[3.5] Building my First Gish.

[ExLibrisMortis]

ExLibrisMortis
Wizard 6 / Crusader 1 / SpellSword 1 works out mechanically better than 2 levels warblade as it gives you an extra caster level. Just food for though for your next Gish. (Crusader gets all martial weapons, unlike sword sage and war blade).

I know, but Malak'ai requested a warblade gish.

[DEMON]

If ToB is on the table (which it is in this case) and your DM is drunk and/or insane, Arcane Swordsage can be a fantastic gish.
Pretty much self-qualifies for JPM, too.

For a Warblade/Wizard combo starting at lvl 13, I'm fond of Warblade 3 / Wizard 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 / JPM 1. Your BAB and CL is 11, your IL is 8 and you have 7 levels ahead of you that grant you both spellcasting and initiator levels.

Of course, going with as many true caster levels as possible is the most powerful option mechanically, but where's the fun in that? (for me, YMMV)

[Malak'ai]

You're not taking Abjurant Champion 5 or Jade Phoenix Mage, but you're losing a caster level from Eldritch Knight? That's not a super great idea, in my opinion. Don't forget that JPM is full base attack and full casting, and you qualify by default: the requirements are a stance, two maneuvers, second-level arcane spells, two ranks each in K(history), (arcana) and (religion), and 9 ranks Concentration - all stuff you'll have anyway (you're int-based - you should have 1 rank in each knowledge anyway, and Concentration drives excellent maneuvers and spellcasting in combat).

In addition, you lose a full spell level by going warblade 4/wizard 3/abjurant champion 4 instead of warblade 2/wizard 6/abjurant champion 3, which just isn't worth it.

Remember to take your warblade levels late, after the wizard levels, to get higher-levelled maneuvers (IL 4 and 5 if you take them after wizard 6). You lose a few skill points, though.

As I said, it was just an idea rolling around in my head. I've read quite a few topics where the Eldritch Knight has ben recomended.

In saying that, I have decided to go with JPM instead .

Malak'ai

Something to check with your DM on because its a weird issue with ToB; by the rules as written Warblade only gets martial melee weapons (like sword sage) but EK requires all martial weapons. The DMs I know hand wave this to be all martial weapons OR consider it good enough to get into EK or SpellSword.

Reason I was saying to check with your DM about SpellSword is because its such a default one level dip in gish builds because there is no downside to dipping into it.

ExLibrisMortis
Wizard 6 / Crusader 1 / SpellSword 1 works out mechanically better than 2 levels warblade as it gives you an extra caster level. Just food for though for your next Gish. (Crusader gets all martial weapons, unlike sword sage and war blade).

Yeah, the DM is pretty easy going on those sort of things. As long as you're proficient in the weapon you're using he doesn't really have a problem.

I know, but Malak'ai requested a warblade gish.

Thank you .

I know people are extreamly eager to help that they sometimes gloss over what the OP has ask for; and I love reading about different build ideas/class combo's, but it is nice when someone re-iterates the OP's wishes.

Just to make it 100% crystal clear, that last statement wasn't meant to be negitive in any way. I do truely really enjoy reading up on all build idea's and trying to figure out their tricks .


PS: Happy New Years everyone, and please forgive any spelling/ grammatical errors. I have been consuming adult beverages for most of the day, am I'm dyslexic to boot, so I think I've done pretty well for only being able to see out of one eye with my tongue hanging out the opposite side of my mouth .

[John Longarrow]

So far the most potent build I've worked out is
L1 Warblade(1) Feats: Iron Will (required for Dragon Slayer) + Able Learner (Makes it easier to get required skills)
L2 Wizard(1)
L3 Wizard(2) Feat Combat Casting (Required for Abj Champ)
L4 Wizard(3)
L5 Wizard(4)
L6 Warblade(2) Feat Dodge (Required for Dragon Slayer)
L7 SpellSword(1) (Requires only a BAB of 4)
L8 DragonSlayer(1)
L9 Abjurant Champion(1) Feat Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge)
L10 Abjurant Champion(2)
L11 Abjurant Champion(3)
L12 Abjurant Champion(4) Feat - Any...
L13 Abjurant Champion(5)

This gives you both a BAB and CL of 11. Spellsword gives you both BAB, CL, and decent HPs. Dragon Slayer gives you BAB, CL, decent HPs, and immunity to fear. Getting three attacks a round and casting 6th level spells makes for a very nasty gish. I put in Able Learner since the different prestige classes have enough odd skill requirements that not paying double for them lets you still have skill points for other useful skills.

[Fouredged Sword]

.

This seems the best build if you do not intend to go into JPM.

It is hard to do a warblade gish build without JPM as JPM is the only initiator focused gish class. You can go normal gish with a dash of warblade, but that to me doesn't feel like a gish.

[John Longarrow]

JPM looses caster levels as 1st and 6th. I was trying to offset those losses as much as possible. I've always tried to build a Gish that has equal fighting and casting ability. Its hard to find a good reason to take an initiator level over a caster level.

[Fouredged Sword]

JPM looses caster levels as 1st and 6th. I was trying to offset those losses as much as possible. I've always tried to build a Gish that has equal fighting and casting ability. Its hard to find a good reason to take an initiator level over a caster level.

The definition of a "Gish" is a character who gets both +16 bab (and thus +16/+11/+6/+1, meaning only static bonuses away from a full BAB full attack) while still receiving 9th level spells.

This means you can lose 3 caster levels on a wizard chassis or 2 on a sorcerer chassis. Warblade 1 and two lost to JPM fits the bill nicely. The problem is that no other PRC advances both arcane casting AND maneuvers.

While generally Wizard 20 > Gish from a pure power perspective, gishing is fun and effective.

[Endarire]

Wizard5/Warblade1/Jade Phoenix Mage2/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Finish JPM. This way, you get L9 spells, 16 BAB, and maneuvers of higher levels.

[atemu1234]

Wizard5/Warblade1/Jade Phoenix Mage2/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Finish JPM. This way, you get L9 spells, 16 BAB, and maneuvers of higher levels.

But what type of Wizard? Abjurers are nice with Abjurant Champion, but Transmutation has Polymorph.

[John Longarrow]

But what type of Wizard? Abjurers are nice with Abjurant Champion, but Transmutation has Polymorph.

That's the beauty of wizards, you can be what ever kind you need to be depending on the situation. Be a diviner ahead of time so you know more about what you will face, be BFC when you need, be blasty when you need, ect...

There is a reason they call wizards the batman of the game. They can prepare for anything. Course they do need to prepare properly. I've always felt specialization should be for sorcerers instead of wizards. The whole point of being a wizard is versatility.

[MisterKaws]

Just to add to what everyone has said: You can (ab)use Heroics to get maneuvers known/extra slots, which can be changed anytime you want just by throwing in another casting, and a cheap one at that.

[Endarire]

Transmutation (for buff slots) and Conjuration (for Abrupt Jaunt) and Gray Elf Generalist (for bonus slots and Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat) are all viable.