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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Because of panel 13. Blackwing hits on the idea of using the empathic link as though it had never occurred to him before.
    Because this time he's doing it consciously. He was doing it subconsciously before. Do you notice every time you breathe?

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Opposable digits, the ultimate racial trait.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Are we just lampshade hanging that Vulcans are just Space Elves now?

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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinazina View Post
    oh come on, is just the heavy sarcasm of V speaking! :) like in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html

    in the next comic you'll see that something will go worst, blackwing will send the proper feeling/message, and this is the development of our magical couple. V then can save the day on the last minute.
    I feel this comic is the proper setup to that, otherwise, blackwing will have just filed outside using the same porthole from where the mist-vampire is entered.
    Blackwing couldn't do that anyway; Gontor entered via the bolt holes on the porthole. Porthole's closed, and Blackwing still lacks thumbs.

    I agree about the likely course of events, though.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Thankfully, Gontor doesn't have any spell slots left (it's been an eventful day for him). If the Order finds him, he's toast.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Because of panel 13. Blackwing hits on the idea of using the empathic link as though it had never occurred to him before.
    Even if the sole difference this time is intentional, it still doesn't follow that V never checked upon him before. See my prior point about V discussing what Blackwing thinks vs what Blackwing feels. The former is only really gleaned from talking to him about it all.

    Sure, Blackwing could mention "that way he'll check up on me like he did earlier today" but that spoils the punchline at the end, IMO.

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    Now I acknowledge that it is possible that V never checked up on Blackwing even once. I just don't think it is that likely, iz all.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    confused Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    More than that, read V's line about Blackwing. He clarifies that Blackwing thinks there is an elaborate plot to steal his precious. HOW WOULD V KNOW THIS IF HE DIDN'T TALK TO BLACKWING ABOUT IT? The empathic link isn't that good after all. As this strip just showed.
    That seems to be the gist of this; the reader does not know how accurately the empathicization sends your thoughts; only that it isn't perfect. Due to how vague that is, it could be interpreted in 2 different ways:

    1. The empathic link is accurate enough that V could tell the difference between the emotions between the last one and the previous ones, if he wasn't a self-conceited jerk.

    2. The empathic link is NOT that accurate and V dismisses it due to the empirical evidence V has against Blackwings warning.

    Considering how vague the link is, I don't see V's reaction in this strip as damning evidence of V forgetting their past lesson.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    And? There is no difference between Blackwing wanting V to receive his feelings versus him being indifferent to whether V feels them. At least, not as far as what V receives.
    I'm not sure that's true, at least if you examine the feelings deeply enough. At the very least, V should feel the need or intent to be heard, which would distinguish conscious from unconscious communication.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Surely, yes. However, Blackwing doesn't believe his concerns are frivolous, while V does. This is the exact thing you're blasting V for, it sounds like. How is he supposed to parse frivolous from crucial when Blackwing broadcasts his consistent concern as crucial?
    Because conscious and unconscious broadcasts have to feel different. To use CoffeeIncluded's example, a breath I take in preparation to sing feels different from one that I take to keep me alive. It is more controlled, more directed. More muscles are involved, in different ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Now I acknowledge that it is possible that V never checked up on Blackwing even once. I just don't think it is that likely, iz all.
    Backsliding on a lesson supposedly learned is perfectly in character for V.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2015-11-24 at 02:34 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    no, damnit, the party needs that orb.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyTheNeko View Post
    no, damnit, the party needs that orb.
    He could give it back after he's done

    He could have also asked nicely beforehand
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I'm not sure that's true, at least if you examine the feelings deeply enough. At the very least, V should feel the need or intent to be heard, which would distinguish conscious from unconscious communication.
    Implying that Blackwing otherwise feels no intent to be heard? Have you seen Blackwing?


    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Because conscious and unconscious broadcasts have to feel different. To use CoffeeIncluded's example, a breath I take in preparation to sing feels different from one that I take to keep me alive. It is more controlled, more directed. More muscles are involved, in different ways.
    Im sure it feels different to you, but to a casual observer nobody is going to be able to tell the difference until you start singing. V doesn't get to hear the singing part.


    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Backsliding on a lesson supposedly learned is perfectly in character for V.
    Name one time.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I'm not sure that's true, at least if you examine the feelings deeply enough. At the very least, V should feel the need or intent to be heard, which would distinguish conscious from unconscious communication.


    Because conscious and unconscious broadcasts have to feel different. To use CoffeeIncluded's example, a breath I take in preparation to sing feels different from one that I take to keep me alive. It is more controlled, more directed. More muscles are involved, in different ways.


    Backsliding on a lesson supposedly learned is perfectly in character for V.
    Again, even if they always feel different and V, who is only just starting to pay attention and so might not be that practiced at noticing subtle differences between conscious and unconscious intent over the link, noticed, who's to say Blackwing didn't do that before? Which is more likely? A running gag playing off one of Blackwing's character traits when the strip hasn't had humor for several updates, or V reverting to old behaviors that s/he is over a book past? Especially when one of the comic's main points is on the merit of growing and changing.

    Dismissiveness isn't always callousness. And honestly I don't see the point in always assuming the worst of V.
    Last edited by CoffeeIncluded; 2015-11-24 at 02:42 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Implying that Blackwing otherwise feels no intent to be heard? Have you seen Blackwing?
    The thing that separates conscious from unconscious action is intent, so yeah. If his previous pings were unconscious on his part, he couldn't have intended to be heard.

    Im sure it feels different to you, but to a casual observer nobody is going to be able to tell the difference until you start singing. V doesn't get to hear the singing part.
    Ever been to a concert? An opera? A musical? It's really flipping obvious, actually.

    Name one time.
    Compare strip 679 to strip 684.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Because of panel 13. Blackwing hits on the idea of using the empathic link as though it had never occurred to him before.
    I read that as, "we don't mention the empathic link much (last time ten years ago, in strip 155??) and I need to spell it out for new and/or forgetful readers!"

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    I never realized that Blackwing is so genre savvy Still worried what the outcome will be, though.
    Last edited by OmnivorousOgre; 2015-11-24 at 02:46 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Because conscious and unconscious broadcasts have to feel different. To use CoffeeIncluded's example, a breath I take in preparation to sing feels different from one that I take to keep me alive. It is more controlled, more directed. More muscles are involved, in different ways.
    But Blackwing's not singing, to continue the analogy. He's breathing normally, just doing it consciously instead of automatically.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeIncluded View Post


    Again, even if they always feel different and V, who is only just starting to pay attention and so might not be that practiced at noticing subtle differences between conscious and unconscious intent over the link, noticed, who's to say Blackwing didn't do that before? Which is more likely? A running gag playing off one of Blackwing's character traits when the strip hasn't had humor for several updates, or V reverting to old behaviors that s/he is over a book past? Especially when one of the comic's main points is on the merit of growing and changing.

    Dismissiveness isn't always callousness. And honestly I don't see the point in always assuming the worst of V.
    Dismissiveness is always a sign that you don't think the other person's concerns are important. The "only just starting to pay attention" excuse is wearing mighty thin a whole book after V supposedly started paying attention. And the point about how good growth and change is can best be made by contrasting a person who grows and changes with a person who doesn't.

    The appeal to humor might carry more weight with me if I found Blackwing particularly funny. I don't. But that's just my bias.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Nappa View Post
    Are we just lampshade hanging that Vulcans are just Space Elves now?

    "My thoughts to your thoughts."
    Eh, I don't think it's so much lampshading as a coincidental reference. It's a Wizard/Familiar Mind Meld, not an Elven Mind Meld.
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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Cmonnnnnnn Bloodfeast
    At least now I can get back to enjoying my glass of elven wine in peace and quiet, without being called on to intervene in someone else's problems.
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    So much for V coming to the rescue.

    Time for the lizard to go T Rex on the vampire.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    The thing that separates conscious from unconscious action is intent, so yeah. If his previous pings were unconscious on his part, he couldn't have intended to be heard.


    Ever been to a concert? An opera? A musical? It's really flipping obvious, actually.


    Compare strip 679 to strip 684.

    Zimmerwald, what we know is that Blackwing has been calling for V over frivolous jumping to conclusions all day, and so V thinks this is just another instance of Blackwing doing the equivalent of whining, "Mommy, he's looking at me funny!" again.

    If this was any other character and their familiar, would you have the same conclusion? Or are you only condemning V for losing his/her patience because s/he is V?

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Dismissiveness is always a sign that you don't think the other person's concerns are important. The "only just starting to pay attention" excuse is wearing mighty thin a whole book after V supposedly started paying attention. And the point about how good growth and change is can best be made by contrasting a person who grows and changes with a person who doesn't.

    The appeal to humor might carry more weight with me if I found Blackwing particularly funny. I don't. But that's just my bias.
    ...

    So wait, you know the intended takeaway from the page (or at least know you aren't getting it) and are persisting with this argument anyway?


    V has good reason to think that Blackwing's comments are unimportant, and that's because Blackwing is a titanic ham who regularly does things like this, much to V's exasperation.
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  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Because conscious and unconscious broadcasts have to feel different. To use CoffeeIncluded's example, a breath I take in preparation to sing feels different from one that I take to keep me alive. It is more controlled, more directed. More muscles are involved, in different ways.
    Sounds like facts not in evidence to me. At least I have supporting evidence for Blackwing massively overreacting to events.
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  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeIncluded View Post
    Or are you only condemning V for losing his/her patience because s/he is V?
    Because V has called herself out on just this sort of behavior, and promised to behave differently. And now isn't.

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Sounds like facts not in evidence to me. At least I have supporting evidence for Blackwing massively overreacting to events.
    That's not fair. Scorched feathers would impede Blackwing's ability to fly, and if he were still wild, could have made the difference between life and death.

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Because V has called herself out on just this sort of behavior, and promised to behave differently. And now isn't.
    This is not the behavior that V has promised to avoid. V is not obligated to check on Blackwing every one of the many MANY times he gets worked up about something that he has gotten worked up about in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    That's not fair. Scorched feathers would impede Blackwing's ability to fly, and if he were still wild, could have made the difference between life and death.


    Seriously?
    Last edited by Keltest; 2015-11-24 at 02:56 PM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    in the immediate sense but what use is an orb of teleportation? i dont get why whatever they want wouldnt be here in the temple and anything important should be dimensionally shielded

    unless hes going to teleport and take hostages? but against a god a hostage is pretty useless
    The orb, as Durkula has mentioned, is for "Plan B/The Next Phase", which is Hel's back-up plan for if the Godsmoot doesn't go their way. As such, it's not likely to have anything to do with the temple (which is warded against teleportation in the first place).

    The most likely theory is that it would be used for the same reason the Order wanted it: to teleport to the last gate. If Team Hel can destroy the gate, the gods have to destroy the world anyway. Remember, that's the position of all the gods who voted no on destroying it now: not "No, we'll never destroy the world!" but "We won't destroy the world until all the gates are gone and we have to."

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    This is not the behavior that V has promised to avoid. V is not obligated to check on Blackwing every one of the many MANY times he gets worked up about something that he has gotten worked up about in the past.
    Exactly. I don't see much point in continuing my part in this since we're talking in circles and I have work to do.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: OOTS #1013 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    That's not fair. Scorched feathers would impede Blackwing's ability to fly, and if he were still wild, could have made the difference between life and death.
    ....thet weren't scorched. There was a smudge of dirt on three feathers. Not worthy of the icy talons of death.
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