Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific

[Doctor Despair]

Swarms without a hivemind are immune to mind-affecting effects, including bardic music.

Until they hit level 21 and take Music of the Gods! Then Bards can do pretty much whatever they want to whoever they want between buffs and the Power of Suggestion.

[Debatra]

Several spells grant certain benefits just for learning them. Not preparing, not casting, just for knowing the spell. Some of these spells are on the lists of classes that automatically know their entire spell list, like Clerics.

[Doctor Despair]

Several spells grant certain benefits just for learning them. Not preparing, not casting, just for knowing the spell. Some of these spells are on the lists of classes that automatically know their entire spell list, like Clerics.

That's quite interesting! Could you give a few examples?

[Debatra]

Adoration of the Frightful (+1 to Diplomacy), Vision of the Omniscient Eye (+1 to Spot), Burst of Glacial Wrath (resist cold 5; not a Cleric spell). There are others.

[zergling.exe]

Several spells grant certain benefits just for learning them. Not preparing, not casting, just for knowing the spell. Some of these spells are on the lists of classes that automatically know their entire spell list, like Clerics.

I seem to recall Curmudgeon at one point said that the only spells that are spells known are ones that you can currently cast. I don't recall where they would have said this.

[Hunter Noventa]

I seem to recall Curmudgeon at one point said that the only spells that are spells known are ones that you can currently cast. I don't recall where they would have said this.

Wouldn't that play utter havoc with wands and staffs?

[Jormengand]

Wouldn't that play utter havoc with wands and staffs?

All X are Y does not imply that all Y are X. Just because all spells you know are ones you can cast (Which I don't incidentally think is true) doesn't imply the reverse.

[zergling.exe]

Wouldn't that play utter havoc with wands and staffs?

Spell Trigger and Spell Completion items like scrolls, wands and staves merely require you to have the spell on your list, not that you know it. This is why even sorcerers are very powerful with a large variety of these items.

[Story]

Just noticed a new one: A Dryad that casts Acorn of Far Travel on an acorn harvested from their oak tree is considered touching the tree at all times, regardless of whether they are actually carrying the acorn.

Of course, this is only vacuously true, because Acorn of Far Travel must be cast on an acorn that is still attached to a tree, and thus there is no way to cast it on a harvested acorn.

Several spells grant certain benefits just for learning them. Not preparing, not casting, just for knowing the spell. Some of these spells are on the lists of classes that automatically know their entire spell list, like Clerics.

Not a dysfunction: They specifically covered that case elsewhere in the book. Only classes like Sorcerer that have a limited number of spells known get a benefit from learning those spells.

[georgie_leech]

Just noticed a new one: A Dryad that casts Acorn of Far Travel on an acorn harvested from their oak tree is considered touching the tree at all times, regardless of whether they are actually carrying the acorn.

Of course, this is only vacuously true, because Acorn of Far Travel must be cast on an acorn that is still attached to a tree, and thus there is no way to cast it on a harvested acorn.

"As you cast the spell, the spirit of the oak tree wells into the acorn, which detaches into your hand once the casting is complete." Given that "harvest" isn't a defined game term, I think we can safely default to the common sense "the acorn targeted by this spell that fell off the tree" in this case.

[Divayth Fyr]

Not a dysfunction: They specifically covered that case elsewhere in the book. Only classes like Sorcerer that have a limited number of spells known get a benefit from learning those spells.

Not entirely true:

Characters gain an extra benefit by learning some of these spells, as noted in the “Special” entry after a spell’s description. This benefit applies to any character who has a list of spells known, such as a bard, sorcerer, warmage (see Complete Arcane) or favored soul (see Complete Divine), but not to characters who prepare spells from a class list or a spellbook, such as a cleric or wizard.

When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list.

[georgie_leech]

Not entirely true:

Warmage does get spells aside from those though, due to Advanced Learning. Whether that means they get the benefit of such spells if they appear only through that feature or if they just need to show up on the list somewhere, your guess is as good as mine.

[Troacctid]

I seem to recall Curmudgeon at one point said that the only spells that are spells known are ones that you can currently cast. I don't recall where they would have said this.

Divine casters don't actually have spells known at all unless their class description specifies otherwise. Spells known are typically an arcane thing.

Swarms without a hivemind are immune to mind-affecting effects, including bardic music.

Mind-affecting immunity is a vermin trait, not a swarm trait. A swarm of animals is susceptible to mind-affecting effects. You're probably thinking of this rule:

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind.

An effect that targets a specific number of creatures won't work on swarms unless it's a mind-affecting effect targeting a hive mind. So Inspire Courage and Countersong affect non-vermin swarms, but Inspire Greatness and Fascinate don't.

[CrazyYanmega]

Has Crusader's stance progression been mentioned at all on these threads? Specifically comparing the Crusader exclusive Devoted Spirit stance levels with when the Crusader can actually learn them?

[Chronos]

You can still get those stances by multiclassing. It's possible that that was even the intended behavior, to give Tome of Battle classes an incentive to multiclass.

[Troacctid]

The Lady/Lord of the Dead prestige class. You're not a lord. You're not a lady. You are, in fact, a "lady/lord", whatever that is, regardless of your gender.

[ShurikVch]

Falling is a free action
You are incapable to take free actions outside of your turn (sans few very specific exceptions)
Falling is not exception
So, if enemy bull rash you off a cliff, or pit trap open under your feet, you wouldn't fall; you will hang in the air until it's your turn - assuming no of your allies reach and pull you back to stable ground

[Inevitability]

Falling is a free action
You are incapable to take free actions outside of your turn (sans few very specific exceptions)
Falling is not exception
So, if enemy bull rash you off a cliff, or pit trap open under your feet, you wouldn't fall; you will hang in the air until it's your turn - assuming no of your allies reach and pull you back to stable ground

So what if you're unconscious? Do you keep floating above the cliff, then fall down when it's your turn?

[Chronos]

Is falling actually a free action, or is it a nonaction? Cite?

[ShurikVch]

So what if you're unconscious? Do you keep floating above the cliff, then fall down when it's your turn?

Unconscious:

Knocked out and helpless.

Helpless:

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier).

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.

Paralyzed:

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act.

So, unconscious is helpless, helpless treated as paralyzed, and paralyzed is "unable to move or act".

It's mean you will float until either regain your consciousness, or somebody/something move you to more supportive surface

[Jormengand]

Is falling actually a free action, or is it a nonaction? Cite?

Falling prone in your own space is a free action. However, nothing actually causes you to fall except if you're taking the actions to do so. This is a known dysfunction.

[Troacctid]

Falling prone in your own space is a free action. However, nothing actually causes you to fall except if you're taking the actions to do so. This is a known dysfunction.

Gravity causes you to fall, as per that rule that says the material plane has normal physics unless otherwise stated.

I'm sure if we poked around, we could find more specific things that make you fall as well, like failing to maintain a minimum speed for a flying creature with average maneuverability or worse.

[Inevitability]

Gravity causes you to fall, as per that rule that says the material plane has normal physics unless otherwise stated.

Then simply go to another plane.

[Gemini476]

Then simply go to another plane.

Most planes have the "normal gravity" trait, which is defined as "similar to that of the Material Plane". The ones that don't have their own rules, which are mostly just "as normal, but...".

A possible dysfunction: planes with Heavy/Light Gravity double/halve weights and increase/decrease falling damage to d10/d4, but don't actually change the speed at which you fall.

[Inevitability]

Related: If someone falls 190 feet, then enters a planar bubble keyed to a plane with the Heavy Gravity trait, his fall will be resolved as if he fell 200 feet on a plane with heavy gravity. That's got to be dysfunctional.

[georgie_leech]

Related: If someone falls 190 feet, then enters a planar bubble keyed to a plane with the Heavy Gravity trait, his fall will be resolved as if he fell 200 feet on a plane with heavy gravity. That's got to be dysfunctional.

By how Momentum is supposed to work, but I think if you look at it like "twice as Heavy is Twice the impact" it works just fine. Yes, Increased gravity should actually just increase the acceleration and so increase the speed slightly. But D&D generally treats Weight and Mass as the same thing, and an object in the Planar Bubble is heavier than outside of it. As far as the rules are concerned, heavier objects hit harder.

[Curmudgeon]

Gravity is the only element of D&D which has acceleration. Characters go from standing still at the start of their turn to movement at their speed immediately; there's nothing between not moving and full speed. At the end of their turn of moving they're standing still again, also with no transition from moving to not moving. Fired arrows do the same damage at 1000' as they do at 10', so they don't decelerate in flight.

[Troacctid]

Gravity is the only element of D&D which has acceleration. Characters go from standing still at the start of their turn to movement at their speed immediately; there's nothing between not moving and full speed. At the end of their turn of moving they're standing still again, also with no transition from moving to not moving. Fired arrows do the same damage at 1000' as they do at 10', so they don't decelerate in flight.

Creatures do accelerate and decelerate--the rules make mention of slowing down and speeding up in several places--it's just not modeled in the combat rules, which use average speed instead of doing calculus with your instantaneous velocity.

[Curmudgeon]

Creatures do accelerate and decelerate--the rules make mention of slowing down and speeding up in several places--it's just not modeled in the combat rules, which use average speed instead of doing calculus with your instantaneous velocity.

Can you provide citations? It would be good to know where those are, because I can't think of any instances in the Player's Handbook. In particular, the combat rules for Run mean it will generally be disadvantageous only if there's no straight-line path that doesn't pass through an enemy's threatened area. Run is a full-round action, so you start it on your turn and finish it at the end of your turn. You can Run for multiple rounds, but you're always stopped when it's not your turn. And your straight-line Run path for a round can be in a completely different direction from your straight-line Run paths for the previous and following rounds.

[Troacctid]

Sure. Just off the top of my head, here's a couple relevant passages from the SRD.(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm)

Most flying creatures have to slow down at least a little to make a turn

In general, when the characters aren’t engaged in round-by-round combat, they should be able to move anywhere and in any manner that you can imagine real people could. A 5-foot square, for instance, can hold several characters; they just can’t all fight effectively in that small space. The rules for movement are important for combat, but outside combat they can impose unnecessary hindrances on character activities.

I'm sure some digging could uncover more.

You can Run for multiple rounds, but you're always stopped when it's not your turn. And your straight-line Run path for a round can be in a completely different direction from your straight-line Run paths for the previous and following rounds.

The former is probably more a quirk of the initiative system using discrete turns to represent simultaneous actions, but I certainly agree that the latter is a dysfunction.