Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific

[Sir Chuckles]

I didn't trawl through every thread to see if this was mentioned, but it wasn't in the Handbook...

Leaping into a lake or magically extinguishing the flames automatically smothers the fire.

Does this mean jumping into a river or ocean does nothing if you've been set on fire by Alchemist's Fire? Or is there somewhere else that expands the rule and I'm just going crazy?

[Jormengand]

I didn't trawl through every thread to see if this was mentioned, but it wasn't in the Handbook...


Does this mean jumping into a river or ocean does nothing if you've been set on fire by Alchemist's Fire? Or is there somewhere else that expands the rule and I'm just going crazy?

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself.

[Inevitability]

What if you jump into a lake of oil?

[Troacctid]

Oil is flammable, so you'd probably only make it worse.

[Gemini476]

Oil is flammable, so you'd probably only make it worse.

Wouldn't you smother the flames anyway due to the lack of oxygen?

Can't say the same for the surface of the lake, though.

[Inevitability]

Oil is flammable, so you'd probably only make it worse.

I know, but the rules for alchemist's fire imply it'd smother the flames.

[georgie_leech]

I know, but the rules for alchemist's fire imply it'd smother the flames.

Which it would. As indicated above though, you'd likely set the rest of it on fire, which would make the reprieve short-lived at best.

[Debatra]

If a poison causes unconsciousness as its secondary effect, it lasts 1d3 hours unless stated otherwise. If it's the initial effect, it has no duration unless stated otherwise.

The reverse is also true of paralysis poisons. (initial is noted as 2d6 minutes, secondary isn't mentioned)

[bekeleven]

Special Qualities: A Vecna-blooded creature gains the following special qualities.
Cloak of Mystery (Su): All knowledge of the Vecna-blooded creature fades from the world. Its original name, its deeds before becoming Vecna-blooded, and so forth, disappear from memory. Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain this knowledge.

If a vecna-blooded creature enters an antimagic field, does everyone remember him, or do people just stop forgetting him for that period of time?

[Troacctid]

If a vecna-blooded creature enters an antimagic field, does everyone remember him, or do people just stop forgetting him for that period of time?

I don't believe it's a continuous effect—it appears to be instantaneous.

[Jormengand]

Superior Unarmed Strike doesn't work properly for Disciples of the Word, and presumably other monk-esque classes which aren't actually called "Monk" - they deal the SUAS damage, but they deal the DotW damage.

It also decreases the damage dealt by huge or larger unarmed strikes of 3rd-level characters, gargantuan or larger of 4th-7th, and colossal of 8th-11th. Another one for the "Game assumes you're medium" box, as well as the fact that it allows a moth-sized creature to do unrealistic amounts of damage, but that's slightly less flagrant.

Also, does anyone have any objections to me putting the following explanation into the OP?:

Spoiler: I'll take it out of the spoiler

Show

What this thread is for:

• Rules that clearly do something that is pointless or self-abnegating (EG Focused Lexicon is a feat that provides nothing but a penalty, no-one can use Chain Power, Hindering Opportunist helps your enemy).
• Rules that do something that is vastly contrary from anything that could possibly be the intended effect (Drown Healing, Greater Reversed Seek the Sky lasts forever, Reversed Mystic Rampart is meant to lower someone's saves but actually drops a tower on them).
• Rules that cause an non-resolvable game state (Peerless Archers can stack infinite attacks of opportunity)
• Rules that don't define something well enough to use it ("Distracted", "Minimum Caster Level", "Paladin spell", "Primary Ability Score", "Special Material", anything missing a range or other variables).
• Rules that, while they don't actually have a negative impact on the game as a game, do stop it making sense (EG fire and acid don't do fire and acid damage, you can fall 9 feet onto your head and take no damage, falling creatures deal no damage if they land on you).
• Two or more rules combine to cause an above problem (AC bonuses and bonus feats exist, but bonuses are only applicable to die rolls so no they don't).

What this thread is not for

• Typos (Weapon deals 1d33 or 1d43 damage because 3 isn't superscript; "Share Lesser Form" mistyped as "Share Laser Form".)
• Dysfunctions that only arise because of a specific reading of the text (In combat, everyone is flat-footed until they act, so they must have been flat-footed whenever they weren't in combat, even though the text only specifies that they're flat-footed in combat. Someone who can't be flanked can't have a person on each side of them because if they did, they would be flanked.) Unless every possible reading of the text is dysfunctional no matter how you read it (even if it's dysfunctional in different ways).

[Green and Red]

My first time posting in these threads, not sure how valid this is, but it just jumped out at me while reading. It wasnt in the handbook, so it may not have come up.

The Hospitaler, in Defenders of the faith.
Can be of any nonchaotic alignment. Falls (loses class) if she becomes chaotic.
However, also falls if she performs any evil act. Despite lawful evil and neutral evil alignment being no hindrance to joining.

What exactly is the alignment restriction supposed to be here?

Its at minimum strange.

EDIT: On checking complete divine, the updated version of the hospitaler forbids chaotic acts, not evil acts. So i guess it got fixed. Although there the class has a bunch of other differences too.

[Troacctid]

Also, does anyone have any objections to me putting the following explanation into the OP?:

Spoiler: I'll take it out of the spoiler

Show

What this thread is for:

• Rules that clearly do something that is pointless or self-abnegating (EG Focused Lexicon is a feat that provides nothing but a penalty, no-one can use Chain Power, Hindering Opportunist helps your enemy).
• Rules that do something that is vastly contrary from anything that could possibly be the intended effect (Drown Healing, Greater Reversed Seek the Sky lasts forever, Reversed Mystic Rampart is meant to lower someone's saves but actually drops a tower on them).
• Rules that cause an non-resolvable game state (Peerless Archers can stack infinite attacks of opportunity)
• Rules that don't define something well enough to use it ("Distracted", "Minimum Caster Level", "Paladin spell", "Primary Ability Score", "Special Material", anything missing a range or other variables).
• Rules that, while they don't actually have a negative impact on the game as a game, do stop it making sense (EG fire and acid don't do fire and acid damage, you can fall 9 feet onto your head and take no damage, falling creatures deal no damage if they land on you).
• Two or more rules combine to cause an above problem (AC bonuses and bonus feats exist, but bonuses are only applicable to die rolls so no they don't).

What this thread is not for

• Typos (Weapon deals 1d33 or 1d43 damage because 3 isn't superscript; "Share Lesser Form" mistyped as "Share Laser Form".)
• Dysfunctions that only arise because of a specific reading of the text (In combat, everyone is flat-footed until they act, so they must have been flat-footed whenever they weren't in combat, even though the text only specifies that they're flat-footed in combat. Someone who can't be flanked can't have a person on each side of them because if they did, they would be flanked.) Unless every possible reading of the text is dysfunctional no matter how you read it (even if it's dysfunctional in different ways).

I do like the last one. I think typos are fair game if they're not fixed by errata, though.

[Jormengand]

I do like the last one. I think typos are fair game if they're not fixed by errata, though.

Except that the errata are explicitly not for fixing typos:

Errata in this file includes material that the Wizards of the Coast RPG R&D department and editors feel might affect your gameplay experience. It does not include minor, typographical errors—the sort of thing that might be fixed in a reprint but has no impact on your game.

[Inevitability]

Master's Lament (HoH) says:

Target: One humanoid creature with a familiar or other empathically linked animal companion

However, it also says:

This spell can be cast on either the master or the familiar.

So you can cast it on familiars, but only if said familiars are humanoid?

[Chronos]

I'd say that the description trumps the summary, there.

[georgie_leech]

I wonder what the rationale was for restricting it to humanoid casters only. What, are Dragons not allowed to have familiars now?

[Flickerdart]

I wonder what the rationale was for restricting it to humanoid casters only. What, are Dragons not allowed to have familiars now?

It's a power limiter, like enlarge person has.

[Gemini476]

The question is, do they mean the type of humanoid that includes stuff like orc sorcerers and dryadic druids or do they mean the Type of Humanoid that doesn't?

[Flickerdart]

The question is, do they mean the type of humanoid that includes stuff like orc sorcerers and dryadic druids or do they mean the Type of Humanoid that doesn't?

It's not a question - humanoid is a reserved rules term and means the creature type. Orc sorcerers are humanoids. Dryads are not, but they are a "creature with humanoid physiology" which is a term used occasionally.

[georgie_leech]

It's a power limiter, like enlarge person has.

Yeah, but it's a level 6 spell with no higher level counterpart to expand it to other creature types. It doesn't let you target the weaker familiar saves (it explicitly gives both targets a save) and damage splitting is a bit... underwhelming given how little direct punishment most familiars can take. This looks to be a fluffy spell that isn't actually all that powerful, unless there's some combo I'm missing.

[Andezzar]

Yeah, but it's a level 6 spell with no higher level counterpart to expand it to other creature types.

There isn't a spell that can enlarge non-humanoids either.

[georgie_leech]

There isn't a spell that can enlarge non-humanoids either.

Yes there is it's...

...

...huh, look at that. I could have sworn there was. The point stands that it seems a somewhat arbitrary restriction.

[Troacctid]

Yes there is it's...

...

...huh, look at that. I could have sworn there was. The point stands that it seems a somewhat arbitrary restriction.

Righteous Might. It's self-only though.

[Andezzar]

Righteous Might. It's self-only though.

OK, What I meant is that there is no more versatile higher level spell like with charm person and charm monster. Righteous might does quite a few things besides enlarging the target.

[Debatra]

One more for the "All players are Medium Humanoids" pile I guess.

[Inevitability]

Yeah, but it's a level 6 spell with no higher level counterpart to expand it to other creature types. It doesn't let you target the weaker familiar saves (it explicitly gives both targets a save) and damage splitting is a bit... underwhelming given how little direct punishment most familiars can take. This looks to be a fluffy spell that isn't actually all that powerful, unless there's some combo I'm missing.

Casting Delay Death on the familiar beforehand, maybe?

[Chronos]

In any event, a spell being weak for its level isn't a dysfunction.

[ShurikVch]

Weapon Graft (Fiend Folio) and Graft Weapon are both share similar dysfunction:

However, it cannot use the hand with the graft for anything but combat, and it takes a –2 penalty on all skill checks requiring the use of hands.

While your hand is grafted to a weapon, you lose the use of that hand and take a -2 penalty on all skill checks requiring the use of hands.

While it's completely understandable for most weapons, I can't see how exactly grafting a Gauntlet (or Poison Ring) can cause so much penalties

Also, note: neither graft, nor psionic power forbid you to graft the actual natural weapon to the hand

[georgie_leech]

In any event, a spell being weak for its level isn't a dysfunction.

Mm, wasn't arguing that part was, just wondering about the reasoning behind it.