Magic Initiate: A guide to an underestimated (and cool) feat

[ZenBear]

I agree in that DPS rotations aren't so important, but Shillelagh is a spell that does nothing outside of inflicting DPS. If it is harming your DPS rather than helping it, then it isn't much use at all.
And you might be right about the order of the rotation itself. I haven't bothered working out which is actually more efficient (and that probably largely depends on what level slot you are casting Spirit Guardians in). I just went with that rotation due to it enabling an extra action (having SW cast prior to SG means that you can use a bonus action while casting SW, otherwise your bonus action will be wasted on the round you cast SW), and it just seems more fun being able to do more things in a quicker amount of time.

First round cast SG as your action and Shalala as your bonus. No loss of action efficiency and you get SG running from round 1.

[Addaran]

Secondly, you have vastly overrated Shillelagh. The only class that could make use of it via magic initiate, is the Cleric. However, using it would lower a Cleric's damage potential to the point that it is a trap option that looks nice, but is really very harmful.
A Clerics usual routine if he wants to achieve DPR is:
Round 1: Cast Spiritual Weapon and attack
Round 2: Cast Spirit Guardians and attack with Spiritual Weapon.
Round 3+: Attack with everything you have.

A Clerics usual routine if he wants to achieve DPR and has to rely on Shillelagh is this:
Round 1: Cast Shillelagh and attack.
Round 2: Cast Spiritual Weapon and Attack
Round 3: Cast Spirit Guardians and attack with Spiritual Weapon.
Round 4+: Attack with everything you have.

Essentially, it delays all of your spell unloading by an action, which is even more harmful than it sounds. Most fights don't last very long, and by delaying your attack routine by a round, you are delaying it to the point where it is no longer economical to use it - Spirit Guardians is a terrible spell if you are only going to get one rounds worth of damage out of it. Without Shillelagh, you would get two rounds and it becomes a lot more worthy.

You seem to forget that Shillelagh cost absolutly no ressource. Your exemple might be true in a boss fight where you go nova, but you often won't want to waste multiple spells in one encounter, especially at low level. Shillelagh lets you do better damage all day long, while having more stats to put elsewhere.

Most cleric have a "+1d8 damage to one attack per turn". In those case, shillelagh is awesome, since you can "dump" str and dex while still doing damage. (or even if you don't dump those stats, your wis will probably be higher)

Aside from the cleric, anyone with great wis use can use it well. A Monk who's more interested in his stunning fist DC then damage for exemple. A ranger in a low-magic item game. It works well too if you want a character very resistant to mind-effect or very good with wisdom skills. (a dwarven fighter with a con/wis focus, wearing an heavy armor)

[Giant2005]

First round cast SG as your action and Shalala as your bonus. No loss of action efficiency and you get SG running from round 1.

You can't do that - if you cast Shillelagh, you can only cast another Cantrip that round.

You seem to forget that Shillelagh cost absolutly no ressource. Your exemple might be true in a boss fight where you go nova, but you often won't want to waste multiple spells in one encounter, especially at low level. Shillelagh lets you do better damage all day long, while having more stats to put elsewhere.

Aside from the cleric, anyone with great wis use can use it well. A Monk who's more interested in his stunning fist DC then damage for exemple. A ranger in a low-magic item game. It works well too if you want a character very resistant to mind-effect or very good with wisdom skills. (a dwarven fighter with a con/wis focus, wearing an heavy armor)

Those are fair points (except for maybe the Ranger - that one was a bit of a stretch).
There is a resource cost though, the lost feat itself is the expense. Using Point Buy, someone could have 18 Str/Dex and 20 Wis on the same level it takes someone (that isn't a variant human) else to get their hands on both the feat and capped Wisdom. It means for only 1 ASI more, you can have capped both stats, resulting in better skill checks, saving throws, and not losing a bonus action/blowing your unloading routine. Those are the things you are giving up for the sake of a single ASI, and I just don't think it is worth it.

[Addaran]

You can't do that - if you cast Shillelagh, you can only cast another Cantrip that round.



Those are fair points (except for maybe the Ranger - that one was a bit of a stretch).
There is a resource cost though, the lost feat itself is the expense. Using Point Buy, someone could have 18 Str/Dex and 20 Wis on the same level it takes someone (that isn't a variant human) else to get their hands on both the feat and capped Wisdom. It means for only 1 ASI more, you can have capped both stats, resulting in better skill checks, saving throws, and not losing a bonus action/blowing your unloading routine. Those are the things you are giving up for the sake of a single ASI, and I just don't think it is worth it.

Shillelagh would be the cantrip you cast after using SG. You can take the bonus action after and the cantrip only restriction won't matter cause it's a cantrip.

Rangers are martial that don't have access to magic weapon via their abilities AND are already using wisdom for class-stuff. ;)

True about those kind of ressource at character creation. I was thinking of in-game ressource once the character is build.
Hopefully you don't take magic initiate just for one cantrip, you'll have a 2nd one you want and a lvl 1 spell. Magic Initiate is best for variant humans, since you can't just exchange it for a +2 anyway.

Magic Initiate is rarely the most optimal choice, but it is a very fun choice that opens up new possibilities instead of just +1 to-hit/+1dam. In those case, you can still use 1/3 of the feat for a little bonus (even if it's just having a simple weapon that does 1d8 in one hand or for the magic part).

[Naanomi]

I love Shillelagh on a ranger; so many of their other abilities run off Wisdom you can really focus on it and master those skills. Shillelagh, Magic Stone, Healing Word has been on two rangers I've played (an Undead forcused Hunter and a Water Gensai Beastmaster

Also a good pick for a Hill-Dwarf Cleric in heavy armor... SAD indeed

[8wGremlin]

I'm partial to the arcane vhuman cleric.
MI:Druid. For shillelagh
And Arcane domain for booming blade.
Wearing medium armour

[Rysto]

Aside from the cleric, anyone with great wis use can use it well.

Ironically, anyone with a great WIS other than a Druid. The trouble is that Druids get neither an extra attack (while the Ranger and Monk do) nor any other abilities that add additional damage to a hit (which some Cleric domains do), so Shillelagh doesn't scale at all for them.

[bid]

Shillelagh would be the cantrip you cast after using SG. You can take the bonus action after and the cantrip only restriction won't matter cause it's a cantrip.

There's no such thing.

You cannot cast another spell on the same turn. It doesn't matter if you cast it before or after.

[Specter]

The beauty of Shillelagh is that it's free and uses a bonus action. It's an alternative for melee sword-and-board rangers to dump STR completely and make WIS the highest for awesome casting.

Besides, if you pick a druid 1st-level spell that is also on the ranger list, you can cast it with your own spells, and treat it as another learned spell, which Obad-Hai knows they need.

[Christian]

There's no such thing.

You cannot cast another spell on the same turn. It doesn't matter if you cast it before or after.

Just in case this isn't totally clear to everyone, let me rephrase & add a concurring opinion.

BONUS ACTION ... You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

(PHB 5E pg. 202)

Spirit Guardians is not a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action, so it cannot be cast during the same turn as a spell cast with a bonus action. It does not matter whether the bonus action spell is a cantrip or not.

[RulesJD]

Do not take the Druid spell list if you're a Cleric looking for Magic Initiate. You are infinitely better off going Wiz/Sorc (assuming you didn't completely dump stat both) and picking up GFB/BB/Shield/Absorb Elements (or Find Familiar).

Those two cantrips will next you massively more DPR at level 5+ and it only goes up from there at level 11+.

[Addaran]

Bid and Christian, yeah i was confused with the rules.

Since if you cast a (high lvl) spell as your bonus action, you can only use a cantrip, i was assuming that the reverse is true. If you cast a cantrip as a bonus action, you could use a high lvl spell as your action.

Though now i can see why the rule is not just "can only cast 1 non-cantrip per turn" since it would screw the reaction spells.

[Theodoxus]

Do not take the Druid spell list if you're a Cleric looking for Magic Initiate. You are infinitely better off going Wiz/Sorc (assuming you didn't completely dump stat both) and picking up GFB/BB/Shield/Absorb Elements (or Find Familiar).

Those two cantrips will next you massively more DPR at level 5+ and it only goes up from there at level 11+.

That's why I went high elf on my Life Cleric - got BB for free at 1st and MI [Druid] for Shillelagh at 4th (only had 1 level to struggle where the extra damage was movement dependent).

Sure, I only have an 18 Wis (we rolled) - and I got Dawnbringer (Sun Blade) in the Out of the Abyss game, so with my 14 Dex, Shillelagh is identical (though now I don't have to cast it...) I kinda wish there was a retraining option - +2 Wis would be arguably better than the 40 points of healing from Goodberry 1/long rest...

[RulesJD]

In all cases, improving your Wisdom does more damage than anything else for a Cleric.

More Wisdom = Higher save DC. For Spirit Guardians alone that makes a big difference in damage when calculated against how many enemies you'll be hitting with it and for how long (10 minutes is basically an entire dungeon if you don't short rest). This gets even more so when you start up-casting it, adding an extra 4.5 damage (d8) per spell slot.

It is even more important for Tempest Cleric builds that use Shatter/Call Lighting and maximize the damage.

[Christian]

Bid and Christian, yeah i was confused with the rules.

I think that one confuses a lot of people--pretty sure it made the Sage Advice column one month.

[Oramac]

First, great guide! I like the idea of a Fighter/Barbarian getting a few spells for kicks.

I would say I think you're being unnecessarily harsh on save damage cantrips. Sure, it's no-damage-on-save, but that's not any different than an attack cantrip that's no-damage-on-miss.

[Specter]

First, great guide! I like the idea of a Fighter/Barbarian getting a few spells for kicks.

I would say I think you're being unnecessarily harsh on save damage cantrips. Sure, it's no-damage-on-save, but that's not any different than an attack cantrip that's no-damage-on-miss.

True that. But AC is easier to assess in an opponent than their saves. At least without metagaming. As a 12-int Fighter I would never try to hit some full-plated dude with Fire Bolt, but his wizard friend looks like an easier pick.

[Oramac]

True that. But AC is easier to assess in an opponent than their saves. At least without metagaming. As a 12-int Fighter I would never try to hit some full-plated dude with Fire Bolt, but his wizard friend looks like an easier pick.

A fair point. Which brings up an optimization question: is there a table or something that shows a break point where a save spell becomes better/worse than an attack spell?

[Sillybird99]

What do you guys think about a Sorcerer taking mage initiate:sorcerer to increase his low spells known and get 1 more 1st level slot for casting shield or whatever?

[RulesJD]

What do you guys think about a Sorcerer taking mage initiate:sorcerer to increase his low spells known and get 1 more 1st level slot for casting shield or whatever?

It's a pretty terribad use of Magic Initiate.

Far better off going Druid to snag Guidance + Absorb Elements, or Wizard for Find Familiar.

Higher level sorcs can convert spell points so easily that 1 extra 1st level slot + 1 first level spell known doesn't cut it for a feat that could be significantly better spend on Elemental Affinity, et al.

[Sillybird99]

Ha good to know.

[bid]

A fair point. Which brings up an optimization question: is there a table or something that shows a break point where a save spell becomes better/worse than an attack spell?

It's 3 points.

A Dex14 wizard in mage armor has AC15, you need +4 hit to hit half the time.
The same wizard saves half the time against DC12, the same 8+4.

[SharkForce]

It's a pretty terribad use of Magic Initiate.

Far better off going Druid to snag Guidance + Absorb Elements, or Wizard for Find Familiar.

Higher level sorcs can convert spell points so easily that 1 extra 1st level slot + 1 first level spell known doesn't cut it for a feat that could be significantly better spend on Elemental Affinity, et al.

disagree.

the slot isn't super useful, but hey, it's something. certainly i would never recommend converting SP into spell slots unless you're seriously desperate, in any event, so i don't consider the ability to convert SP into spell slots to be a reason to not pick up a bit more in the way of spell slots. metamagic (and the sorcery points you use to access metamagic) is the only reason to play a sorcerer in the first place.

but most importantly, that spell known is gold for a sorcerer. that isn't a level 1 spell known, either. it's a level whatever the heck you want spell known. because you know shield (or whatever level 1 spell) via magic initiate, you can replace the level 1 spell you would otherwise know with a spell of whatever other level you can cast. for a sorcerer, 1 extra spell known is very nice. yeah, it needs to be level 1... but the spell known it's replacing can become any level.

now, if your sole purpose is to nuke as a sorcerer, that level 1 slot may be relatively minimal. but you could still pick up something good from that extra spell known.

[RickAllison]

This guide got me thinking about a non-optimized fighter using this feat. The banneret focuses on Charisma, so taking MI: Warlock would give Magic Stone as a Charisma-based cantrip that worked with Extra Attack. With a house-rule that the number of magic pebbles can increase with level, we have a fighter reliant almost solely on Charisma.

15/8/16/8/8/16, variant human with MI

Take Intimidation as a class skill and Deception and Performance through background and you have a party face in heavy armor. I kind of like the idea...

[Specter]

This guide got me thinking about a non-optimized fighter using this feat. The banneret focuses on Charisma, so taking MI: Warlock would give Magic Stone as a Charisma-based cantrip that worked with Extra Attack. With a house-rule that the number of magic pebbles can increase with level, we have a fighter reliant almost solely on Charisma.

15/8/16/8/8/16, variant human with MI

Take Intimidation as a class skill and Deception and Performance through background and you have a party face in heavy armor. I kind of like the idea...

Could work. I personally would take Eldritch Blast because it's a cantrip, and I think Magic Stone is the lamest thing ever.

[Nifft]

This is a good resource, but it could be better, so I'm replying here even though it's old. Hope that's okay.

Scouts

Message - This is brilliant on a scout. Every Rogue and Ranger should consider snagging this. Being able to communicate with your artillery while hidden is a key aspect of modern dungeon warfare.

Minor Illusion - This is also brilliant on a scout. Every Rogue and Ranger should consider also snagging this. Communication + misdirection allows you to set up ambushes and otherwise capitalize on superior information. Remember that miscommunication kills, so make sure it's pointed at the other guys.

Round out the package with Disguise Self.

[Addaran]

This is a good resource, but it could be better, so I'm replying here even though it's old. Hope that's okay.

Scouts

Message - This is brilliant on a scout. Every Rogue and Ranger should consider snagging this. Being able to communicate with your artillery while hidden is a key aspect of modern dungeon warfare.

Minor Illusion - This is also brilliant on a scout. Every Rogue and Ranger should consider also snagging this. Communication + misdirection allows you to set up ambushes and otherwise capitalize on superior information. Remember that miscommunication kills, so make sure it's pointed at the other guys.

Round out the package with Disguise Self.

Minor Illusion is also great to use as a kind of hologram to show them what you scouted. (the monster looked like "this", there was this symbol, the rough map of the room is like this, etc)

[Zene]

Great idea for a guide. And nice job on it.

MI is so much fun, and so flavorful, that I get the urge to take it on every character I build. (I do successfully resist on a lot of them).

I still get weird looks when people realize I took MI: Druid on my Life Cleric / Wizard tank. But Shillelagh and Thorn Whip take that character's front-line and tanking skills to new levels, and 40 extra healing per day via Goodberry (that my teammates can even use to revive me if I happen to get dropped) is amazing. IMO, there is no other feat I could have taken as a variant human that would have even come close to being as useful for him.

A few thoughts on the guide:

• Thorn whip is amazing (at least for cleric tanks). A wisdom-based 30' melee spell attack that can pull enemies off squishies (meaning they can move away without provoking OAs) and/or pull them next to you (so if they go for the squishies again they'll provoke an OA from you). I've even used it, standing behind a couple melee-ers, to pull an enemy to them -- again now it can't go for the ranged attackers without taking a couple of OA's.
• Despite some of the comments in this thread, I do not find mold earth to be useful. Maybe it's because I play AL, but most DMs focus on the "loose earth" part of the spell description, and interpret that literally. Which means it's never useful for tunneling. Maybe if you're on a beach, I guess, or need to excavate a very-freshly-dug grave. And setting up difficult terrain or fortifications would be awesome, if you ever were in a place that you knew a battle was coming to you in the next hour and you had time to set up... but again, that's never happened. And hunter's traps/caltrops/ball bearings do pretty much the same thing, and wouldn't require you giving up a cantrip slot.
• I'm kind of surprised that the ranged attack cantrips aren't rated higher. For classes that don't have much in the way of scaling ranged damage (paladins, monks, barbarians), having an option that scales in damage every few levels seems like it'd be great, in those situations where you just can't get close -- even if it's just as you're closing in the first round. To be fair, I haven't played those classes much, so I may be missing something obvious here.
• A note on Bless vs. Hex: If you're a multiattacker with Sharpshooter/GWM, I believe Bless is a better boost to your dpr than Hex. I don't have the math handy, but if someone wants to double-check go for it. Otherwise I think Hex wins out. But going MI cleric for bless means you also get to take guidance, which is just sooo amazing.

[Zene]

Oh and to the folks discussing whether Shillelagh is a dpr-killing trap option for a melee cleric, in my experience it's only a very slight decrease - basically you sacrifice 1 attack of spiritual weapon each fight, in return for being much less MAD.

Here's how a fight typically goes for me:
If there are a lot of targets: Round 1 I cast spirit guardians and close in to melee distance. Round 2 I cast shillelagh and booming blade/greenflame blade (or thorn whip or sacred flame if I'm still closing). Round 3 I cast spiritual weapon and booming blade/greenflame blade. Subsequent rounds are attacking with spiritual weapon and booming/gfb.
If there are few targets or I want to conserve resources: Round 1 I cast shillelagh and booming/gfb (or thorn whip or sacred flame if I'm still closing). Round 2 I cast spiritual weapon and booming/gfb. Subsequent rounds are attacking with spiritual weapon and booming/gfb.

So in other words, I use one round's bonus action to cast shillelagh in which I'd otherwise be casting spiritual weapon, one round early. (And in those occasional situations where I have time to prepare, I pre-cast shillelagh anyway, so there's no actual loss). As a wis-based cleric with booming blade, the extra dpr and enemy lockdown I get from being able to do booming blade attacks with wisdom instead of str far outstrips the damage from one extra round of spiritual weapon. I suppose for short fights, at some levels, upcasting spiritual weapon might win out... but for short fights, I doubt I'd want to use a high-level slot on spiritual weapon anyway.

Yes, this build does require a cleric with access to both shillelagh and booming blade. I did it by taking magic initiate and 1 level of wizard, but you could also do it by being a variant half-elf, a high elf, a nature cleric, or an arcana cleric; combining any of those with Magic Initiate would save you the wizard level (but you'd be making other tradeoffs as well).

At level 6 I find I'm out-dpr-ing most of the party, tanking just about as well as the fighters, and have the option at any time to switch over my bonus actions or regular actions to heal. Having goodberries on-hand, and the life cleric's channel divinity, means I can even do healing word and a non-spell heal with my action if things get really dire.

[Nifft]

[*]A note on Bless vs. Hex: If you're a multiattacker with Sharpshooter/GWM, I believe Bless is a better boost to your dpr than Hex. I don't have the math handy, but if someone wants to double-check go for it. Otherwise I think Hex wins out. But going MI cleric for bless means you also get to take guidance, which is just sooo amazing. [/LIST]

Bless can be maintained by anyone.

If you're a Fighter with 2 to 4 attacks per turn, only you can give yourself that extra Hex damage.

(And, of course, they stack.)