Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific

[Andezzar]

Suboptimal, and perhaps not intended, but not dysfunctional.

The Urban Ranger's HiPS however is at least misnamed, possibly dysfunctional. The write up removes the class feature that waives the need for concealment (Camouflage). So the Urban Ranger can only hide while being observed in dimly lit areas (or if he has some other form of concealment. I wouldn't call such situations plain sight.

[Chronos]

There are many versions of HiPS, and it's fairly common for it to not remove the concealment requirement. It's much less common, when it doesn't, for it to not be paired with some other ability which either removes the requirement or provides concealment, but that's not unprecedented, either: The Dark creature template from Tome of Magic has the same issue.

[The Viscount]

Two feats that I don't think have been brought up here. One is a technicality type, another is an "error, not found" type.

The Able Learner feat is a 1st level only feat that makes all skills cost 1 point. By strict RAW it doesn't apply to the skills at first level, since these are bought before selecting feats.

Shape Soulmeld tells you to use the normal rules for shaping soulmelds. The normal rules say that DCs are based on Wisdom for Incarnates and Constitution for Totemists and Soulborns. If you take Shape Soulmeld but do not have levels in any of these classes, it is undefined what the DC is based on.

[Andezzar]

The Able Learner feat is a 1st level only feat that makes all skills cost 1 point. By strict RAW it doesn't apply to the skills at first level, since these are bought before selecting feats.

That's just how the feat works.

[rrwoods]

Here's a strange one:

... and your strikes deal extra damage equal to the number of disciplines you readied maneuvers from at the beginning of the day. ...

Given that you can change your readied maneuvers pretty much any time you're not fighting, I can't imagine this is what they intended.

[Jormengand]

Mobs (Cityscape) are weird.

If you arrange 48 humans into the same space that a gargantuan creature takes up, and then throw a hurricane at them, they each need to take a DC 20 fortitude save (which is very difficult) or be blown away. If however you have a mob of 48 humans, they can pass that save more than half the time, and there's no effect even if they fail it.

Similarly, if you launch a widened fireball into them, you would normally expect it to kill them all... but because they're a mob, they suddenly only take about a third of their hit points in damage.

Suppose that you get really fed up with this unit, and decide to drop an intensified fell drain meteor swarm on them to do LOLHUEG damage. You deal damage far in excess of their hit points... but only about 30% of the mob is actually dead. If that mob gets hit by the Locate City Bomb, dealing some number of hundreds of d6s of damage, only a third of them die.

I think I've just worked out how to survive the LCB...

EDIT: Also, a mob of lawful good humans isn't susceptible to word of chaos, but it is susceptible to holy word or dictum.

[No brains]

Mobs (Cityscape) are weird.

If you arrange 48 humans into the same space that a gargantuan creature takes up, and then throw a hurricane at them, they each need to take a DC 20 fortitude save (which is very difficult) or be blown away. If however you have a mob of 48 humans, they can pass that save more than half the time, and there's no effect even if they fail it.

Similarly, if you launch a widened fireball into them, you would normally expect it to kill them all... but because they're a mob, they suddenly only take about a third of their hit points in damage.

Suppose that you get really fed up with this unit, and decide to drop an intensified fell drain meteor swarm on them to do LOLHUEG damage. You deal damage far in excess of their hit points... but only about 30% of the mob is actually dead. If that mob gets hit by the Locate City Bomb, dealing some number of hundreds of d6s of damage, only a third of them die.

I think I've just worked out how to survive the LCB...

EDIT: Also, a mob of lawful good humans isn't susceptible to word of chaos, but it is susceptible to holy word or dictum.

But do they keep these traits in were-orca form?

WE ARE MANY, YOU ARE BUT ONE!

Maybe a mob is so tightly packed together so that they're all holding each other down in the hurricane and they're dense enough at the front that they block the LoE of the fireball?

Also with Fell Drain there, does the 30% dead pile of mob come back to life as a single wight?

[illyahr]

But do they keep these traits in were-orca form?

WE ARE MANY, YOU ARE BUT ONE!

Maybe a mob is so tightly packed together so that they're all holding each other down in the hurricane and they're dense enough at the front that they block the LoE of the fireball?

Also with Fell Drain there, does the 30% dead pile of mob come back to life as a single wight?

As a were-orca wight, or a were-wight orca.

[CrazyYanmega]

According to the SRD, a Sailing Ship weighs the same as a piece of chalk. Note also that the size of said piece of chalk is not specified.

Scratch that, I looked in the wrong place of the Dysfunction Handbook. It's already down.

[Andezzar]

Having a weight of - listed is not the same as having the same weight or as having a weight of 0 lb.

[Chronos]

Yes, but in the equipment table, a weight of - is explicitly said to mean "so small as to be not worth tracking".

[Andezzar]

Still, two weights that are not worth tracking do not have to be the same. Not tracking the weight of a ship probably is due to the writers not thinking its weight would be needed. You don't often carry or pull such vessels.

That an arbitrarily large volume of chalk does not have a weight is weird though. Again I think the writers haven't thought about trading chalk as a commodity.

[Gemini476]

Cows don't have a listed weight, so I don't see why bits of chalk would.

Or, y'know, Dire Cows if you want to eliminate the "just look up to IRL values" argument.

How many Tarrasques can you load on a boat? How old do [insert non-"Races of X" monster here] get?

This is especially annoying since monster weights might actually be relevant in combat what with grappling and stuff.

[turbo164]

I kinda want to make a Hulking Hurler that throws cargo ships full of chalk now.

With some Rogue levels for Sneak Attack, since the boat doesn't weigh enough to do much damage on it's own

[Andezzar]

How many Tarrasques can you load on a boat?

Not more than one, because there is only one.

Generally though weight for monsters and the maximum load of a ship can be found in the entries.

Tarrasque: 130t
maximum load of a sailing ship: 150t

[Graypairofsocks]

The essence of Shothragot has an ability which drives extraplanar outsiders with divine ranks that are within 100 miles of Shothragot insane (with no saving throw).

However all Creatures with divine ranks are immune to mind affecting abilities.

[georgie_leech]

The essence of Shothragot has an ability which drives extraplanar outsiders with divine ranks that are within 100 miles of Shothragot insane (with no saving throw).

However all Creatures with divine ranks are immune to mind affecting abilities.

Don’t forget the DC 35 Check to avoid being affected by its Aura of Madness. What kind of check? Beats me, but we at least know the DC

[Dimers]

The Able Learner feat is a 1st level only feat that makes all skills cost 1 point. By strict RAW it doesn't apply to the skills at first level, since these are bought before selecting feats.

I quibble therewith. PHB says "follow these steps", not "follow these steps in exactly this order (but see caveat under Record Racial And Class Features)". Also, if you had to follow the steps precisely as written, it wouldn't be rules-legal to create a character without reviewing the starting packages for your class, you wouldn't be allowed to choose gender until after deciding on a name*, there's at least an implication that you're not allowed to denote your character record using computer or possibly even a pen ... et cetera.

* I can just hear it now. "My character's name is Melissa, and he's the -- wait, crap."

[Inevitability]

The Dream of the Insight feat says:

While in a dreamtouched state, you gain low-light vision, darkvision out to 60 feet, and blindsense.

What's the range on that blindsense? No one knows.

[ShurikVch]

Spoiler: I'll take it out of the spoiler

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What this thread is for:

• Rules that clearly do something that is pointless or self-abnegating (EG Focused Lexicon is a feat that provides nothing but a penalty, no-one can use Chain Power, Hindering Opportunist helps your enemy).
• Rules that do something that is vastly contrary from anything that could possibly be the intended effect (Drown Healing, Greater Reversed Seek the Sky lasts forever, Reversed Mystic Rampart is meant to lower someone's saves but actually drops a tower on them).
• Rules that cause an non-resolvable game state (Peerless Archers can stack infinite attacks of opportunity)
• Rules that don't define something well enough to use it ("Distracted", "Minimum Caster Level", "Paladin spell", "Primary Ability Score", "Special Material", anything missing a range or other variables).
• Rules that, while they don't actually have a negative impact on the game as a game, do stop it making sense (EG fire and acid don't do fire and acid damage, you can fall 9 feet onto your head and take no damage, falling creatures deal no damage if they land on you).
• Two or more rules combine to cause an above problem (AC bonuses and bonus feats exist, but bonuses are only applicable to die rolls so no they don't).

What this thread is not for

• Typos (Weapon deals 1d33 or 1d43 damage because 3 isn't superscript; "Share Lesser Form" mistyped as "Share Laser Form".)
• Dysfunctions that only arise because of a specific reading of the text (In combat, everyone is flat-footed until they act, so they must have been flat-footed whenever they weren't in combat, even though the text only specifies that they're flat-footed in combat. Someone who can't be flanked can't have a person on each side of them because if they did, they would be flanked.) Unless every possible reading of the text is dysfunctional no matter how you read it (even if it's dysfunctional in different ways).

Which of those will be the it? -

Orb of Force is "Conjuration (Creation)" with "Duration: Instantaneous"

If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Thus after the cast of Orb of Force we will get completely non-magical Orb of Force, which exact properties (besides 3" size) are completely unknown

[Andezzar]

Actually the orb is completely inert. It deals damage only once, so after that it does nothing.

[ShurikVch]

Actually the orb is completely inert. It deals damage only once, so after that it does nothing.

It's also completely free, and indestructible

[Andezzar]

It's also completely free, and indestructible

It is also completely unable to interact with anything. It has no mass, no impulse no charge, no state of aggregation etc.

[ShurikVch]

It is also completely unable to interact with anything.

Why?
It can do it just fine, no worse than any other item in a game
Scratch it, force able to ignore DR and hardness, and even to interact with ethereal or incorporeal stuff

It has no mass, no impulse no charge, no state of aggregation etc.

Spoiler: Real-world physics in a tabletop game?

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[Jormengand]

The main reason that the ball of force doesn't do anything, by RAW, is that the RAW doesn't define it as doing anything. Apart from damage, but it's done that now.

[Andezzar]

The main reason that the ball of force doesn't do anything, by RAW, is that the RAW doesn't define it as doing anything. Apart from damage, but it's done that now.

That is what I was about to say.

As for the orb of force, the rules do not say that it can do that more than once.

Also, I hate catgirls.

[ShurikVch]

The main reason that the ball of force doesn't do anything, by RAW, is that the RAW doesn't define it as doing anything. Apart from damage, but it's done that now.

Isn't continuous existence of something which don't described in RAW a dysfunction by itself?

[Jormengand]

Isn't continuous existence of something which don't described in RAW a dysfunction by itself?

Not really. I don't know whether or not trees or twigs or rocks or sand are described in the rules, but their existence isn't really a dysfunction.

Of course, on the material plane, the ball of force basically explodes into a small omnidirectional shockwave the moment it's left to its own devices, because that's how force would work in the real world if there was just some force sitting in a random sphere for no particularly good reason.

[The Viscount]

I quibble therewith. PHB says "follow these steps", not "follow these steps in exactly this order (but see caveat under Record Racial And Class Features)". Also, if you had to follow the steps precisely as written, it wouldn't be rules-legal to create a character without reviewing the starting packages for your class, you wouldn't be allowed to choose gender until after deciding on a name*, there's at least an implication that you're not allowed to denote your character record using computer or possibly even a pen ... et cetera.

* I can just hear it now. "My character's name is Melissa, and he's the -- wait, crap."

That's actually a really good point. I had assumed it would be in order because this is the order you must do on leveling up. The fact that this order is enforced on level up but not necessarily on character creation is an oddity in and of itself.

[ShurikVch]

Not really. I don't know whether or not trees or twigs or rocks or sand are described in the rules, but their existence isn't really a dysfunction.

Trees are may be kinda important - for example, you may awake it, but what's the stats?
Rocks should matter too - such things as weight, hardness, or hit points may be important
Sand may be awakened too
Twigs may be animated

Of course, on the material plane, the ball of force basically explodes into a small omnidirectional shockwave the moment it's left to its own devices, because that's how force would work in the real world if there was just some force sitting in a random sphere for no particularly good reason.

Except, there is no [force] in real world, so we can't say how it will behave in real world