New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 91 to 106 of 106
  1. - Top - End - #91
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    The core point remains that there is literally no provision in the general rules nor the specific bloodline level rules for losing XP. It speaks solely of "taking" a bloodline level. That means it MUST fill the "level slot" you have available when you take it; if it does not, then you immediately gain ANOTHER level of any sort you like, and the bloodline level didn't cost a thing. At all. It in fact just gave you MORE bonuses. If that was the intent, there would be no penalty for failing to take bloodline levels. In fact, you should take them all at level 1, because you can and they cost you nothing and they let you push your skill rank caps and any CL you might get from your very first class level up by 3.
    Actually, there are lots of provisions in the rules for losing XP. You spend XP for certain spells, like wish. You spend XP to make magic items. You lose XP when you lose a level after being raised from the dead, and for negative levels that become permanent. If I looked hard, I'd probably find some other ones I can't think of off the top of my head. Spending XP for a bloodline level isn't much of a stretch.

    Now, "it would be broken" isn't a RAW argument. But it is a point to keep track of when discussing whether something would really work that way.
    Yes, it is, it is one of the arguments I've been making. Scoring a bloodline level as a full character level, with only meager benefits, would be a very broken way of interpreting what the designer tried to do.

    The RAW state that you take a bloodline level. When you take a level, your ECL increases. It has to, because your XP doesn't decrease when you level up; your XP determines what level you ARE.
    Yeah, except everything else about this, from the way it is written, from the exclusions provided, to the game balance effect, to comments from the designer himself, indicate it isn't a real level.

    If, as you say, the Bloodline level does NOT increase his level, then what happens?
    The rules leave a big gaping hole on how to handle the player's XP total. As I see it, there are two choices:

    A) adjust all the values at which future real character levels are gained.
    B) just subtract off the amount of XP needed to gain the next level from the player's total. They "paid" for the bloodline level with a level's worth of XP, without affecting their character level.

    I recommend B, as it is easier, and not without precedent, as players spend XP for other things as well. Either way, it is balanced, the player earned XP that went to pay for the benefits of the bloodline level. The player didn't get the benefit of a full level, so they don't have to suffer the price of gaining a real level...slower XP gain from future encounters, and higher XP cost for gaining the next real level.

    This preserves the notion of balance purported in paying for the bloodline powers with bloodline levels, because it is a legitimate cost (hit points, BAB, save bonuses, skill points). It avoids awkward questions about how to adjust XP when no XP adjustment is listed, or how to handle a level that isn't a level when the XP says you should have a certain number of levels. It is similar to Savage Species approaches to monster "class" levels, and has the same motive as a Level Adjustment. And it is 100% consistent with the RAW, requiring no extra words be read into it that are not there, and no extra rules be invented to handle things that arise from it.
    A lot of that is true, but imposing a full level for the meager powers of a bloodline level isn't worth it, why would anybody do it? They become a level higher, without the vast majority of benefits that come from a real level. Why would anybody ever choose a bloodline level, vs. taking a full class level, with the full benefits of a class level? It makes no sense. Game designers make mistakes, they're human. But they do try to make the rules make sense. If something doesn't, then we should chose the interpretation that works best.

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    Where on earth does it say that???
    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Having a Level Adjustment doesn't magically give you XP. See the Lycanthropy rules for backup: afflicted Lycanthropes get a bunch of HD and LA, but their XP doesn't jump. They just don't get to gain any more levels until their XP catches up with their ECL.
    Gaining a LA template doesn't magically grant XP, but having a level adjustment at character creation does:

    Quote Originally Posted by MM
    Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.
    Last edited by Beheld; 2016-01-29 at 06:37 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post

    The Bloodline Levels text says that they don't raise your level the way normal levels do, implying that they ARE levels, but that they don't do it quite the same way.
    No, it doesn't imply that.

    (Hint: they're CALLED bloodline LEVELS. They're levels. They behave like levels except as noted. It says they don't give BAB, HD, saves, or skill points. IT does NOT say that they leave your ECL the same as it was before you took them. It even says you take them. Taking a level increases your ECL.)
    Spell levels are levels, too, but they aren't character levels, they are spell levels. Vestige levels aren't character levels, class levels, spell levels, encounter levels, or any other kind of levels. Utterance levels aren't character levels, class levels, caster levels, spell levels, vestige levels, encounter levels, or any other kind of levels. More powerful utterances from the Lexicon of the Perfected Map, that characters gain access to at higher levels, are numbered from 1st to 4th level.

    So, screaming that a LEVEL is a LEVEL isn't accurate. Lots of things in the game are called levels, but they aren't all apples. Clearly, bloodline levels aren't real class levels. All the exceptions make it clear they are something else, and should be viewed as something else, not shoehorned into a slot where they don't fit properly. It clearly isn't written properly. The best thing we can do is treat them based on the power of the benefits they provide. They don't provide enough benefit to be treated as full class levels.

    No, it doesn't say explicitly that they don't leave your ECL the same. However, twice it implies it: it says they don't raise a character's character level, and in the intro it says a static level adjustment isn't appropriate, because of the very gradual power gain over a span of 20 levels.

    Also, the designer has said they don't provide for feat gain or character stat gain. So, are you going to bump up the levels at which characters gain feats and stat points? Are you going to bump up the level at which characters become epic, and qualify for epic feats? because, if they don't provide level progression to get level-based feats and stat increases, then they probably don't provide level progression to qualify for epic feats and abilities, either.
    Last edited by Andorn; 2016-01-29 at 06:03 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    Actually, there are lots of provisions in the rules for losing XP. You spend XP for certain spells, like wish. You spend XP to make magic items. You lose XP when you lose a level after being raised from the dead, and for negative levels that become permanent. If I looked hard, I'd probably find some other ones I can't think of off the top of my head. Spending XP for a bloodline level isn't much of a stretch.
    None of which are relevant here, except to accentuate the fact that the rules HERE provide no such provision. This has been my point all along: there are no rules provided by the Bloodline level section for reducing your XP amount; the rules for doing so everywhere that it is needed are printed. You list some examples here. Given the lack of rules saying to do so, you don't here.



    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    Yes, it is, it is one of the arguments I've been making. Scoring a bloodline level as a full character level, with only meager benefits, would be a very broken way of interpreting what the designer tried to do.
    Alright. If you wish to make this argument...

    No. You are 100% backwards on this. It is broken to NOT treat it like a level. If you do not have it increase ECL, you are giving free bonuses to skill rank cap and to a number of class feature calculations for literally free.

    Premise: Bloodline levels are meant to "pay" for the perks of the Bloodline.
    1) To pay for something, you must be giving something up.
    2) Gaining rank cap increases and +1 to the level of various classes for purposes of calculating things based on class level is a bonus, not a penalty.
    3) Not gaining an HD, BAB for that HD, save bonuses for that HD, and skill points for that HD is a cost only if you would normally receive an HD and all the rest of it.
    4) You only "pay" something that would normally give you an HD if you count the bloodline level as a level for purposes of seeing how much XP you need to gain your next level (and its attendant HD).
    Conclusion: The Bloodline level is only a cost that you pay if you count it as a level towards your ECL; if you do not, it is 100% free power (per point 2) on top of the free power from the bloodline.



    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    Yeah, except everything else about this, from the way it is written, from the exclusions provided, to the game balance effect, to comments from the designer himself, indicate it isn't a real level.
    False. Everything listed (except possibly the comments from the designer, which I cannot verify nor see in context) says exactly the opposite, that a bloodline level is a level. The fact that it's called a "bloodline level" and that it is referred to as being "taken" as a level indicates it is a level.



    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    The rules leave a big gaping hole on how to handle the player's XP total.
    Only if you read into it a rule that isn't there. If you read it as written, with it being a level, there is no gaping hole at all. You treat it like any other level on your XP chart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    As I see it, there are two choices:

    A) adjust all the values at which future real character levels are gained.
    B) just subtract off the amount of XP needed to gain the next level from the player's total. They "paid" for the bloodline level with a level's worth of XP, without affecting their character level.

    I recommend B, as it is easier, and not without precedent, as players spend XP for other things as well. Either way, it is balanced, the player earned XP that went to pay for the benefits of the bloodline level. The player didn't get the benefit of a full level, so they don't have to suffer the price of gaining a real level...slower XP gain from future encounters, and higher XP cost for gaining the next real level.
    In other words, you acknowledge you need house rules to make your reading work.

    I point out again that you only need house rules because your reading introduces rules that are not there, and those rules cascade to create more holes in the system that need patching.

    Now, having added this, you've re-introduced a cost...but it's a negligible one that would still be well worth paying on its own any number of times for the increases it gives to power without raising ECL. This is hardly balanced.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    A lot of that is true, but imposing a full level for the meager powers of a bloodline level isn't worth it, why would anybody do it?
    Er... why would anybody take a race with a punitive LA? The designers overvalue bonuses. Though, frankly, the designer clearly agrees that full levels are too much to pay; that's why they give some bonuses with them. If they weren't meant to actually take the place of levels, they would not need to increase rank caps and give +1 effective level to class-based calculations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    They become a level higher, without the vast majority of benefits that come from a real level.
    That is correct. Because it's paying that HD, BAB, etc. for the bloodline perks that they get throughout their 20-level career.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    Why would anybody ever choose a bloodline level, vs. taking a full class level, with the full benefits of a class level?
    Why would anybody take a half-dragon template?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    Game designers make mistakes, they're human. But they do try to make the rules make sense. If something doesn't, then we should chose the interpretation that works best.
    I agree. However, it is very clear that game designers have repeatedly - especially early in 3.5 - over-valued various bonuses when they come from "race," and thus made LAs and other, similar things which are too costly for what they give. If you feel that's the case with Bloodlines, that's not surprising. But Bloodline levels absolutely are meant to be exactly as big a cost as you have outlined, here, and, per the RAW, they ARE that big of a cost. If you don't feel it's worth it, that's fair enough. But that doesn't change that what you propose turns a cost into an additional benefit.

    It's like saying, "Well, since nobody would give up whole levels for the Half Dragon template, clearly the Level Adjustment is how many extra class levels they start with at 0 XP for having taken the template. That makes it worth having!"

    It's MEANT to be a cost. Yes, the cost is relatively high. Yes, it's fair to look at hte perks and say, "that's not worth it." But that doesn't change what it is. You just value the perks lower than the designer did.

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2014

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    It's pretty apparent to me what the (main) problem is with bloodline's RAW. The ways in which they act like levels (or don't) fall under three categories:
    * ways they explicitly DO act like levels (raise skill rank maximum, effects that count levels count them)
    * ways they explicitly DON'T act like levels (no HD, no BAB/saves)
    * ways they helpfully leave out for us to argue about

    It's that third category that's a problem (obviously) and the rest of the text is nowhere near as clear as it needs to be to determine what's what in that regard. Many people here seem to think it is, for some reason, but really it's just not clear enough to give us what the "right" ruling is.

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    No. You are 100% backwards on this. It is broken to NOT treat it like a level. If you do not have it increase ECL, you are giving free bonuses to skill rank cap and to a number of class feature calculations for literally free.
    They aren't free. That is disingenuous of you. They are paid for with XP, just like you pay for certain spells you cast, and magic items you create. You're right, it isn't spelled out in the rules, but it is the easiest way to deal with it, that maintains balance, and conforms to the intent expressed by the designer.

    Premise: Bloodline levels are meant to "pay" for the perks of the Bloodline.
    1) To pay for something, you must be giving something up.
    2) Gaining rank cap increases and +1 to the level of various classes for purposes of calculating things based on class level is a bonus, not a penalty.
    3) Not gaining an HD, BAB for that HD, save bonuses for that HD, and skill points for that HD is a cost only if you would normally receive an HD and all the rest of it.
    4) You only "pay" something that would normally give you an HD if you count the bloodline level as a level for purposes of seeing how much XP you need to gain your next level (and its attendant HD).
    Conclusion: The Bloodline level is only a cost that you pay if you count it as a level towards your ECL; if you do not, it is 100% free power (per point 2) on top of the free power from the bloodline.
    <rolls eyes>


    False. Everything listed (except possibly the comments from the designer, which I cannot verify nor see in context) says exactly the opposite, that a bloodline level is a level. The fact that it's called a "bloodline level" and that it is referred to as being "taken" as a level indicates it is a level.
    I posted links to the designer's comments. Yeah, it is sort of a level, but it is not a character level, the rules say so. If it was a real level, you'd get all the real benefits you get when you take a real level. Since you don't get the real benefits of a level, it isn't a real level. And, it's not a level adjustment, the text excluded that at the very beginning of the rules section.

    So, the only thing left that makes any sense is to treat it as a cost of some sort, and just deduct the XP from the player's total. It is the only thing that maintains actual play balance, and is most consistent with the intent expressed by the designer.

    Only if you read into it a rule that isn't there. If you read it as written, with it being a level, there is no gaping hole at all. You treat it like any other level on your XP chart.
    If you read it as written, you get the abilities and everything for no actual cost, since no actual cost is specified. That makes no sense, either.

    In other words, you acknowledge you need house rules to make your reading work.
    I've been saying that all along. The writing is messed up, and in some cases flat out wrong (like class levels for skill rank cap, when skill rank cap is based on character level, not individual class levels). The only thing to do is find a simple mechanism that makes it work. That mechanism is to just deduct XP when a bloodline "level" is "taken", as the cost of gaining the abilities. A cost that is paid incrementally as the character gains levels, and gains the abilities, incrementally. A cost that doesn't otherwise stick it to the player, by taking up 1-3 real character levels without all the essential things that real character levels give: hit points, skill points, actual new class abilities, BAB, saving throws, and advancement towards level-based feats and stat points.

    If you aren't getting the essential things that come with a real level, then you will be woefully handicapped in power when it comes to combat with actual foes of your ECL. That would be a very broken interpretation.

    I point out again that you only need house rules because your reading introduces rules that are not there, and those rules cascade to create more holes in the system that need patching.
    Nonsense. If you adopt your rule interpretation, then characters will suffer all the handicaps I have spelled out, for mostly minor gains in power which will not offset the deficits or the cost.

    Now, having added this, you've re-introduced a cost...but it's a negligible one that would still be well worth paying on its own any number of times for the increases it gives to power without raising ECL. This is hardly balanced.
    What cost have I "re-introduced"???

    Er... why would anybody take a race with a punitive LA?
    Errr, roleplaying reasons? FUN? Why make the LA punitive? Let the players enjoy themselves. Provide a mechanism to make it work, rather than making the cost so obnoxious that nobody would ever be willing to do it. Honestly, sometimes game designers and rules lawyers who are just looking for reasons why something can't be done should all have "Killjoy" tattooed on their foreheads.

    The designers overvalue bonuses. Though, frankly, the designer clearly agrees that full levels are too much to pay; that's why they give some bonuses with them. If they weren't meant to actually take the place of levels, they would not need to increase rank caps and give +1 effective level to class-based calculations.
    Well, since you acknowledge that the designer didn't want the cost to be a full level, why do you keep insisting that the price be a full level (or three, for a major bloodline)?

    That is correct. Because it's paying that HD, BAB, etc. for the bloodline perks that they get throughout their 20-level career.
    So, you think that giving up 3 full levels worth of benefits (hit dice, skill points, BAB, saving throws, new spells/class features, advancement for level feats and skill points, and probably a delay in reaching epic abilities) in exchange for what you get is balanced?

    It's MEANT to be a cost. Yes, the cost is relatively high. Yes, it's fair to look at hte perks and say, "that's not worth it." But that doesn't change what it is. You just value the perks lower than the designer did.
    No, you are valuing the benefits higher than the designer did, so you are reading things into what the designer wrote that aren't there so you can impose a higher cost.

    Game balance means the cost/benefit either way is equivalent, so you can do it or not, and not be influenced by power balance. If it is balanced, then players can choose bloodline levels or not, as their sense of fun dictates. If you set it up so the cost is prohibitive, then why bother? It becomes a forgone conclusion that nobody would ever choose to play with those features because the cost is too high. That reduces the fun of the game. What do you get out of that?

    If you read the interviews with Andy Collins, you'll see that he imposed NO COSTS for bloodline levels in his own game. I guess he figured there should be some cost to it in the general rules, but he didn't want to impose full level costs. If that had been his intent, he could have just said they were full on levels, like the paragon system.
    Last edited by Andorn; 2016-01-29 at 08:17 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.
    Ah, I see. I had to look at that for a few minutes to wrap my head around it, but then I realized it just doesn't matter. Why, you may ask?

    Because it makes no real difference if you start at 0 and have to go to 2000 to gain your first class level, or if you go from 1,000 to 3,000. Either way, your next level is +2000 XP.

    Maybe you could argue that having 1000 XP in the bank is better, in case you cast something that has an XP cost. But at character level 1? I can't think of anything offhand.

    Oh, wait. I think there are some methods where characters can share XP costs for magic item creation. In that case, finding a bunch of level 1 monsters with base XP might be exploitable. So it's probably better to start XP at 0, in spite of what WotC's dumb accounting system says.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by rrwoods View Post
    It's pretty apparent to me what the (main) problem is with bloodline's RAW. The ways in which they act like levels (or don't) fall under three categories:
    * ways they explicitly DO act like levels (raise skill rank maximum, effects that count levels count them)
    * ways they explicitly DON'T act like levels (no HD, no BAB/saves)
    * ways they helpfully leave out for us to argue about

    It's that third category that's a problem (obviously) and the rest of the text is nowhere near as clear as it needs to be to determine what's what in that regard. Many people here seem to think it is, for some reason, but really it's just not clear enough to give us what the "right" ruling is.
    Pretty succinct.

    Ways they act like real levels:
    * raise skill rank maximum
    * raise class abilities that are based on class level
    * uses the word "level" in text that refers to the mechanics

    Ways they don't act like real levels
    * No hit dice
    * No BAB
    * No saving throw bonuses
    * No skill points
    * No progression on spell tables
    * No new class abilities
    * No advancement of class abilities whose advancement is tabularized (sneak attack, EB, etc)
    * No progression for feats based on character levels
    * No progression for stat points based on character levels
    * No advancement of character abilities based on character level
    * If you don't take a bloodline level on schedule, you suffer a 20% XP penalty until you do
    * RAW specifically argues against a static level adjustment
    * RAW specifically says bloodline levels don't increase a character's character level, like a normal class level does

    Things being argued about:
    * Should we read into the qualifiers in the text that they raise character level in some other way?
    * Should costs/benefits of different approaches affect reaching a consensus on whether or not BL affect ECL?

    Things we *could* argue about (which would be more productive):
    * How should we evaluate designer's statements that bloodline levels were totally free in his campaign?
    * Since BLs don't count for gaining level-based feats and stat increases, should they also postpone epic entry?
    * Since a bloodline represents some ancestral cuckoo in the family tree, is it possible to have more than one bloodline?
    * What is the difference between minor, intermediate, and major bloodlines? Number of generations? Strength of the ancestor? Some combination of the two?


    My position in a nutshell:
    1) Bloodline levels are so different in the way they work from normal levels that they are clearly NOT normal levels. So, despite the fact they are called "levels", they are not character levels, or class levels, but some other type of level. This isn't spelled out in the text, but when it comes to looking at their features, it is pretty clear, at least to me.

    2) There are significant costs associated with a higher character level:
    A) your next level is more expensive.
    B) being a level higher, you gain less XP from the encounters that you fight. To gain parity, you have to fight tougher stuff. To be considered a level high while being denied the benefits normally gained from a character level is wrong.
    C) the cumulative effects of multiple BLs makes these costs grow as the character progresses.

    Incurring these costs without gaining the benefits you gain with a normal level is too high a price, game balance wise, for what you get from having a bloodline. Whether you have a minor, intermediate, or major bloodline, the system is set up so that you have to pay the BL before you get the 3rd ability. So, you get a +2 to one skill check somewhere, and a specified feat (which if you already have you'd then get no benefit from). Then you either take the bloodline level, or pay a 20% XP penalty for the rest of the character's life. To impose a full character level without the character getting all the standard benefits of a real level, for the minor benefits a bloodline grants, is too much.

    If you take the bloodline level, you get a slightly higher skill cap (which has little to no combat effect,) and a +1 level to calculated class abilities, which is a significant benefit, but these benefits are far less in total than you get from a real class level, or from a template that is good enough to come with a level adjustment.

    3) The designer has stated that they do not advance character level for the purpose of gaining level-based feats or stat increases. To treat them as a character level would require adjusting the levels at which the character would then get feats and stat points. That is unsupported by RAW anywhere else, it is complicated, unnecessary, and downright silly.

    4) The facts that the designer gave them out in his game for free, that the RAW states he didn't want a static level adjustment, and that they don't advance character level the way a normal class level does do, that they provide no advancement for getting level-based feats or stat points, are sufficient for me to believe they do not affect ECL.

    5) So we are left with an implementation problem, a gaping hole you can drive a truck through: How to handle the XP? I believe the easiest way to do it is to just deduct the XP from the player's total. It is not without precedent, as other things also cause XP to be deducted from a player's total. Nothing in the game has ever caused the XP level chart to be revised, so just deducting the XP is far less troublesome.

    5) In my opinion, it is easier to deduct the XP than it is to treat it as a character level. it is more balanced cost vs benefit than it would be to make it a character level of some sort, and it is more consistent with the intent the designer has expressed.
    Last edited by Andorn; 2016-01-29 at 10:36 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Orc in the Playground
     
    tsj's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Eberron
    Gender
    Male

    Thumbs up Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    So, you think they intended to make the character 1 level higher with each bloodline level, but deny that character the hit die, BAB, saving throw bonuses, skill points, and new spells per level, feats, stat increases, and class abilities?

    That makes no sense.

    The character is either a level higher or it isn't. If you aren't getting all the stuff I just mentioned, it makes no sense to treat the character as 1 level higher when it is XP award time.

    As for the "free stuff" at level 1 and 2, if you don't take the bloodline level, you forever after suffer a 20% penalty to XP. What's "free" about that?
    I see nothing about a 20% XP penalty anywhere?
    What I do see, is strong evidence that a major bloodline has an alternate LA of 3.

    Alternate LA vs regular LA: The only difference that I can see, is that instead of paying the 3 levels upfront as you would do with a regular LA, the alternate LA is instead spread across levels 3, 6 & 12 in the case of a major bloodline.

    Other than that I agree with other posters that everything has been said already.

    Suggestion for house rule:
    Add HD & saves to bloodline levels and LA in your games if you feel that you give up to much to gain the benefits. ...
    D20 et al are just game systems, their role is to
    support role play, when or if rules get in the way of that, house rule it away using your awesome DM power! :)
    Last edited by tsj; 2016-01-30 at 02:38 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Alright, so both sides have been argued, debated, bullet-pointed, and whatever else to death and back again. Multiple times. For many years.

    The way I see it, (and this is just my view strictly from reading through this thread,) is that there are two ways to look at it:

    (Assuming no LA/RHD; using the Exp formula rather then the table.)

    Option 1:
    0xp: Class Level 1 (ECL 1, feat)
    +1000xp: CL 2 (ECL 2)
    +2000xp: Bloodline Level 1 (ECL 3, no feat)
    +3000xp: CL 3 (ECL 4, feat, no stat)
    +4000xp: CL 4 (ECL 5, stat)
    etc.

    Option 2:
    0xp: CL 1 (ECL 1, feat)
    +1000xp: CL 2 (ECL 2)
    +2000xp: CL 2 + BL 1 (ECL 2)
    +2000xp: CL 3 + BL 1 (ECL 3, feat)
    +3000xp: CL 4 + BL 1 (ECL 4, stat)
    etc.

    Option 1 does weird things to the feat and stat gains, Option 2 does weird things to the Xp amounts.

    You're the DM. You choose to allow Bloodlines in your game. Choose the option that works best for you, go with it, have fun.
    You're the player. The DM has allowed Bloodlines in his/her game. Respect his/her decision, go with it, have fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsj View Post
    I see nothing about a 20% XP penalty anywhere?
    Bloodline Levels, third paragraph:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains.
    Remember, posting links to TVTropes is Vile.
    Spoiler: Fun Quotes (Spoiled for Length)
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedhin View Post
    You are vile and I will link this post randomly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haley
    Imagining getting it on atop a mountain of coins still technically counts as thinking about you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Humans are weird.

    I'm Bad, and that's good. I will never be Good, and that's not bad. There is no one I'd rather be then me. ~Bad Guy Affirmation
    Unofficial (Self-titled) Spokes person for the Unofficial TOB Errata
    Now a Vestige!

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    When it comes to buyign these bloodline levels. Only at specific levels for each or can you pay for all 3 when xp allows and wind up be x-class 2 / x-bloodline 3?

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by animewatcha View Post
    When it comes to buyign these bloodline levels. Only at specific levels for each or can you pay for all 3 when xp allows and wind up be x-class 2 / x-bloodline 3?
    The RAW doesn't say anything about that, the only requirement is you take them before certain levels or suffer XP penalties and don't get any more of the BL abilities/bonuses until you do. Strictly RAW, you could take all 3 levels at level 1. If you have two bloodlines, you could take 6 levels.

    You'd have a level 7 magic missile, but still be level 1. You'd have no more spells than a level 1 wizard or sorc, you'd get no feats or stat points or hit points or anything. Your max skill rank would be 10, but that doesn't help if you don't gain a real level, because BL levels don't give any skill points to actually raise your skills. You'd be a level 1 character who spent 6,000 XP and has a really great magic missile.

    Of course, while gaining 6000 xp you've probably expanded your spell book quite a bit, and gained some gear. If you are a sorc on the other hand, gear is good, but you haven't gained any versatility at all, no new spells.

    Something new to wonder about: how do you actually train up a bloodline level? Does it even require training?
    Last edited by Andorn; 2016-01-30 at 05:53 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rijan_Sai View Post

    Option 1 does weird things to the feat and stat gains, Option 2 does weird things to the Xp amounts.
    Option 2 is easy if you just subtract off the XP. Then nothing changes.

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    Option 2 is easy if you just subtract off the XP. Then nothing changes.
    Oh I know, that's why I used the fomula rather then totals. Whether you subtract the "spent" xp, or keep a running total, it still takes 5000 total xp to reach level 3 with option 2.

    As for the question of when to take them, yes you could potentially take all three at 1->2, but (personally) I believe it's the most "balanced"* to take them at the given breaker points, (3, 6 and 12, respectively.)

    (If anyone wants to know, I play by option 2, but I do see and understand the way 1 could work.)

    *As "balanced" as anything else in 3.5 is...
    Remember, posting links to TVTropes is Vile.
    Spoiler: Fun Quotes (Spoiled for Length)
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedhin View Post
    You are vile and I will link this post randomly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haley
    Imagining getting it on atop a mountain of coins still technically counts as thinking about you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Humans are weird.

    I'm Bad, and that's good. I will never be Good, and that's not bad. There is no one I'd rather be then me. ~Bad Guy Affirmation
    Unofficial (Self-titled) Spokes person for the Unofficial TOB Errata
    Now a Vestige!

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    I was all set to try a detailed response, but I found myself, honestly, getting bored with reading the rebuttal. Especially when a (literally) logically presented argument was replied to with "<rolls eyes>." This tells me that we're not going to make any progress, since anything that can't be made into a straw man or ignored is going to be dismissed without thought. I am...disappointed.

    You're welcome to continue to insist that your reading of it is "right" despite admitting that multiple extra rules that are not in any way present must be invented to handle your way, while mine is "wrong" despite working without needing to invent nor add anything, just because you feel what I point to the RAW to find is too high a cost, in your opinion.

    Honestly, we're past the point where even agreeing about the RAW matters. If you want to call your house rule (which has to be, by definition, since your reading requires inventing XP-expenditure rules, if only to define how much XP to spend) the RAW, that's fine. If you want to call my reading of the RAW "house rules," that's fine. If you think my "house rules" are brokenly underpowered, thta's also fine.

    None of us are playing, to my knowledge, at each others' tables, so in practice, this argument no longer matters. Minds are made up, so things will be run as the mind in charge of the table says. Enjoy your game; I am sorry we could not convince each other, as I really like coming to agreement on what is and is not true. However, it really doesn't matter beyond understanding each others' positions. I believe I understand yours to my satisfaction. I hope you understand mine, despite disagreeing with it. If you do not, I apologize for my failure to express it clearly enough. But I literally cannot think of any other way to phrase it than I already have. So if my reasoning is not clear, then I have failed to express myself well. Either way, I can contribute nothing more to this conversation, barring somebody new coming in and not having read what I already wrote.

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Orc in the Playground
     
    tsj's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Eberron
    Gender
    Male

    Thumbs up Re: [3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

    Rian sai:
    Ah yes thanks, I did not notice that last time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorn View Post
    As for the "free stuff" at level 1 and 2, if you don't take the bloodline level, you forever after suffer a 20% penalty to XP. What's "free" about that?
    You are correct. I did not read that part. So basically the bloodline stuff is bulletproof
    As in no free stuff. ..

    I still see the actual "bloodline levels" as a kind of LA, the stuff you get at each level in a bloodline is not part of the LA per say.

    For a major bloodline i.e.:

    If you do not take the LA at levels 3, 6 & 12 you gain no more bloodline stuff and pay for the current stuff by losing 20% of your XP

    So yes, you always have these options with bloodline levels:

    Major :

    benefits at levels 1&2 + 20% XP penalty or

    benefits at levels 1&2&3 + LA 1 or

    benefits at levels 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5
    + LA 1 + 20% XP penalty or

    benefits at levels 1-6 + LA 2 or

    benefits at levels 1-11 + LA 2 + 20% XP penalty or

    benefits at levels 1-20 + LA 3

    Same system with the 2 other types of bloodline levels, ie. Minor bloodline you pay just one LA OR 20% XP penalty
    Last edited by tsj; 2016-01-31 at 04:46 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •