Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific

[Jormengand]

Time for another thread in a long line of threads collecting rules from 3.5 and Pathfinder that just don't seem to work right.

Check the handbook to see if your dysfunction is already there, 'cause this is the 8th thread.

Previous threads:

"Wait, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection
"Wait Again, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Dysfunctional Rules III: 100% Rules-Legal, 110% Silly
Dysfunctional Rules IV: It's Like a Sandwich Made of RAW Failure!
Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Dysfunctional Rules VI: Magic Circle Against Errata
Dysfunctional Rules VII: Mordenkainen's Dysfunction

What this thread is for:

• Rules that clearly do something that is pointless or self-abnegating (EG Focused Lexicon is a feat that provides nothing but a penalty, no-one can use Chain Power, Hindering Opportunist helps your enemy).
• Rules that do something that is vastly contrary from anything that could possibly be the intended effect (Drown Healing, Greater Reversed Seek the Sky lasts forever, Reversed Mystic Rampart is meant to lower someone's saves but actually drops a tower on them).
• Rules that cause an non-resolvable game state (Peerless Archers can stack infinite attacks of opportunity)
• Rules that don't define something well enough to use it ("Distracted", "Minimum Caster Level", "Paladin spell", "Primary Ability Score", "Special Material", anything missing a range or other variables).
• Rules that, while they don't actually have a negative impact on the game as a game, do stop it making sense (EG fire and acid don't do fire and acid damage, you can fall 9 feet onto your head and take no damage, falling creatures deal no damage if they land on you).
• Two or more rules combine to cause an above problem (AC bonuses and bonus feats exist, but bonuses are only applicable to die rolls so no they don't).
• As a general rule, if you need to write a house rule for it.

What this thread is not for

• Typos (Weapon deals 1d33 or 1d43 damage because 3 isn't superscript; "Share Lesser Form" mistyped as "Share Laser Form".)
• Dysfunctions that only arise because of a specific reading of the text (In combat, everyone is flat-footed until they act, so they must have been flat-footed whenever they weren't in combat, even though the text only specifies that they're flat-footed in combat. Someone who can't be flanked can't have a person on each side of them because if they did, they would be flanked.) Unless every possible reading of the text is dysfunctional no matter how you read it (even if it's dysfunctional in different ways).

[Debatra]

Is it my imagination, or did the writers not have any clue as to what "range" means on spell effects? Range is how far away from you the origin of an effect can originate from, but lightning bolt has a 120 foot range and starts at your fingertips. How does that work, exactly? And that's by no means the only one. Range is hardly ever used properly. But since you can't have a spell's area affect anything outside its range, this forces spells to be written incorrectly to function at all and completely negates what range actually is.

It also screws up how Widen and Enlarge feats function. A lot of the time, you have to use both simultaneously, or neither have an effect.

Not quite. Range is "the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin". So Lightning Bolt still works. As for the part about the spell beginning at your fingertips despite the Range being 120', specific trumps general. We also already have the Area/Range Dysfunction.

[edit] And on that note, how does lightning bolt work on a creature without fingers?

And that, I have no answer for.

[Jormengand]

And that, I have no answer for.

The spell fails because the conditions can't be made to conform. Fireball similarly fails. 5th-level evokers gotta have fingers.

EDIT: Actually, it's worse than that: Ray of Frost, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Acid Arrow (but your hand), Cone of Cold (but your hand), Chain Lightning, Freezing Sphere, Prismatic Spray (but your hand), Polar Ray (but your hand) and probably a few I've missed have similar clauses.

[PallentisLunam]

The spell fails because the conditions can't be made to conform. Fireball similarly fails. 5th-level evokers gotta have fingers.

EDIT: Actually, it's worse than that: Ray of Frost, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Acid Arrow (but your hand), Cone of Cold (but your hand), Chain Lightning, Freezing Sphere, Prismatic Spray (but your hand), Polar Ray (but your hand) and probably a few I've missed have similar clauses.

Actually it's even worse than that

A somatic copponent is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one free hand to provide a somatic component

So most spells are off limits to anything not possessing hands.

[Charizander]

Actually it's even worse than that

So most spells are off limits to anything not possessing hands.

Including dragons and many other races with racial arcane spellcasting.

[PallentisLunam]

Including dragons and many other races with racial arcane spellcasting.

Not just arcane. While divine somatic components are simpler and don't have an armor failure chance they still require hands.

And what if a caster polymorphs into something without hands? No more spells.

[bekeleven]

Including dragons and many other races with racial arcane spellcasting.

Dragons have hands.

Here's a simple one I don't recall seeing:

Survival does not allow you to follow difficult tracks unless you are a ranger or have the Track feat

[...]

While anyone can use Survival to find tracks (regardless of the DC), or to follow tracks when the DC for the task is 10 or lower, only a ranger (or a character with the Track feat) can use Survival to follow tracks when the task has a higher DC.

What ACFs are good for ranger? Well, be sure to take one that trades out track.

[Charizander]

Dragons have hands.

Source for this? Because they're quadrupedal, and as far as I can tell, they have claws/talons/paws, not hands.

[bekeleven]

Source for this? Because they're quadrupedal, and as far as I can tell, they have claws/talons/paws, not hands.

I was thinking of some illustrations, but then I looked again and they're really inconsistent, even within the same book.

[ShurikVch]

Not just arcane. While divine somatic components are simpler and don't have an armor failure chance they still require hands.

And what if a caster polymorphs into something without hands? No more spells.

Thus Surrogate Spellcasting feat is a must have!

Book Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene
Chapter about Trolls have 13 new Trolls
But, by some reason, description (text, not table) for some of them -

• Troll, Chaos
• Troll, Mindreaver
• Troll, Ravager
• Troll, Stench
• Troll, Storm

- don't mentioned their Regeneration
Thus they either don't really get Regeneration, or their Regeneration is impenetrable
More interesting are entries for:

• Troll, Arctic
• Troll, Sand

They have "Limited Regeneration" - text specified when their Regeneration works 50% slower, but not which attacks bypass it
But the most interesting entry is for "Troll, Rot":

Limited Regeneration (Ex): A rot troll must be able to submerge itself for at least 1 hour per day. If it does not, the troll loses its ability to regenerate, and loses 10 hp per hour (through sloughing skin) until dead. Only dumping the skeleton into stagnant water can only revive them. After being submerged in stagnant water for 1 to 3 days. the troll begins to regenerate at its normal rate.
Fresh, free flowing water does nothing.

Dead creatures are incapable to Regeneration

[torrasque666]

Source for this? Because they're quadrupedal, and as far as I can tell, they have claws/talons/paws, not hands.

I think its covered by this, specifically:

Although a dragon’s front feet are not truly prehensile, adragon can grasp objects with its front feet, provided they
are not too small. This grip is not precise enough for tool
use, writing, or wielding a weapon, but a dragon can hold
and carry objects. A dragon also is capable of wielding
magical devices, such as wands, and can complete somatic
components required for the spells it can cast (see Spellcasting,
below). Some dragons are adroit enough to seize
prey in their front claws and carry it aloft.

I guess their claws function close enough to hands to count?

[Charizander]

I guess their claws function close enough to hands to count?

So they're not prehensile enough to write, and just barely prehensile enough to grab prey and carry off (sometimes), but they have the precision necessary to perform gestures that are so demanding that an extra thick shirt can mess them up?

Definitely a dysfunction.

[Inevitability]

A cleric of St. Cuthbert with the Heretic of the Faith feat can be Lawful Neutral, Lawful Good, Neutral Evil, Neutral Good, and even Chaotic Neutral. Said cleric still can't be Lawful Evil, though.

So they're not prehensile enough to write, and just barely prehensile enough to grab prey and carry off (sometimes), but they have the precision necessary to perform gestures that are so demanding that an extra thick shirt can mess them up?

Definitely a dysfunction.

Well, depending on your campaign setting, dragons might have been the literal inventors of magic, so it wouldn't be too surprising if they'd worked around some of the somatic problems it would otherwise pose for them.

[Troacctid]

Including dragons and many other races with racial arcane spellcasting.

You forget that racial spellcasting specifically waives the normal requirements for somatic components and allows the creature to use whatever body parts are appropriate for them.

A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body.

[PallentisLunam]

You forget that racial spellcasting specifically waives the normal requirements for somatic components and allows the creature to use whatever body parts are appropriate for them.

Okay, well that fixes racial spellcasting but it doesn't do anything for spellcasting from class levels

[Troacctid]

Okay, well that fixes racial spellcasting but it doesn't do anything for spellcasting from class levels

I believe Savage Species addressed this issue, but I'm AFB at the moment.

[Debatra]

Here's one from the Paragnostic Assembly in Complete Champion:

Paragnostic Scholar: You can gain a bonus equal to +1 per hour spent in research (maximum +5) on your choice of one of the following skill checks: Appraise, Decipher Script, any Knowledge skill, Psicraft^EPH, Spellcraft, or Truespeak^ToM. Each time you perform research, you can choose a different skill to which to add the bonus.

Many of the church's clerics members worship specific deities of knowledge, but some empower themselves through the worship of knowledge itself. If you are a cleric, you can choose from the Knowledge, Magic, Trickery, Mind™, and Oracle™ domains.

Note that it doesn't say what happens with the chosen Domain. Can you select it as one of your standard Domains? Do you get it as an extra one? Do you just get access to its spells and/or Granted Power? Do you do something else with it?

[Charizander]

Note that it doesn't say what happens with the chosen Domain. Can you select it as one of your standard Domains? Do you get it as an extra one? Do you just get access to its spells and/or Granted Power? Do you do something else with it?

The passage itself says what clerics get from that. Clerics can worship either a god or hold to an ideal, and clerics who hold ideals from the Paragnostic Assembly typically choose from those domains as their normal clerical domains.

[Debatra]

And where exactly does it say that?

No, I'm seriously asking.

[Charizander]

And where exactly does it say that?

No, I'm seriously asking.

That whole last paragraph:

"Many of the church's clerical members worship specific deities of knowledge, but some empower themselves through the worship of knowledge itself. If you are a cleric, you can choose from the Knowledge, Magic, Trickery, Mind™, and Oracle™ domains."

You worship knowledge itself as a cleric, you get to choose from those domains.

Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[ShurikVch]

Willing Deformity feat line have number of dysfunctions:
Deformity (eyes) - don't required to have any eyes
Deformity (face) - don't required to have a face
Deformity (Skin) - don't required to have a skin
Deformity (Teeth) - don't required to have a mouth
Deformity (Tongue) - don't required to have a tongue

Deformity (gaunt)/Deformity (obese):
1. Creatures without any metabolism are still able to take them - as long as they are sentient and Evil
2. Creatures with Deformity (gaunt) are 50% lighter, with Deformity (obese) - X2 heavier, but still occupy the same space. It may be OK for your average Humanoid, but what's about the sentient Constructs, which body is a solid slab of metal(/rock/wood/...)? Or awakened Ooze, which are mostly water, thus notable change of weight should cause similar change of volume? (Or Water Elemental, which is 100% water?)
3. Incorporeal creatures with Deformity (gaunt) and with Deformity (obese) are still have the same weight - no weight at all

[Chronos]

The gaunt/obese thing is just yet another example of "the rules work, but are weird, because they're supposed to be weird".

[Jormengand]

Feather tokens have no range and practically no restrictions, allowing you to stop armadas with a pocket full of 50-GP novelties and destroy forts if you're willing to spend 40 platinum on a tree token.

[PallentisLunam]

Feather tokens have no range and practically no restrictions, allowing you to stop armadas with a pocket full of 50-GP novelties and destroy forts if you're willing to spend 40 platinum on a tree token.

Well the tree token says spring into being, not spring out of the ground, but I guess you could summon one a few hundred feet in the air so destruction is still assured.

[Inevitability]

Frostburn says:

In addition to the normal characteristics
of the surrounding plane (see Adventuring on Other Planes,
page 147 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide) frostfell regions on
the Inner Planes possess the following traits:
[...]
• Impeded Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities with the
fi re descriptor are impeded. This includes spells of the
Fire domain. These spells and spell-like abilities can still
be used, but a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15 + level of
the spell) must be made to do so.

In other words; creating a shield of ice cold flames, or protecting yourself against fire, is somehow harder when on a plane of pure ice and cold.

[Debatra]

That's not a dysfunction. It's just weird.

[georgie_leech]

That's not a dysfunction. It's just weird.

Wasn't the second dysfunction pointed out that Monks technically aren't proficient in Unarmed Strikes despite that being part of their core concept? That technically doesn't break the rules but it's weird as anything else. There's room for 'dysfunctions' of 'this makes no sense at all based on what we know about the fluff of what's going on.'

[Curmudgeon]

There's generally no way for someone who gains natural weapons to gain proficiency with those natural weapons. (I'm excluding unarmed strike here; that's a natural attack which is also considered to be a simple weapon, and it's also already been addressed as a dysfunction.)

Pick up Feral template (Savage Species, page 116) for example, which grants a pair of claw attacks. The result of Feral is always a Monstrous Humanoid creature. Fey, Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, and Outsider creatures all lack proficiency with natural weapons. (Other types say "Proficient with its natural weapons"; not these commonly-played types, though.) Feral doesn't grant any proficiency with those claws, and there's no "Natural Weapon Proficiency" feat in the game.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, I think we can make one big master dysfunction - about half the time, the rules assume all creatures are medium-sized humans - and nest all these "what if I have no eyes" things there.

[CrazyYanmega]

Reposting here since I posted it in the wrong thread:

Harpoons lodge fully in any creature no matter the size. Furthermore, harpoons function perfectly fine against swarms and oozes.

Is my assumption here correct, or did I miss some text somewhere?