An Illustrated Manual for Inflicting Violence: A Guide to Fightering

[ZenBear]

IMO Mage Armor EKs are viable but definitively suboptimal because it costs spell slots to cast and the 8 hour time limit will come up, so it won't always be just one slot per day. Still, there are advantages to weightless, invisible armor, especially in combination with a weapon you can summon to your hand from a mile away. Go in unarmed and unarmored, then when negotiations inevitably go south you have a fully battle ready EK in the space of a single round.

I would like to poll the forum, what spells do you choose as you level? Obviously Shield and Absorb Elements, but what else? RAW (if I'm reading it correctly) your non-A/E spell choice at level 3 can't ever be changed, so that's an important one. I read the spells section but I want to know what people actually choose, not just what options seem decent on paper.

[EvilAnagram]

I would like to poll the forum, what spells do you choose as you level? Obviously Shield and Absorb Elements, but what else? RAW (if I'm reading it correctly) your non-A/E spell choice at level 3 can't ever be changed, so that's an important one. I read the spells section but I want to know what people actually choose, not just what options seem decent on paper.

That depends. If you like to boost your Int, Tasha's Hideous Laughter stays consistently useful at all levels, especially when there's a lot of other melee characters in your party.

Find Familiar has been so popular in one of my groups that it's begun to be disruptive. A flying familiar can easily use the Help action to give you advantage on an attack, and he can do that every round.

Disguise Self is excellent as an infiltration or shenanigan tool, but it's no help in combat.

Those are the ones I have direct experience with that I think will be of the greatest benefit over the long term.

[Citan]

Hi! Thanks for the guide.

I read it very quickly so may have other says later, but I'd like now to discuss the two hot topics of the thread.

1. INT for Eldricht Knight.
I think we all agree that an EK with dumped stat is perfectly viable, no doubt on this.
With that said, I totally disagree on the opinion expressed here and there that it SHOULD be dumped.
As EvilAnagram said, it can be very potent, because the ability to put an enemy to be at disadvantage on a save is very rare.
Basically, what I can think of by memory is Portent from Wizard, Bestow Curse if it succeeds, and Arcane Tricskter while hidden.
Here you put disadvantage on a successful weapon attack which is your primary expertise.
The most obvious use-case of this is a Bestow Curse that you would inflict to prepare an ally's game-changing spell but you get it at 14. But even a Blindness could be a game-changer, or a well-placed Slow.

It's certain though that the true beauty of this ability emerges when multiclassing Fighter with any debuff spellcaster (take Sorcerer. Attack 2 enemies, twin polymorph them as ducks, squash them, have fun. No? :)).

Also, if you have a high INT, even cantrip can become useful as a basis. ;)

2. Mage Armor
I don't understand how this spell would be rated purple when Sleep is rated Blue.
Beyond the "expense" aspect of acquiring gear VS Mage Armor...
1. AFAIK, you CAN wield a Shield and benefit from it (Mage Armor sets base AC. Shield provides a flat +2 bonus). So no argument.
2. Mage Armor is great in situations where you've been stripped off (such as in prison, an occurence not so rare in an adventurer's life, or to avoid sketchy assassins during a reception ;)).
3. MA is in generally great for...
a) any Stealth build (DEX based)
b) any Ranged build (DEX based, both hands taken -bow- or need free hand -crossbow-)
4. And, more importantly, you can swap it for another spell when you feel it has become useless.

As for Sleep, it's great for a few levels but loses potency quickly, so will probably be swapped at lvl 5-6 also.

Hence, imo, Mage Armor should be rated at the very least black, maybe even blue for DEX-based builds. :)

[ZenBear]

That depends. If you like to boost your Int, Tasha's Hideous Laughter stays consistently useful at all levels, especially when there's a lot of other melee characters in your party.

Find Familiar has been so popular in one of my groups that it's begun to be disruptive. A flying familiar can easily use the Help action to give you advantage on an attack, and he can do that every round.

Disguise Self is excellent as an infiltration or shenanigan tool, but it's no help in combat.

Those are the ones I have direct experience with that I think will be of the greatest benefit over the long term.

I'm also asking about higher levels, how would you build your EK? If you were playing an EK from 1-20, what Abj/Evo spells would you pick up at which levels?

[EvilAnagram]

I'm also asking about higher levels, how would you build your EK? If you were playing an EK from 1-20, what Abj/Evo spells would you pick up at which levels?

For an optimized EK, I would probably pick Booming Blade and Minor Illusion for cantrips. If I wanted Dex, I'd just use a Dex ranged weapon as backup, otherwise I'd pick Fire Bolt for my third cantrip.

1st Level Spells:

• Absorb Elements - Defense and offense together.
• Shield - Duh.
• Burning Hands - Fighters don't have AoEs, so this is a great complement to your natural abilities early on.
• Magic Missile - Because sometimes you run into something that needs force damage.

2nd Level Spells:

• Darkness - Solid contingency spell.
• Scorching Ray - Again, the damage remains decent when you pick it up, and it complements a melee Fighter nicely.
• Mirror Image - Awesome defense without concentration.

3rd Level Spells:

• Counterspell - Because it will occasionally save your ass.
• Dispel Magic - As above.
• Wall of Sand - Control is nice.

4th Level Spells

• Banishment - An amazing save-or-suck that takes excellent advantage of the EK's features.
• Fire Shield - Is always awesome.

Mage Armor

I feel like I've made my feelings on Mage Armor known. It has its place, but in the long run you'll benefit more from just having armor and not needing to use a spell slot for AC every day, especially since there are so many ways to dispel it while armor tends to stick around.

Sleep

At later levels, Sleep is useful for taking a wounded nasty out of the fight long enough to deal with someone else. It's much more limited, I agree, but it has its place and is simply ridiculously useful at lower levels.

[Arkhios]

Thought I might post a build of sorts:

A player in my group (with my help) converted his Captain America build for 5e using Eldritch Knight and Tavern Brawler.
Throwing and hitting for damage with a shield is in my opinion an improvised use of a shield, and thus Tavern Brawler allows adding proficiency on the attack roll. Since Improvised Weapons can be treated like manufactured weapons (by RAW), Arcane Bond should apply on bonding with your shield. You can throw your shield, then summon it back with a bonus action. So, that's basically it. The whole concept needs 3 levels of eldritch knight and the possibility of using shields without penalty (barring monk MC for example). Beyond that it's your call for how you want to continue. Of course, if you plan to rely on armor instead of unarmored defense (Cap does use some sort of armor in the MCU so it's plausible), you could still take monk as your MC. Unarmed damage still increases and functions while wearing armor, as does flurry of blows. (though Arcane Bond competes with Flurry of Blows for BA so it's one or the other per round).


Another point worth noting (I didn't read the whole thread just to find if someone else had said it already, but...)
I would consider upgrading bard's rating for multiclassing, at least for Champion archetype. Even though Jack of all Trades grants you a bonus to checks with which you're not proficient with, the bonus is not proficiency bonus, it's just a bonus equal to half of it. RAW I'd say that Remarkable Athlete stacks with Jack of all Trades (and if you read it up close, they even it out. The other is rounded up, while another is rounded down), effectively granting you a bonus equal to your full proficiency bonus for specific checks. Especially handy with Dexterity checks, as initiative check is Dexterity check! You now have proficiency with Initiative. Go nuts with Alert feat, and possibly even with Protection style, making you incredible tank, especially with cutting words and/or vicious mockery (taunts)

[EvilAnagram]

snip

I like that build. I'm going to include ways to be Captain America in an update.

As for Bards, I think you're right. They're easily on par with Warlocks as a multiclass option.

[Finieous]

Re: Scout, they get few maneuver options, but that Defensive Duelist/Uncanny Dodge combo is pretty fantastic.

[djreynolds]

Re: Scout, they get few maneuver options, but that Defensive Duelist/Uncanny Dodge combo is pretty fantastic.

First off awesome guide, really cool.

And second, this scout maneuver is awesome.

[EvilAnagram]

First off awesome guide, really cool.

And second, this scout maneuver is awesome.

Thanks! And I agree that the Scout has decent maneuvers, however he lacks versatility in his selection. Still, totally viable.

Side note: if anyone has builds they think would be good for this guide, post them and I'll include them and credit you.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Thanks! And I agree that the Scout has decent maneuvers, however he lacks versatility in his selection. Still, totally viable.

Side note: if anyone has builds they think would be good for this guide, post them and I'll include them and credit you.

I feel Martial Adept fixes that problem quite well. Sure, you're blowing an ASI, but you're a fighter. You can afford to do that.

Also, I feel you might be overvaluing Heavy Armour Master a bit. It's very good at low levels, but 3 damage isn't that much at higher levels. It's still good, and definitely worth it if you have an odd strength, but it's a secondary priority to things like GWM or Shield Master.

[Specter]

Very nice guide.

Some things I found worth noting:
1) For the Hawkeye build, Martial Adept feels like a wasted feat: The Battlemaster can already pick his favored maneuvers from level 3, and eventually they will have so many that the feat will feel wasted.
2) Commander's Strike is also good for melee fighters that have ranged support. You may not be able to attack them, but the archer can, and meanwhile you're dashing to reach them.
3) I see you left out crossclass skills, was that on purpose?

[SharkForce]

martial adept is to get you an extra superiority die so you get to use your maneuvers more often.

[EvilAnagram]

I feel Martial Adept fixes that problem quite well. Sure, you're blowing an ASI, but you're a fighter. You can afford to do that.

Also, I feel you might be overvaluing Heavy Armour Master a bit. It's very good at low levels, but 3 damage isn't that much at higher levels. It's still good, and definitely worth it if you have an odd strength, but it's a secondary priority to things like GWM or Shield Master.

Both are good points, and I've made alterations, but I want to point out that after level 5 or so the creatures in the MM rely more and more on multiattack to deal scaled damage, and the feat provides DR to each hit. In one turn late game, it can block 12 damage from a single creature. That can easily turn into 30+ damage blocked over the course of a battle, which can keep you up and Fightering.

Very nice guide.

Thank you!

1) For the Hawkeye build, Martial Adept feels like a wasted feat: The Battlemaster can already pick his favored maneuvers from level 3, and eventually they will have so many that the feat will feel wasted.

An extra maneuver die is worth the feat, especially when you rely so heavily on them as in this build.

2) Commander's Strike is also good for melee fighters that have ranged support. You may not be able to attack them, but the archer can, and meanwhile you're dashing to reach them.

Good point.

3) I see you left out crossclass skills, was that on purpose?

Yes. That's how I've done it in all of my guides. The main method of gaining other skills is through the background, and choosing a background for any reason other than story is anathema to me.

[djreynolds]

I like heavy armor master because it isn't dependent on rage or lack of magic weapons like stoneskin. So its just -3 to all martial damage, not bad. And +1 strength.

I like the scout's parry, its like defensive duelist coupled with uncanny dodge. And precision is awesome for archers using sharpshooter.

[Ryuu Hayato]

Hi, I'm want to build a Samurai in D&D 5e, so I spend some time building one, but I have some troubles here. GWM is good, but versatile weapons doesn't seems good with it, you don't give the same damage of duelist and duelist can use a shield. I really don't know what to do. What do you guys think what should I do?

[ZenBear]

Hi, I'm want to build a Samurai in D&D 5e, so I spend some time building one, but I have some troubles here. GWM is good, but versatile weapons doesn't seems good with it, you don't give the same damage of duelist and duelist can use a shield. I really don't know what to do. What do you guys think what should I do?

If you want to use a versatile weapon then you should take Defensive Fighting Style. This allows you to freely switch between 1 and 2-handing your weapon without a loss of benefits. Get creative with how you use your free hand. Grapple checks (Samurai practiced Judo as an integral part of their fighting style), carrying a torch, hanging from a rope, etc.

[Ryuu Hayato]

If you want to use a versatile weapon then you should take Defensive Fighting Style. This allows you to freely switch between 1 and 2-handing your weapon without a loss of benefits. Get creative with how you use your free hand. Grapple checks (Samurai practiced Judo as an integral part of their fighting style), carrying a torch, hanging from a rope, etc.

The problem is that duelist will give +2 on d8 and a person can use a shield giving +2 ac, so he will have a better damage and ac. Duelist is really op.

[ZenBear]

The problem is that duelist will give +2 on d8 and a person can use a shield giving +2 ac, so he will have a better damage and ac. Duelist is really op.

It isn't OP. It's just good. Grappling is borderline OP, especially on a Fighter who gets 3-4 attacks per Attack Action, and can Action Surge. Check this out.

Besides, you're wanting to play a Samurai. I've never seen an image or read of a Samurai that used a shield. Don't worry so much about optimization.

[EvilAnagram]

Yeah, I'm with him. Optimizing is fine, but when it clashes with your concept you should stick with the concept. If you pick the Defensive style you'll be an excellent front line combatant with a samurai feel.

Of course, you could always pick up GWF and a glaive and style it as a naginata.

[Ryuu Hayato]

Hey guys, don't get me wrong. I don't have any plan to use shield with my Samurai. But, I'm thinking about another character using this optimize. I'm planning use Great Weapon Fighting.

I really don't see any avantage using Defensive Fighting Style, +1 AC is good, if you don't get any magical item on game. A normal shield guaranteed +2 AC, on the other hand a magical shield guaranteed up to +5 AC (shield +3).

My question is: what the advantage of using versatile weapon since duelist can have more base damage (3-10 versus 1-10) and can have better AC?

Thanks for everyone replying

[djreynolds]

Bounded accuracy has changed the game. The biggest change along with the ability cap. So you can get by with 16 in strength and dex. The difference is a +3 to hit vs a +5.

For me, a samurai will always be extremely MAD, almost encompassing the monk and barbarian and paladin and the fighter. I think what people want is the ultimate swordsman, I'm not sure if the historical samurai was this, he was also an archer, artist, horseman, philosopher, etc.

Honestly, the battlemaster or even the banneret could make for a good samurai build. More of a leader.

A kensai, is more of the ultimate weapon specialist. But a samurai would need to be well rounded IMO.

I think when making a samurai, I rolled up a 20th level human banneret 16/16/16/12/14/16 with GWM, inspiring leader, and resilient wisdom, its not optimized but formidable. And I would give him the history, insight skills freely.

Something like this, I would allow the use GWM with a longsword, or katana. Its not OP, it shows character investment.

[Firechanter]

Besides, you're wanting to play a Samurai. I've never seen an image or read of a Samurai that used a shield. Don't worry so much about optimization.

I think that's kinda the point. Of course Samurai didn't use shields. They also didn't use their off-hand to grapple, as far as I'm aware. The problem with such a "purely flavour" build is that it risks being quickly outclassed by any other melee character with more stringent picks - be it Sword&Board (Dueling), Greatsword (GWF/GWM) or whatever.

Versatile weapons really aren't good for much in this game. You'd never tailor your fighting style to using a longsword two-handed. It's just that in a game where you can't pick your own magic items but have to rely on random finds, you might sometimes be forced to using sub-optimal weapons. For instance, my GWM Pala had to use a Battleaxe +1 for several levels, thus being unable to use the -5/+10 attack, because we ran into lots of monsters that had resistance against nonmagical damage.

So, what to do? Well, maybe make him go TWF, that seems reasonably Samurai-y.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

You do realise Samurai used weapons other than katanas and other longsword-equivalents, right? You could have a Samurai using a daisho pair (two weapon fighting), a no-dachi (greatsword), or even a yumi (bow), yari (spear), or naginata (probably equivalent to a halberd in game mechanic terms). Really, any fighting style other than weapon and shield (they didn't really use shields, I think because Japanese metal really isn't suited for it due to Japanese metal being kinda rubbish) would work for a Samurai.

[Firechanter]

Really, any fighting style other than weapon and shield (they didn't really use shields, I think because Japanese metal really isn't suited for it due to Japanese metal being kinda rubbish) would work for a Samurai.

Wasn't it more of a "honourable vs. chicken" thing? I.e. "hiding behind a shield" would have been considered cowardly? After all, for most of history, European shields were also mostly made of wood and organic matter (hide or stretched intestine), except for the boss. And I reckon the boss was mostly made of simple iron, not steel.
I'm not even sure if the all-metal shield we know from such sources as the 3E equipment list has ever been a thing, historically.

But yeah, apart from that, basically any type of weapon could easily be fluffed as Samurai-style -- No-Dachi, Naginata, whatevs.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Wasn't it more of a "honourable vs. chicken" thing? I.e. "hiding behind a shield" would have been considered cowardly? After all, for most of history, European shields were also mostly made of wood and organic matter (hide or stretched intestine), except for the boss. And I reckon the boss was mostly made of simple iron, not steel.
I'm not even sure if the all-metal shield we know from such sources as the 3E equipment list has ever been a thing, historically.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't an honour thing (they did use some forms of shields similar to mantlets and pavises at some points), but looking closer the main reason seems to be the prevalence of two-handed weapons.

[EvilAnagram]

I really don't see any avantage using Defensive Fighting Style, +1 AC is good, if you don't get any magical item on game. A normal shield guaranteed +2 AC, on the other hand a magical shield guaranteed up to +5 AC (shield +3).

You vastly overestimate the chances of finding a +3 shield in 5e. It's extremely unlikely. A 20 AC in 5e is fantastic, and an 18 is damn good. If you have the Defensive style and nonmagical plate armor, you'll be in excellent shape through epic levels. If you have just a +1 armor, you won't need any other defensive abilities.

My question is: what the advantage of using versatile weapon since duelist can have more base damage (3-10 versus 1-10) and can have better AC?

The damage difference doesn't lie in the span, but the averages. The average roll of a d8 is 4.5. the +2 from duelist makes it an average of 6.5. A longsword-wielding Great Weapon Fighter deals an average of 6.3 damage, nearly identical, and he has a free hand to use grappling techniques/spells.

The damage output is nearly identical while the shield-wielder has much stronger defenses. This is one of the few times that D&D mirrors reality. If the +2 AC is important to you, then let your DM know and he might throw a Ring of Protection your way.

If you're going for pure attack power, use a greatsword with GWF is still viable (average damage of 8.33 compared to Duelist's 6.5) and flavor it as a katana or no-dachi.

So, yeah, versatile wepons are sub-optimal, but they're perfectly fine. Over the course of a game, the single point of damage you miss out on over dueling doesn't matter.

I think that's kinda the point. Of course Samurai didn't use shields. They also didn't use their off-hand to grapple, as far as I'm aware.

They absolutely did use their offhand to grapple. I am not aware of a single martial heritage that didn't use grapples, punches, and throws. Melee combat is a fluid art that involves taking advantage of any edge you can eke out over your opponent. No one in real combat hampers themselves in any way without being completely certain of the outcome.

Wasn't it more of a "honourable vs. chicken" thing? I.e. "hiding behind a shield" would have been considered cowardly? After all, for most of history, European shields were also mostly made of wood and organic matter (hide or stretched intestine), except for the boss. And I reckon the boss was mostly made of simple iron, not steel.

Samurai didn't use shields because their martial techniques come from their origin as mounted warriors utilizing two-handed weapons such as longbows and polearms. Katanas, when they were used in actual warfare, were sidearms. They were tools of last resort that people pulled out when their bows and naginatas weren't usable, so they were designed for use with both hands and not shields.

[ZenBear]

Just noticed you missed the spell Warding Wind from EE. What are your thoughts on taking it for an EK? The important bits being 10ft aura of rough terrain and disadvantage on ranged weapon attacks, at you and from you.

[EvilAnagram]

Just noticed you missed the spell Warding Wind from EE. What are your thoughts on taking it for an EK? The important bits being 10ft aura of rough terrain and disadvantage on ranged weapon attacks, at you and from you.

It's not a Wizard spell, so it's unavailable to the Eldritch Knight.

It's very good for a Fighter-Sorcerer multiclass, though.

[ZenBear]

It's not a Wizard spell, so it's unavailable to the Eldritch Knight.

It's very good for a Fighter-Sorcerer multiclass, though.

Ah balls that sucks. Maybe I can sneak it by my DM though...