requirements are a bit too complicated for my tastes.
Rogue warlock sounds interesting...

[nedz]

Rogue warlock sounds interesting...

You want 1, 2, 4 or 6 levels.
Less is probably more if you just want a rogue with a few tricks.
4 levels for an extra invocation and more UMD abuse.
6 levels for a lesser invocation and the ability to take Extra Invocation (least) as a feat.
You are displacing sneak dice with EB dice, which might be an issue in combat unless you go Eldritch Glaive or Eldritch Claws. Eldritch Claws is just a feat mind.

Rogue 10 also opens Special ability, which more than two Warlock levels will delay beyond 12th.

Do you want a Fey or Dark powers flavour ?

[dehro]

I'm thinking warlock 6, rogue 5, dark creature template... Or Warlock 4 rogue 7... Using Eldritch spear to put some distance between me and the target... Or a bow to stay away even further.
Either way I'd go rogue further up the ladder

[nedz]

PrCs are tricky, but this is an interesting build I've been exploring.
Rogue 1 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 3 — Rogue 2 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 2 — Rogue 3 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 1
Opens up Unseen Seer, which can be used to progress Warlock with skills and sneak dice.
2-1-2 is probably the best because Evasion and Det Magic

It's not terribly high OP, also you have Trapfinding twice so use a Rogue ACF.

More Beguiler would be a very different character.

[Val666]

I think the suggestion of Unseen Seer is very cool also with your idea of Eldritch Spear. You have roguish and arcanist flavour and you can snipe witu eldrith spear + sneak attack from a distance. With ways of increasing those two a good amount of damage can be achieved. You won't one shot the boss but you got melee (still capable with eldritch claws) nuke/battlefield control with spells. I find the sniping thing very funny. You can surely one shot commoners so imagine this: want to kill a corrupt mayor/president/important person? Explode his head with a snipe then move amd repeat.

[nedz]

Eldritch spear is good, but sneak attack is limited to 30' (without more work) which is also the range of Eldritch blast.

Ed: also just remembered that Beguiler 1 gives you Det Magic as a cantrip so you might not need it at will.

[dehro]

I can see how that would work but it really is one class too many, also, we already have a beguiler in the party and I'd rather not do the same.
No, I think I'll stick to something in the vein of my previous post, even though I know it's anything but optimised...
Now I gotta figure out how to not blow the feat progression, lol

[nedz]

OK

Feats: Precise Shot or not ? Two feats for +1/+1 or a -4 if firing into combat.
Do you intend to melle, is another way of looking at this ?

[dehro]

Precise shot, yes.. Also, I forgot to reiterate.. Wilderness rogue variant could be an option..
Definitely going to avoid melee and focus on long range and being useful beyond the fighting.

Uhmm.. Human dark template, Rogue 1, warlock 6, rogue 4...

[nedz]

I'd kind of assumed Wilderness rogue.

Also interleaving your Warlock and Rogue levels is better for skill allocations
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 (or +2) etc.
Able Learner could avoid having to do this ?
Feat timing might be more important though.

Deadeye Shot ( Player's Handbook II p78) will be useful to you then.
This requires BAB 4 which effects the timing.
This points to something like
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +2 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 to take Deadeye Shot at 9th

Extra Invocation at 12th leaving two feats open, or one if you take Able Learner.
Ed:
Nymph's Kiss is an option, especially if you were going for a Fey theme anyway ?

Ed: Oops got my numbers wrong there.
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 for Deadeye Shot at 6th
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 for Extra Invocation at 9th

[dehro]

Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 for Deadeye Shot at 6th
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 for Extra Invocation at 9th

this is where I tend to fumble my int rolls..
how do I progress in the first case to go up to 11th level? and how about the second?

edit: they're the same...
does deadeye shot apply to eldritch blast??

[nedz]

this is where I tend to fumble my int rolls..
how do I progress in the first case to go up to 11th level? and how about the second?

The second build follows on from the first.
Since the second has the number of Warlock levels you want - just add more Rogue.

So:
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +2; then more Rogue

Ed:
Do you know how much Int you will have ?
Do you know which skills you need ?
This will tell us whether you need Able Learner (Probably) or Nymph's Kiss (Maybe).

[dehro]

The second build follows on from the first.
Since the second has the number of Warlock levels you want - just add more Rogue.

So:
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +2; then more Rogue

you swordsage'd my edit, lol..

does the deadeye shot apply to eldritch blast though? (and for that matter all the talents geared towards archery)

[nedz]

does the deadeye shot apply to eldritch blast though? (and for that matter all the talents geared towards archery)

Yes

If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes a particular target, ...

It just says Ranged attack.

PBS and PS are fine also.

[dehro]

I'm thinking
able learner, PBS,

PS

Deadeye shot,

extra invocation (though this one is in doubt.. I'm going to focus mostly on the thievery stuff and would like to see if there's something that is possibly of use in that department, albeit not necessarily for combat... though I admit that there are a bunch of least invocations that could supplement the rogue-ish abilities).

[nedz]

Extra invocation is a good feat, but:

Work out what invocations you want: One lesser, three least.

Compare what your fourth choice of least invocation would be with other feats.

It is possible to buy Essences and Shapes via Rods of Eldritch Power (CMage p127). Eldritch Spear could be bought for 4,000 gp

[Troacctid]

The Darkness invocation lets you get Hide in Plain Sight as a feat (Blend into Darkness, from Drow of the Underdark), which could be better than taking a template.

I'd definitely recommend Obtain Familiar as a feat. It is very good on skillful characters because the familiar shares all your skill ranks, meaning it can aid you on your checks to give you +2 to everything, roll its own separate check to essentially let you roll twice and take the better result, or make a check remotely while you're standing across the room. It's also useful to have a buddy who can move your magical darkness around—you want it covering your allies, but not your enemies, and sometimes that takes some finagling. Also, familiars often have scent or other perceptive abilities, which is great.

[Curmudgeon]

Setting: a homebrew based strongly on faerun... The only things changing are the political and historical situation.

Have you looked at the Faerûn-specific version of Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave on page 152? It's superior to the regular version.

[dehro]

Have you looked at the Faerûn-specific version of Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave on page 152? It's superior to the regular version.

The one with Hips? That's the one I'm looking at, yes.

Familiar is appealing but would encounter disapproval from the DM if it was any of the very useful ones, and not taking one of those makes it rather pointless to begin with.

Getting the extra Invocations by means of rods and wands is something I'm already looking into... So That would leave me with one potential feat to allocate... Any suggestion?

[Andezzar]

The one with Hips? That's the one I'm looking at, yes.

They both give HiPS, but the one in Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave is Supernatural and removes the need for concealment. The one in ToM is Ex but does not remove the need for concealment. Both versions don't work in sunlight.

Either way, make sure you have a way to get back to the material plane. Once the template is applied you are considered extraplanar on the material plane and the plane of shadow your home. Dismissal and banishment can be used by NPCs too.

[nedz]

Getting the extra Invocations by means of rods and wands is something I'm already looking into... So That would leave me with one potential feat to allocate... Any suggestion?

Darkstalker and Craven are always popular.

Improved Precise Shot, Woodland Archer and Able Sniper are possible — but probably not worth it.

Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion or Law Devotion are good.

Martial Study, Wild Talent or Bind Vestige — if you want to grab something from a differernt sub-system.

and there's always Improved Initiative.

Any ideas about your invocations ?

If you are going for flight you should look at Fly-by-attack

[Curmudgeon]

Darkstalker and Craven are always popular.

Generally if you're emphasizing stealth then Darkstalker would give you more benefit. If you've got both a high probability of making sneak attacks and a high critical likelihood (using a keen rapier as your main weapon, for example) then go for Craven because its non-dice sneak attack bonus gets multiplied on critical hits.

[Troacctid]

Familiar is appealing but would encounter disapproval from the DM if it was any of the very useful ones, and not taking one of those makes it rather pointless to begin with.

Most familiars are useful. I doubt your DM would object to a bat, rat, owl, raven, or weasel. If you dig into splatbooks, you get more options like arctic foxes, gyrfalcons, huitzils, horned lizards, and albatrosses, but they're not better than the core ones, just different.

Of course, upgrading your familiar to a lantern archon, coure eladrin, imp, or quasit via Improved Familiar/Planar Familiar/Celestial Familiar is generally fantastic (the coure eladrin being especially great for sneak attacks, since it counters concealment and provides flanking), but you'd need 7 levels of Warlock to do that.

[nedz]

Empower Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast) is also possible, but +50% damage on only 3d6 3/day is probably not worth it (+5.25 average damage).

Now a Chasuble of Fell Power (CArc p148) adds 1d6 or 2d6 (for 8,000 gp and 18,000 gp respectively) is probably a good buy, but the feat is still only adding 7 or 8.75 average damage even with this.

Also at Warlock 6 you can't empower level 2 blasts, which rules out most shapes, e.g. Eldritch Spear is a level 2 invocation (CArc p 133) so you'd need to be level 8 to do that. The table is here.

Incidently I don't rate the Warlock's Scepter (CArc p145) because of the limited returns for 28,000 gp.

[Troacctid]

Incidently I don't rate the Warlock's Scepter (CArc p145) because of the limited returns for 28,000 gp.

Warlock's Scepter was reprinted in the Magic Item Comendium at 8000 gp, making it much more appealing. (It's basically a +1 weapon with a +1-equivalent enchantment.)