Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific

[Flickerdart]

"A ball of force is left in existence, but has no physical properties so it doesn't matter" honestly seems to be the least dysfunctional of all the Orbs.

[Sky]

I think I have a dysfunction in Pathfinder. Enlarge Person only works on hominoids, and can be made permanent with a Permanency spell (and 2,500 gp, of course ). The capstone feature of the Monk (and several other classes) changes your type to Outsider (Native). To the best of my knowledge, the rules don't cover what happens if you cast a spell and make it permanent, but the target later changes type.
(This may work in 3.x more broadly, but I only have Pathfinder.)

[Flickerdart]

To the best of my knowledge, the rules don't cover what happens if you cast a spell and make it permanent, but the target later changes type.

The popular interpretation is that a spell only checks when cast. If the target later becomes illegal, the spell remains in effect. This makes sense because the alternative (a spell stops working as soon as the target becomes illegal) runs into the issue of creatures walking out of range of the caster to rid themselves of dangerous debuffs, because they are now illegal targets due to being too far away.

[Chronos]

There are also spells which require a target of one type and change them to a different type, which would be self-terminating under the other interpretation.

As for Orbs of Force, we do know some of their properties. First of all, of course, we know that they're made of force, which gives us some properties right there: In particular, D&D force is quite durable, being vulnerable only to Disintegrate and a handful of other rare effects, or to the spell which created it expiring (not an issue here). We also know that an orb of force does a bunch of d6 of damage when flung violently. So, anyone who can fling things violently can get the same benefit from it. It may or may not have mass or momentum, but that's irrelevant, because even if it doesn't have those things, we still know it's capable of dealing damage.

[Sky]

The popular interpretation is that a spell only checks when cast. If the target later becomes illegal, the spell remains in effect. This makes sense because the alternative (a spell stops working as soon as the target becomes illegal) runs into the issue of creatures walking out of range of the caster to rid themselves of dangerous debuffs, because they are now illegal targets due to being too far away.

Okay. Just something I'd noticed. Figured I would drop it here to see what other people thought.

Regarding Force: Force is, I believe, used to mean two different things in D&D. One is an energy type, like [Fire] or [Cold], but the other is an actual substance, like in the spell Wall of Force. I don't know if using the same name to mean two different things is a dysfunction, but it is certainly confusing.

[Troacctid]

Force is a damage type, but not an energy type. The energy types are acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic.

[georgie_leech]

We also don't know if you can actually lift said Orb to do the throwing, or if when not flung violently it is quite easy to pass through it with normal force like non newtonian liquids except more so. Or for that matter it's not one of those things that burst violently on impact because that's a more dramatic result than thudding into an opponent and sitting there like a baseball.

[Debatra]

There are also spells which require a target of one type and change them to a different type, which would be self-terminating under the other interpretation.

Well there's also the "Shrodinger's PrCs" like Dragon Disciple (requires you to not be a dragon, capstone makes you a dragon) and Ur-Priest (requires you to be unable to use divine magic, gives you divine magic).

To be clear: I'm not arguing in favor of that argument; just pointing out the precedent.

[Andezzar]

Well there's also the "Shrodinger's PrCs" like Dragon Disciple (requires you to not be a dragon, capstone makes you a dragon) and Ur-Priest (requires you to be unable to use divine magic, gives you divine magic).

To be clear: I'm not arguing in favor of that argument; just pointing out the precedent.

Once again it does not work that way. The prerequisites are only checked once: when you take the first level in a PrC. It does not matter what happens afterwards. The broken rules that continually require the character to fulfil the prerequisites are only for the PrCs in CArc and CW.

So that is no precedent.

[Jormengand]

The broken rules that continually require the character to fulfil the prerequisites are only for the PrCs in CArc and CW.

Really? Where does it say that?

[Chronos]

Those rules are only found in those two books. So it's not a question of where it does say that, it's a question of where it doesn't say otherwise.

[PallentisLunam]

Building an artificer and I noticed:

Infusions never allow saving throws

Then when picking my stats I found Enhancement Alteration:

If the weapon or shield is attended, the weilder can make a Will saving throw to negate the effect

Couldn't find anything in the Handbook about it.

[Flickerdart]

Seems to be a case of the ol' specific trumps general. Usually you have to look in another book for something to violate an "absolute rule" (such as the PHB saying there are X classes and then bam, there are more) but I guess the editing department screwed the pooch again.

[PallentisLunam]

It can't be specific trumps general because we are never told how to calculate a save DC for an infusion. Yes we know the formula that is used everywhere else but to apply it in this case would be improper and even then does it key off of INT or CHA?

EDIT: Forget that last part, artificers aren't dual stat casters don't know where I got that idea

[Dimers]

That's actually a really good point. I had assumed it would be in order because this is the order you must do on leveling up. The fact that this order is enforced on level up but not necessarily on character creation is an oddity in and of itself.

Sorry, I don't mean to be obtuse, but I can't find any requirement of a specific order-of-operations for leveling up, either. It's not on page 58-59, nor do I see a restriction in the Skills or Feats chapters. I know that's how it was done for the Neverwinter Nights video games, but ... I can't find it in the PHB. The only clear indication of order is that a class choice has to come before several other steps, since class sets the parameters for them. Also the rules for prestige classes say "the first step of advancement is always choosing a class", strongly implying a specific intended order without actually delineating anything past step 1.

I just don't see any written rule demanding skill selection before feat selection.

[Andezzar]

Those rules are only found in those two books. So it's not a question of where it does say that, it's a question of where it doesn't say otherwise.

On top of that the Primary Source rule says that those books have no authority over the DMG or other source books.

[Chronos]

Quoth PallentisLunam

EDIT: Forget that last part, artificers aren't dual stat casters don't know where I got that idea

Actually, by the text, we don't know if artificers are dual stat casters or not, since it never tells us what ability their saves are based on. For all we know, it could be Wis, or even Str or something. I'd noticed this problem before, with the Disable Construct infusion (basically, Harm vs. constructs), which will always offer a save.

However, this was fixed in the errata. Artificer infusions do indeed have a save DC based on Int.

[Jormengand]

On top of that the Primary Source rule says that those books have no authority over the DMG or other source books.

But the DMG doesn't say anything about that - it's like me saying that the spell Thunderhead (SpC) does nothing because the core 3 don't say it does anything, and they have prevalence of the SpC.

[Andezzar]

But the DMG doesn't say anything about that - it's like me saying that the spell Thunderhead (SpC) does nothing because the core 3 don't say it does anything, and they have prevalence of the SpC.

No, that is something different. The rules from CArc or CW applying to PrCs from other books is like saying Thunderhead somehow modifies how Shout works.
The primary source for how PrCs work is the DMG. CArc or CW cannot overwrite those rules:

When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct.

[Flickerdart]

Primary source doesn't work that way. Quoth every errata file: "When you find a disagreement between two... rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct."

The DMG gives rules about PrCs, but it does not mean other sources can't also give rules about PrCs. The DMG has nothing to say on what happens once you stop qualifying for a PrC, therefore a "lesser" book providing such a rule is not in conflict with the DMG.

[PallentisLunam]

Primary source doesn't work that way. Quoth every errata file: "When you find a disagreement between two... rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct."

The DMG gives rules about PrCs, but it does not mean other sources can't also give rules about PrCs. The DMG has nothing to say on what happens once you stop qualifying for a PrC, therefore a "lesser" book providing such a rule is not in conflict with the DMG.

The problem is you're looking for the rules to state what doesn't happen and that's not how the rules are written.

It would be ridiculous for the rules to list everything that doesn't happen.

[Andezzar]

Being allowed to take another level in a PrC without fulfilling the prerequisites is in direct contradiction to either of the rules in CArc and CW. For your convenience:

Unlike the basic
classes found in the Player’s Handbook, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement (see page 58 of the Player’s Handbook) apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.

None of the PrCs in the DMG or other books (besides those in CArc and CW) require you to fulfil the prerequisites at any other point, nor do they generally remove the ability to take levels in a class.

Any restrictions of PHB (base) classes for advancing or keeping class features are not general rules about level advancement or gaming in general, but are rules specific to certain classes (like monk or paladin).

[Flickerdart]

That's still not a contradiction. The rules do not say "yeah you can't take the first level, but if you're already in you're fine." They just do not address the remaining 4, 9, or whatever levels of PrCs.

[bekeleven]

Seems to be a case of the ol' specific trumps general. Usually you have to look in another book for something to violate an "absolute rule" (such as the PHB saying there are X classes and then bam, there are more) but I guess the editing department screwed the pooch again.

I thought the PHB said there are only 11 base classes?

[ShurikVch]

Small technical dysfunction:

If a template changes a creature’s size, use Table 4-2 to calculate changes to natural armor, Armor Class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus.

Except Table 4-2 doesn't have info about grapple bonus (it's in the Table 7-1)

[Andezzar]

That's still not a contradiction. The rules do not say "yeah you can't take the first level, but if you're already in you're fine." They just do not address the remaining 4, 9, or whatever levels of PrCs.

And so the general rule applies. The first step of levelling up is picking a class. CArc/CW cannot prevent you from picking a class that is not in the same book.

[Flickerdart]

And so the general rule applies.

General rules can be overridden by specific rules. Otherwise the whole game breaks down. "Taking a level in a PrC" is more specific than "taking a level in a class."

[Andezzar]

General rules can be overridden by specific rules. Otherwise the whole game breaks down. "Taking a level in a PrC" is more specific than "taking a level in a class."

The differences between taking a level in a class and taking the first level in a PrC have been delineated on p. 176 of the DMG (the primary source for PrCs). CArc or CW cannot add additional restrictions with the same level of generality. Taking a level in a PrC from one of those books is much more specific than taking a level in any PrC.

If you think that the rules from CArc or CW actually work and apply to all PrCs, how do you explain to your players that their characters with PrCs are screwed as soon as it is not their turn? The rules say that you loose stuff (it varies between the two books) if at any time you do not fulfil the prerequisites.
When it is not a caster's turn, he cannot cast spells (unless he has immediate action spells), so whatever the book specifies is gone. When the assassin is not constantly killing someone to join the assassins (which he can't because he already joined), he loses stuff. etc.

And did you notice that neither CArc nor CW has rules how to regain whatever they remove? So even if at some point you again fulfil all the prerequisites, whatever you lost is gone forever.

[Telok]

Well noboy's saying that the Complete Screwball rules aren't stinky tooters. The issue is that the DMG and C~ address different things. DMG says thay you have to meet the requirements to take a level in the class, the C~ says that if you stop meeting requirements you lose. They address different aspects of prestige classes and neither one explicitly addresses if you need to continue meeting requirements for taking later levels of the class.

[Andezzar]

Well noboy's saying that the Complete Screwball rules aren't stinky tooters. The issue is that the DMG and C~ address different things. DMG says thay you have to meet the requirements to take a level in the class, the C~ says that if you stop meeting requirements you lose. They address different aspects of prestige classes and neither one explicitly addresses if you need to continue meeting requirements for taking later levels of the class.

The screwed up rules in CW do address that:

An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

CArc is silent on the matter.