Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific

[Andezzar]

Moving after your first attack is a special note beneath the description of full attacks and in turn under the heading of full-round actions. So you start your full attack, but after the first attack you can choose to forgo the rest of your attacks and take a move action instead.

That seems pretty straight forward and I'm not seeing any way to interpret that as "you can take a standard action and then turn it into a full attack later". It's the other way around because the ability is specifically a subset of the full attack action.

You're right, so one less dysfunction.

[Gemini476]

Also, what happens when a creature dies? Is there actually anything to say that a creature who dies actually gets the Dead condition?

IIRC Complete Divine talks about what happens to the souls of dead creatures vis-á-vis the afterlife.

RAW, though, I do believe that the Dead condition not doing anything is a known dysfunction.

[illyahr]

Wouldn't "Con: -" prevent it?
Only creatures who have Constitution score are living creatures.
If somebody have "Con: -", then it's mean "not a living creature"
How you can die at all, if you are not a living creature in the first place?

You'd think so, but nothing in the rules actually says so. I've been looking since it came up and I can find nothing that prevents a templated undead from dying when the base creature hits its maximum age.

When a character reaches venerable age, secretly roll his or her maximum age, which is the number from the Venerable column on Table: Aging Effects plus the result of the dice roll indicated on the Maximum Age column on that table, and records the result, which the player does not know. A character who reaches his or her maximum age dies of old age at some time during the following year.

[ShurikVch]

Then what's about those of Undead who already died from the old age?

[illyahr]

Then what's about those of Undead who already died from the old age?

Double dead? I would love this one to be put to rest 'cuz it's just so silly.

The thing is that it only affects creatures that gained the Undead with a template and had rules on a maximum age.

[dhasenan]

Then what's about those of Undead who already died from the old age?

Actually, now I'm confused about this. They're already dead. When you reach Venerable Age, your maximum age is rolled. Then, when you reach your maximum age, you will die at some point in that year. You don't automatically die whenever your age is greater than your maximum age; it's a one-time effect.

This means a lich will actually die of old age once, and then they'll revive by merit of the phylactery, and they won't die of old age again. An undead creature formed from someone who died of disease or injury will die of old age. But an undead creature formed of someone who has already died of old age has had the maximum age death expended on them already, and it doesn't reset. (This applies to any form of resurrection that can handle death from old age.)

The SRD informs us: "Most people in the world at large die from pestilence, accidents, infections, or violence before getting to venerable age." Since I want my army of undead thralls to last as long as possible, I want to use the corpses of people who died of old age (since I personally plan to live forever). This means I need a lot of people in my dominion who have exceptional health.

[No brains]

For undead and dying of old age:
The only things the rules say about dying of old age is that the character dies of old age sometime during the following year and that all of the raise dead effects don't work on them. There are two ways I can think of to cheat everlasting death by this definition.

A character can take a life vacation for their maximum age (their entire venerable age category+1 year if they want to be cautious) and then get raised when their maximum age has passed. They missed the year that they would die irrevocably and get raised from an effect that doesn't block the spell. This works with undeath as old age doesn't block animate dead or lich mojo. The DM can cheat back by only counting years that the character was actively alive, but that gives up some freedom that can probably be leveraged usefully too.

They also can spam delay death for their maximum age as old age is not a death effect (though it might count as a condition). Old age usually leaves a pretty intact corpse so jury's out.

Also remember what death usually does is set a creature's hitpoints to -10. That amount is usually lower than their non-lethal hp, so they are also unconscious. Technically, if you can figure out a way to stay conscious at -10 hp, being dead doesn't do anything to you.

[illyahr]

Also remember what death usually does is set a creature's hitpoints to -10. That amount is usually lower than their non-lethal hp, so they are also unconscious. Technically, if you can figure out a way to stay conscious at -10 hp, being dead doesn't do anything to you.

But undead reduced to less than 0 HP are destroyed, so you'd have to find a way around that also (such as Necrotic Reserve).

[dhasenan]

Also remember what death usually does is set a creature's hitpoints to -10. That amount is usually lower than their non-lethal hp, so they are also unconscious. Technically, if you can figure out a way to stay conscious at -10 hp, being dead doesn't do anything to you.

The SRD says: "Dead. The character’s hit points are reduced to –10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect." Old age kills you outright by an effect, we infer. As for the effects of being dead: "The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic."

That means Delay Death won't even help, which explicitly says you can't die from hit point loss but can die of other effects.

If you don't age while dead, your life vacation idea won't work: you'll come back and start aging where you left off, and you'll be eligible to die of old age just as you were before. If you do age while dead, which is unlikely, you'll die of old age when you're already dead and can't resurrect.

Polymorph is a potential alternative. Dubious efficacy. You start as a human. When you turn 69, you polymorph into an elf. When you turn 349, you polymorph into a human again. Does this mean you've reached Venerable age? If so, your maximum age is rolled (between 72 and 110 inclusive) and you're going to die within a year of when you reach that age. Time paradox: you've reached that age more than a year ago.

But with another reading, you didn't have a maximum age before. Now you have one, and you're at least that age, so you've reached your maximum age, and you'll die within a year.

The safest way is to polymorph into something that doesn't have age characteristics and never polymorph back. A slightly higher maintenance way is to polymorph into "a 30-year-old version of myself" every few decades.

[Jormengand]

IIRC Complete Divine talks about what happens to the souls of dead creatures vis-á-vis the afterlife.

RAW, though, I do believe that the Dead condition not doing anything is a known dysfunction.

I'm not talking about whether Dead does anything, I'm talking about whether or not dying necessarily gives you Dead.

[Debatra]

Well let's see:

The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

A dying character is unconscious and near death. She has -1 to -9 current hit points. A dying character can take no actions and is unconscious. At the end of each round (starting with the round in which the character dropped below 0 hit points), the character rolls d% to see whether she becomes stable. She has a 10% chance to become stable. If she does not, she loses 1 hit point. If a dying character reaches -10 hit points, she is dead.

And an entire section on Injury and Death.

[Jormengand]

Well let's see:

And an entire section on Injury and Death.

Okay, yeah, that's fair. Although, this does bring something else up:

No matter how many hit points you lose, your character isn’t hindered in any way until your hit points drop to 0 or lower.

Now, clearly, what this is meant to mean is:

No matter how many hit points you lose, your character isn’t hindered by hit point loss in any way until your hit points drop to 0 or lower.

But the way it's written, it makes it out like you simply cannot be hindered by anything until your hit points are 0 or less. Wall in my way? Doesn't hinder me, I have hit points!

[Flickerdart]

Wall in my way? Doesn't hinder me, I have hit points!

This is still the attitude of some characters.

[Chronos]

"You fool, do you not know that no man may hinder me!"
"But I am not a man. You look upon a woman!"
"Yeah, but I still have HP remaining anyway, so there!"

[The Viscount]

The Imp is a devil that corrupts vulnerable souls. To this end it has the suggestion SLA. Suggestion is language dependent. Imps only speak Infernal, Celestial, and Draconic, leaving them incapable of using it on many of the mortals it would be tempting.

[Inevitability]

Certain feats, such as Aberration Blood, Willing Deformity, and Dragon Wings, change a character's appearance.

Zombies lose all feats the base creature possessed.


This means that if you find some freaky self-mutillator who's taken Willing Deformity (Gaunt), kill him and raise him as a zombie, the zombie will be fatter and heavier than the creature was in life. Then if you destroy the zombie and raise the gaunt guy, he's skinny again.

[Jormengand]

Certain feats, such as Aberration Blood, Willing Deformity, and Dragon Wings, change a character's appearance.

Zombies lose all feats the base creature possessed.


This means that if you find some freaky self-mutillator who's taken Willing Deformity (Gaunt), kill him and raise him as a zombie, the zombie will be fatter and heavier than the creature was in life. Then if you destroy the zombie and raise the gaunt guy, he's skinny again.

This is to do with magic. When you take a willing deformity feat, you're deformed by *Insert dark magic here*. However, when you're a zombie, your shape is determined by *Insert different dark magic here*, and when you're brought back to life, the ressurection spells reform you to the state you had before. So yes, the zombie will have a different shape as it is shaped by different magic.

Wings also make some kind of level of sense to fall off when the creature is raised as a zombie, and then regrow when resurrection (which can reform a body from someone's fingernail) takes place. Raise dead specifically won't replace the wings, though.

[The Viscount]

This is to do with magic. When you take a willing deformity feat, you're deformed by *Insert dark magic here*. However, when you're a zombie, your shape is determined by *Insert different dark magic here*, and when you're brought back to life, the ressurection spells reform you to the state you had before. So yes, the zombie will have a different shape as it is shaped by different magic.

Wings also make some kind of level of sense to fall off when the creature is raised as a zombie, and then regrow when resurrection (which can reform a body from someone's fingernail) takes place. Raise dead specifically won't replace the wings, though.

It's not necessarily magic, and for most of the deformity feats it explicitly isn't. For example, the text for Deformity (Obese) reads "Through intentional gorging and general gluttony, the character is obese. Grossly overweight, she is now at least triple the normal weight for creatures of her kind."

Or for face it reads "Because of intentional self-mutilation, the character has a hideous face." These are simply changes to the body that have been made for the feats. Zombies do not have special shapes determined by magic, they are animated flesh.


As for the wings, they're only lost if the character becomes certain undead, like zombies, skeletons, or wights. If they become a gravetouched ghoul they keep them, even though they're still a rotting corpse.

[No brains]

I like to think that in the case of vile feats, if you lose the feat or the prerequisites, you stay mutilated, it's just that the mutilation is now lacking the (Su) mojo that made it do anything special.

[Inevitability]

I'm pretty sure zombies keep wings. After all:

Speed
If the base creature can fly, its maneuverability rating drops to clumsy.

Either they keep their wings, or they don't yet are still able to fly.

[Andezzar]

Either they keep their wings, or they don't yet are still able to fly.

And that does not strike you as odd?

[Inevitability]

And that does not strike you as odd?

To be honest, both strike me as odd. The first is a little less strange, though.

[Andezzar]

What's odd about keeping the wings and fly speed?

[PallentisLunam]

What's odd about keeping the wings and fly speed?

If I may I think the oddity is that either a zombie is coordinated enough to fly with wings. Remember these are creatures that are so clumsy and jerky that they only get a single action per round. Flight is a very complex balance where as walking is just falling forward and catching yourself before your face meets the ground.

[bekeleven]

Here's one I know I haven't seen before in these threads.

Elf, PHB: "Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats."

Elf, MM: "Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow."

Which of these is correct? As far as I can tell, they don't contradict, so... both of them? Which is kind of a buff to those of us doing the shuffle.

[Flickerdart]

I would say they are both correct - the same way that Cloistered Clerics have all Knowledge skills (because of the domain) and red dragons are vulnerable to cold (because of their subtype), elves are proficient in those weapons (because of the feats). The MM simply doesn't go into detail explaining the source of the automatic proficiency. Getting rid of the feats also gets rid of the proficiencies.

[Jormengand]

Here's one I know I haven't seen before in these threads.

Elf, PHB: "Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats."

Elf, MM: "Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow."

Which of these is correct? As far as I can tell, they don't contradict, so... both of them? Which is kind of a buff to those of us doing the shuffle.

Both, and their meaning is identical:

For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.

For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite shortbow is treated as if it were a shortbow.

Therefore, they receive the weapon proficiency feats MWP longsword, MWP rapier, MWP longbow, and MWP shortbow, which makes them automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, and shortbow, irrespective of the compositeness of the bows.

[Andezzar]

The equivalence of longbow and composite longbow is not the issue. The issue is being proficient through racial traits directly is not the same as being proficient by having bonus feats. The latter can be exchanged for something more useful through DCFS, the former can't.

[georgie_leech]

If I may I think the oddity is that either a zombie is coordinated enough to fly with wings. Remember these are creatures that are so clumsy and jerky that they only get a single action per round. Flight is a very complex and balance where as walking is just falling forward and catching yourself before your face meets the ground.

Actually, as evidenced by the relative rarity of bipedal creatures and the complicated engineering that goes into getting robots to walk, walking on two legs isn't actually all that simple. All sorts of fine muscle adjustments and balancing needs to be done to move relatively smoothly. We just do it all the time and so stop thinking about it.

[Jormengand]

The equivalence of longbow and composite longbow is not the issue. The issue is being proficient through racial traits directly is not the same as being proficient by having bonus feats. The latter can be exchanged for something more useful through DCFS, the former can't.

Hence why I said "Which makes them automatically proficient with" the weapons, just to address that issue too.