George Lucas's take on Disney's direction of the franchise

[MCerberus]

Season 6 of Clone Wars made me so mad.
I don't...I'd have to watch it again for like a Let's Watch or something (it's on Netflix, I can watch it). Because I remember the first time I was watching it (especially the opening 3 episodes) I was yelling at my TV, and it's a rare thing that I yell at fictional characters who I know can't hear me.

I had long since stopped watching, that was in the weird time where episodes were releasing but CN was in the process of losing the rights to the series right?

[Cheesegear]

I had long since stopped watching, that was in the weird time where episodes were releasing but CN was in the process of losing the rights to the series right?

Maybe?
There are a lot of gems (like, way more than I though there'd be) within the Clone Wars series. Unfortunately, there's also a lot of filler episodes. With Netflix, you can cut all the filler and just watch the good episodes... I don't think there are any good episodes in S6, literally none of them.

[Eldariel]

No kidding? The only theatrical release version of the DVDs I could find was going for $259 on Amazon.

I think you should be able to get the limited edition DVDs for ~20-50 euros per movie, depending on how you feel about buying from auctions. I've actually been tracking them for the purposes of getting a set myself. Ebay seems like the cheapest way, though those prices are higher than few months ago when I last checked too.

[Legato Endless]

Actually, I think monopoly is so popular because it's not a game for adults -- at least, not as most people play it. It's an "all-ages" family game, like candyland. It gives the littles the opportunity to sit at the table and have a chance of beating people many times their age and experience fairly. Like candyland in that respect, in which the player has no agency whatsoever save drawing a card which dictates your precise move.

Family style games are great. But...candyland takes like 10 minutes tops. The average 4-9 year old I know doesn't want to sit through a whole game of monopoly.

We also needed conflicts that would fill time and engage the audience before Darth Vader turned to the dark side and produce the actual, crucial conflict of the PT.

No we didn't. We could have just leapt right into that. A good crunch of classical tragedies start with the protagonist on the precipice at the zenith of their glory about to plummet, twisting in the wind between opposing forces before the fall. We don't need to spend time with them milling about below.

Film 1 could be about Anakin the Jedi paragon being seduced by something (so many things can change the nature of a man) to the Dark Side and the break down of the Republic. Film 2 could be about the war between factions of the Republic before the Empire rose. Because this can take years or a day as Lucas chose. Obi-wan and Vader face off now as opposing sides in a fight for the soul of the galaxy. Film 3 is the scattering and dissolution as Vader hunts down the remaining Jedi and cements Imperial rule, but the seeds of the rebellion and hidden bases are sown as Senators like Organa struggle against tyranny in secret, having lost the contest of pure force.

Or you could do it another way. There is no reason for example, why you couldn't have Anakin and Padme already married before the beginning of the first film. There are multitudes of ways you could tell the story of Vader and the Republic's fall if that's what you wanted to focus on in a trilogy.

[VoxRationis]

No we didn't. We could have just leapt right into that. A good crunch of classical tragedies start with the protagonist on the precipice at the zenith of their glory about to plummet, twisting in the wind between opposing forces before the fall. We don't need to spend time with them milling about below.

Film 1 could be about Anakin the Jedi paragon being seduced by something (so many things can change the nature of a man) to the Dark Side and the break down of the Republic. Film 2 could be about the war between factions of the Republic before the Empire rose. Because this can take years or a day as Lucas chose. Obi-wan and Vader face off now as opposing sides in a fight for the soul of the galaxy. Film 3 is the scattering and dissolution as Vader hunts down the remaining Jedi and cements Imperial rule, but the seeds of the rebellion and hidden bases are sown as Senators like Organa struggle against tyranny in secret, having lost the contest of pure force.

Or you could do it another way. There is no reason for example, why you couldn't have Anakin and Padme already married before the beginning of the first film. There are multitudes of ways you could tell the story of Vader and the Republic's fall if that's what you wanted to focus on in a trilogy.

First off, I feel confident in saying that we'd be hearing even more complaining if we got treated to an earlier time in the story of Anakin Skywalker that didn't provide insight into why he betrayed his friend and mentor, not to mention the entire Jedi Order and the Republic. People don't just do that.
Secondly, the standards of classical drama are not great things to go by; like many arts and sciences, drama has improved over 2000+ years of development. The developers of the ancient plays thought that having an omniscient chorus summarizing everything for the audience and having a deity solve everything at the last minute were good aspects of script-writing.
Thirdly, having the relevant character developments (Vader's seduction to evil) already happen before the movie makes the entire movie a documentary on the war strategies of Vader and the Emperor, rather than the character-driven story we expect from a Star Wars film.

[BannedInSchool]

So only sell from a position of strength and never trade straight across.

Unless you're doomed and then you can sell all your properties to someone for $1 as a hearty FU to someone else who wouldn't deal with you.

[Dragonus45]

Spoiler

Show

George Lucas, you did this.

Not to nitpick, well actually yes to nitpick but the outfit was her idea.

[Legato Endless]

First off, I feel confident in saying that we'd be hearing even more complaining if we got treated to an earlier time in the story of Anakin Skywalker that didn't provide insight into why he betrayed his friend and mentor, not to mention the entire Jedi Order and the Republic. People don't just do that.

Insight isn't obviated by showing the fall in movie 1. If anything, it's usually brought into crystal clear relief because it becomes the primary subject, as opposed to nattering about with all thing other stuff. Knowing why someone falls simply requires an explanation of the current circumstances and their defining traits interact. That doesn't require a prelude, just some focused writing.

Secondly, the standards of classical drama are not great things to go by; like many arts and sciences, drama has improved over 2000+ years of development.

This is still a predominant model of tragedy and Byronic heroes in cinema because most movies don't have a trilogy to wander around explaining the downfall. People still watch Shakespeare and find it perfectly compelling. It worked fine in Dr. Horrible. For a different medium, Warcraft 3 manages a better transition for Arthas, and it doesn't require the viewer seeing anything beforehand. The Dark Knight gives us a perfectly fetching fall for Two-Face, and we didn't need to see anything but the immediate preceding circumstances, and that was a subplot. Throne of Blood is still perfectly watchable a few decades later. This is a tried and true structural model. Anakin can be easily established and fall all within 2 hours with plenty of explanation.

Thirdly, having the relevant character developments (Vader's seduction to evil) already happen before the movie makes the entire movie a documentary on the war strategies of Vader and the Emperor, rather than the character-driven story we expect from a Star Wars film.

I assume you're talking about my proposed film 2?

No it wouldn't. The protagonist falls in Godfather Part I. In Part II, we see him develop further and continue his fall and failure to atone and it doesn't devolve into a dry strategic run as he deals with his enemies. Just because Lucas used a psychologically simplistic model for Vader doesn't mean we have to. Anakin has plenty of room to go in various directions after he decides the Republic must die, unless we're going with the unconvincing model that the Dark Side just alters in 5 seconds instead of a long slow conflicted degradation.

Perhaps Anakin, now fully unchained from Republic loyalty and full of revolutionary vigor takes on an apprentice in Film 2, and through this relationship becomes more personable even as he does more extreme things. The once aloof paragon becomes an approachable bloodied idealist. But then circumstances conspire against this bond and he loses the paternal bond he was beginning to establish with Not!Ahsoka. Because just because Sideous follows the classic Sith model doesn't mean our hero must. Or maybe Anakin meets and falls in love in Film 2 or 3. That makes Padme as much more complex character than what we were given, though it isn't necessary. Perhaps his defeat against Obi-wan despite his just cause and the power of Dark Side leave him embittered and hollow. Perhaps the leaving of his wife and every friend isolates him. Then as he hunts down the last remaining Jedi we see a cold despair as all he has left is to bring order to the galaxy. Not to mention Obi-wan and other people will also be moving around here, and getting character development. War documentary? Hardly.

The thing about characters is we can make aspects of them more human while other aspects become less as time goes on. People can be complex, conflicted and contradictory and that's what makes them fascinating. You can play around with the confluence of personality traits that were mostly reduced to a single final transition in the PT. That has much greater potential than well I have to save my wife from that dream so yeah I'll serve you...*5 minutes later*...off to kill the younglings.

And that's assuming you want Anakin as your focal point. You could have him be aloof and indecipherable and have the surrounding characters attempt to discern his motivations and state. This is probably too artistic here and it wouldn't be my first instinct but you could really set audiences and forums spinning with the mystery and debate and personal internalization here. Less can be more.

There isn't one way to do anything in writing.

[VoxRationis]

Insight isn't obviated by showing the fall in movie 1. If anything, it's usually brought into crystal clear relief because it becomes the primary subject, as opposed to nattering about with all thing other stuff. Knowing why someone falls simply requires an explanation of the current circumstances and their defining traits interact. That doesn't require a prelude, just some focused writing.

Yes, you can put it in the title crawl.

STAR WARS
Episode 1
Anakin Skywalker, having experienced emotional turmoil, a growing desire to save those he loves from the inevitable, and disillusionment with the Jedi Order, is about to turn to the Dark Side...

I'm not seeing it.

This is still a predominant model of tragedy and Byronic heroes in cinema because most movies don't have a trilogy to wander around explaining the downfall. People still watch Shakespeare and find it perfectly compelling. It worked fine in Dr. Horrible. For a different medium, Warcraft 3 manages a better transition for Arthas, and it doesn't require the viewer seeing anything beforehand.

Dr. Horrible doesn't really fall until the end of his film, though the fall starts at the end of Act 2. It's shorter than the prequel trilogy, but the development happens at similar points in the narrative. In Warcraft 3, the player is treated to many levels of Arthas struggling against the weight of the Scourge's numbers and see him gradually react, bit by bit, with increasing severity, until his full "fall" happens at the very end of his campaign. The moment where he becomes an unabashed villain is very much at the end of his story, and is very much dependent on the context of the preceding internal and external conflict. Sure, those works in particular don't take as long as the prequel trilogy (assuming you don't count gameplay time for Warcraft 3), but they still happen with the hero's fall occurring at the end of a work whose preceding time was spent establishing the context for that fall.

[Legato Endless]

Yes, you can put it in the title crawl.

You could, but that would be a different story.

STAR WARS
Episode 1
Anakin Skywalker, having experienced emotional turmoil, a growing desire to save those he loves from the inevitable, and disillusionment with the Jedi Order, is about to turn to the Dark Side...

I'm not seeing it.

Heh. I'm not saying Anakin falls within the first 5 minutes. I'm saying he falls as the chief subject matter of film 1. Then we get you know, we get an actual exploration of Vader's psyche. Something that isn't children's notes of psychology. If you're going to have a 6 hour trilogy about a tragic decline, I would like a little depth. Also, pushing the big corruption moment to the very end is actually counterproductive, because your don't let the audience or narrative breathe with the newly transformed character.

Dr. Horrible doesn't really fall until the end of his film, though the fall starts at the end of Act 2. It's shorter than the prequel trilogy, but the development happens at similar points in the narrative.

The fall isn't a single moment. Billie begins establishing his potential and flaws that leave him vulnerable to the fall. Then he starts slipping towards it. Then he gives in to despair. Then in the illusive promised sequel, we'll see further development.

In Warcraft 3, the player is treated to many levels of Arthas struggling against the weight of the Scourge's numbers and see him gradually react, bit by bit, with increasing severity, until his full "fall" happens at the very end of his campaign. The moment where he becomes an unabashed villain is very much at the end of his story, and is very much dependent on the context of the preceding internal and external conflict.

So you haven't seen the Godfather trilogy?

But yes, as I already said, that makes for a good formula. For movie 1.

In Breaking Bad, Walt has already become a very nasty piece of work before the final season. Yet that's considered one of the gold standards of television drama.

Sure, those works in particular don't take as long as the prequel trilogy (assuming you don't count gameplay time for Warcraft 3), but they still happen with the hero's fall occurring at the end of a work whose preceding time was spent establishing the context for that fall.

No, because Episode 1 of the PT is superfluous. It has nothing to do with Anakin's fall because he's reintroduced in Episode 2 as a different character, changed by the last decade. The only things we get in 1 is a childish crush you really should snip out of the chief romance (it adds a strange unstable element which, while rife for explanation, is subsequently largely ignored in the context of his fall). Hell, his former slave status really isn't explored either in the subsequent movies either. Pretty much like, everything we learn in Phantom Menace has little to do with Anakin as a person later, except for a meet cute and he has a mother for three scenes. Yay. Pretty sure we don't need a movie to establish that.

[themaque]

You wanna make monopoly playable?, play Ticket to Ride.

Close, and a good suggestion for a family game.

Want to build buildings, make money, and be a greedy jerk but having FUN? Play Lords of Vegas

Want to build property, make money, but be a shrewd negotiator making deals? Play CHINATOWN

Don't bother breaking out Monopoly unless you REALLY want to get your super special "look it's just for me" edition commemorating puppy dogs or Doctor Who or you just really like the Top Hat.


As Far as Lucas Goes.... yeah, I just find it sad these days. He's a NICE guy, incredibly creative, but not a great film maker. Did anyone else see Strange Magic? -shudders-

He DOES have talent, but he needed limitations and outside input to turn his weak iron into steel. He helped change the way movies are made.

The worst part about Disney buying up all the Lucas Property is that we will probably never get another Monkey Island as it's to similar to their Pirates of the Caribbean property.

[Foeofthelance]

Personally, I'd do it something like this:

Episode 1: Young Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker has just graduated from Padawan status. His first assignment is body guarding Padme, a rising star of the Republic's Senate, but who has recently become the focus of several terrorist attacks because of a rising Separatist movement. Meanwhile, his teacher turned friend, Obi Wan Kenobi, investigates the shadowy origins of the Separatists, and discovers that they are being manipulated by an ancient evil believed to have been long vanquished. Anakin encounters Palpatine, who encourages the young Jedi to break with the Order's traditions of avoiding personal entanglements and instead pursue a relationship with Padme. Tie it together with a thwarted kidnapping/murder attempt on Padme that brings Obi Wan and Anakin back together and gives Anakin a chance to be all heroic while trading witty banter with Obi Wan.

Episode 2: Minor acts of terrorism have blossomed into full on rebellion. The war is not going well, for though the Separatists are heavily outnumbered, they are well armed and always seem to know the Republic's plans before the Republic does. Only the Republic's secret, clone-based military project and the Jedi have allowed the Republic to maintain any momentum at all. Having successfully demonstrated his abilities as a Jedi Knight as well as successfully hiding his affair with Padme from the Jedi Council, Anakin now finds himself torn between the increasing burdens of leadership during war and protecting the woman he loves from the conspiracy that has been trying to kill her. The only two men who know his secret are Obi Wan, who has agreed to keep silent for the sake of their friendship, and Senator Palpatine, the man who has helped arrange many of their midnight rendezvous. He decides it would be best if he just comes clean about everything, but before he can his long time friend Obi Wan discovers that one of the oldest serving members of the Jedi Council, a Count Dooku, is also the long unknown leader of the Separatists. The pair set off to confront the Count, and fearing other possible traitors Anakin insists Padme accompany them. Shortly before the fighting, Padme reveals that she is pregnant, only to be moderately wounded during the fighting. This freaks Anakin way the hell out.

Episode 3: Padme's pregnancy forces a separation between her and Anakin, who is given a series of increasingly dangerous missions by the Jedi Council. Driven mad by future visions of her painful death, he leaves her in the care of now Chancellor Palpatine, who begins to slowly poison the young woman, prompting more visions... Meanwhile, fearing more traitors, the Council calls Obi Wan to testify on some of Anakin's more bizarre behavior over the past few movies. Obi Wan honors the oath he swore to Anakin, and refuses to tell them the truth, resulting in his own house arrest by the Council. With no other choice, they send a team of freshly promoted Knights to detain Anakin and bring him in for questioning. Anakin refuses to cooperate with them, and they prove no match for battle hardened Master. The survivors flee, quickly reporting back to the Council that Anakin has now killed several Jedi. Obi Wan has spent this time reviewing all the material he can get his hands on, accounts controlled by Dooku, where the Clone Army came from, etc., and discovers that Palpatine has truly been behind it all. He goes and rescues Padme first, hoping to bring her to the safety of the Council before he presents his evidence. He runs off with her shortly before Anakin and Palpatine arrive at the estate where she is being kept. Palpatine shows Anakin all the doctored evidence he's been creating, and Anakin runs off to confront Obi Wan. While they duel, Palpatine orders the execution of Order 66. Obi Wan defeats Anakin, leaving him for dead on Mustafar, but its too late to save the rest of the Jedi. Only handful survive, masters such as Yoda, and they quickly go into hiding. Padme goes into labor, but without any medical assistance dies from blood loss, living just long enough to wrest an oath from Obi Wan that he'll protect her children from their father.

[Reddish Mage]

Maybe?
There are a lot of gems (like, way more than I though there'd be) within the Clone Wars series. Unfortunately, there's also a lot of filler episodes. With Netflix, you can cut all the filler and just watch the good episodes... I don't think there are any good episodes in S6, literally none of them.

Now if only there was a list of only the good ones...

Not to nitpick, well actually yes to nitpick but the outfit was her idea.

I said it was a joke and she enthusiastically embraced the outfit. However, it wasn't exactly her idea. She complained to Lucas that "she looked like a boy" and wanted a more feminine costume for "Return of the Jedi." Lucas got a big grin on his face and told her she would like what he had for her. He explained the idea of Jabba's Palace to the costume designer "with a twinkle in his eye."

Basically, Lucas's ideas, a designer's execution, and maybe Carrie Fisher provided some inspiration.

Family style games are great. But...candyland takes like 10 minutes tops. The average 4-9 year old I know doesn't want to sit through a whole game of monopoly.

That was why Monopoly was rejected at first. However, it sold very well independently and then it became the #1 board game forever.

No we didn't. We could have just leapt right into that. A good crunch of classical tragedies start with the protagonist on the precipice at the zenith of their glory about to plummet, twisting in the wind between opposing forces before the fall. We don't need to spend time with them milling about below.

Film 1 could be about Anakin the Jedi paragon being seduced by something (so many things can change the nature of a man) to the Dark Side and the break down of the Republic. Film 2 could be about the war between factions of the Republic before the Empire rose. Because this can take years or a day as Lucas chose. Obi-wan and Vader face off now as opposing sides in a fight for the soul of the galaxy. Film 3 is the scattering and dissolution as Vader hunts down the remaining Jedi and cements Imperial rule, but the seeds of the rebellion and hidden bases are sown as Senators like Organa struggle against tyranny in secret, having lost the contest of pure force.

Or you could do it another way. There is no reason for example, why you couldn't have Anakin and Padme already married before the beginning of the first film. There are multitudes of ways you could tell the story of Vader and the Republic's fall if that's what you wanted to focus on in a trilogy.

A lot of what I have against the franchise is not where it started its focus but how the emotionless celibate Jedi start out at the forefront in Episode 1 and how they dominate the prequels. Obi-Wan himself doesn't get really interesting until Episode 3... I guess he took after Anakin.

However, from Kotor and other evidence it seems to me that the Jedi were always envisioned like that. Too bad, I for one, would like to see stories about the Jedi learning to love and stop being stiffs...or never having to learn the lesson in the first place.

[Legato Endless]

Now if only there was a list of only the good ones...

I've seen a few listings online. I'd make one assuming this isn't tongue in cheek.

That was why Monopoly was rejected at first. However, it sold very well independently and then it became the #1 board game forever.

It sold well in the themed board game equivalent of a drought. It had no competition then. And even if we restrict our listing to traditional board games with a century plus history, Chess and Go are much more lucrative and far and away more popular.

A lot of what I have against the franchise is not where it started its focus but how the emotionless celibate Jedi start out at the forefront in Episode 1 and how they dominate the prequels. Obi-Wan himself doesn't get really interesting until Episode 3... I guess he took after Anakin.

However, from Kotor and other evidence it seems to me that the Jedi were always envisioned like that. Too bad, I for one, would like to see stories about the Jedi learning to love and stop being stiffs...or never having to learn the lesson in the first place.

Yeah, the whole warrior-peace maker-philosopher monks who can have sex but never get tied in relationships has always sounded like some weird adolescent kink of the Lucas' he foisted on the world once he didn't have editors. The Jedi being a monolithic organization is also dramatically dull. Getting to see factions argue with each other about life, the universe, and everything is one of the things that makes politics in fiction actually interesting.

[Reddish Mage]

I've seen a few listings online. I'd make one assuming this isn't tongue in cheek.

I am totally serious. I was just starting to watch the franchise on Netflix on a recommendation after I was disappointed with what I dropped in on when I flipped to it during its run. So far, I like what I see.

It sold well in the themed board game equivalent of a drought. It had no competition then. And even if we restrict our listing to traditional board games with a century plus history, Chess and Go are much more lucrative and far and away more popular.

Chess and Go are hundreds or thousands of year old "board games" and not what people think of. Monopoly is and has always been the #1 proprietary board game, and still, of the hundreds of popular board games, being #3 for nearly a century ain't bad.

Yeah, the whole warrior-peace maker-philosopher monks who can have sex but never get tied in relationships has always sounded like some weird adolescent kink of the Lucas' he foisted on the world once he didn't have editors. The Jedi being a monolithic organization is also dramatically dull. Getting to see factions argue with each other about life, the universe, and everything is one of the things that makes politics in fiction actually interesting.

Wait they can have sex?

Still, I'm not sure about this adolescent fetish theory...Star Wars roleplay usually doesn't involve Jedi Robes.

[The Glyphstone]

I am totally serious. I was just starting to watch the franchise on Netflix on a recommendation after I was disappointed with what I dropped in on when I flipped to it during its run. So far, I like what I see.



Chess and Go are hundreds or thousands of year old "board games" and not what people think of. Monopoly is and has always been the #1 proprietary board game, and still, of the hundreds of popular board games, being #3 for nearly a century ain't bad.



Wait they can have sex?

Still, I'm not sure about this adolescent fetish theory...Star Wars roleplay usually doesn't involve Jedi Robes.

I put on my robe and Jedi hat?

[Legato Endless]

I am totally serious. I was just starting to watch the franchise on Netflix on a recommendation after I was disappointed with what I dropped in on when I flipped to it during its run. So far, I like what I see.

Oh, well then. I'll go take a gander at the episode listings.

Wait they can have sex?

Still, I'm not sure about this adolescent fetish theory...Star Wars roleplay usually doesn't involve Jedi Robes.

Yeah they totally can. They're just forbidden from being tied down or getting 'too involved.' There's actually an episode in Clone Wars that references this.

Which is why it sounds adolescent to me. I mean more fetish for Lucas than the fans. Free love no attachment badass symbols of enlightenment just sounds like something he'd power fantasize about.

[VoxRationis]

I can see why it's there, though. Force sensitivity is partially hereditary (although strangely, not matrilineally, as one would expect for something which canonically derives from intracellular symbiotes), so if they had a "no sex" rule and continually searched for all the promising Force-sensitives through the galaxy, after a while the Jedi would effectively breed out their own recruitment base. (Actually, for a while I went with the idea that that was what they were trying to do—the founders of the Order must have come to the conclusion that Force sensitivity just leads to an endless cycle of Dark Side-Light Side conflict, and instituted an organization with the long-term goal of eliminating it.)

As for people who are criticizing the Jedi for being too emotionally stiff, I think the best analogy to draw is to the Circle of Magi in Dragon Age. Falling to the Dark Side of the Force is a little like becoming demonically possessed—you gain a power surge and go on a destructive campaign (either subtle or direct), often destroying your friends and loved ones. And how does one go about falling to the Dark Side? Through indulging common emotions like anger, hate, and fear—natural reactions people have to the trials and tribulations of everyday life, especially where things like personal possessions or romantic relationships are involved. People don't ask to become Force sensitive, and you can start doing stuff with the Force without proper training, and thus can probably fall to the Dark Side without training as well. So an organization is developed to round up people born with this hereditary quality which can so easily lead to people along the lines of Sidious or Vader, keep them under mutual observation, train them in the use of their powers, and instill them with an ideology and upbringing which distances them from the things which could set them off. Is the Jedi Order the best possible way to deal with the problem? Maybe not: like the Circle of Magi, it has its flaws, and in a few cases has ironically driven its members into becoming what they were trying to prevent. But it's effective most of the time (a slip-up per generation per GALAXY isn't a bad success/failure ratio), and it represents a logical way to approach the problem.

[Reddish Mage]

As for people who are criticizing the Jedi for being too emotionally stiff


And how does one go about falling to the Dark Side? Through indulging common emotions like anger, hate, and fear—natural reactions people have to the trials and tribulations of everyday life, especially where things like personal possessions or romantic relationships are involved.

So an organization is developed to round up people born with this hereditary quality which can so easily lead to people along the lines of Sidious or Vader, keep them under mutual observation, train them in the use of their powers, and instill them with an ideology and upbringing which distances them from the things which could set them off.

You are talking about logical solution to an in-universe problem. I am asking about two things:

1) What do the Jedi actually forbid as far as love and sex and emotions go and how long have the Jedi been written of this way?

2) Is there a better way to write the Jedi so they accomplish their purpose as enlightened sages, noble knights, and religious mystics, without resorting to such extremes as "there is no emotion."

The closest analogue I can see are the Hong Kong action films filled with Buddhists, and even the more enlightened masters come in many shapes and sizes (and of course the stories like to focus on the young boy with a destiny and heart on his sleeve).

[Cheesegear]

1) What do the Jedi actually forbid as far as love and sex and emotions go and how long have the Jedi been written of this way?

"Jedis can have sex if they want to." - George Lucas, 2008.

What they can't do, is form emotional bonds. You can, indeed, have sex without emotion. Jedis aren't allowed to fall in love. Presumably, if they have children (yes, you can have children without being married), they're not allowed to love said children. I imagine that "I am your father." scenes happen all the time, because father-and-son Jedis would probably never even know that the other exists.

Celibacy is not a thing that the Order actually enforces, but it is encouraged. Because sex is habit forming.

[Dragonus45]

I always thought of the jedi code as being a code that existed more to ensure the world was safe from what they could do if they turned evil than something meant to be good for the jedi themselves. Like, assume that even if the code is restrictive and not everyone who follows it really finds that inner peace to make it enjoyable but in the end only a couple force users trained as jedi, not sure on exact numbers but it seems very rare in eras when the sith aren't around, ever turn to the dark side, that's still much better rates than you get when force users are forced to fend for themselves or, force forbid, find themselves following one of the several with codes which may not be inherently evil they do tend to have the opposite effect of the jedi code. They exist to help make sure the force user is free and able to make their own choices whenever they want for any reason... and they pretty much all fall to the dark side. Only a rare few individuals could follow those codes with the self discipline required to hold off the dark side, where as the jedi are all about forcing you to have that self discipline above all else and just hoping you can find fulfillment along the way.

[t209]

"Jedis can have sex if they want to." - George Lucas, 2008.

What they can't do, is form emotional bonds. You can, indeed, have sex without emotion. Jedis aren't allowed to fall in love. Presumably, if they have children (yes, you can have children without being married), they're not allowed to love said children. I imagine that "I am your father." scenes happen all the time, because father-and-son Jedis would probably never even know that the other exists.

Celibacy is not a thing that the Order actually enforces, but it is encouraged. Because sex is habit forming.

Well, there was a work that explained that big headed guy having multiple wives and tons of kids thought explained re population as motiff.
That doesn't even unseat him from council.

[Some Android]

Spoiler

Show

George Lucas, you did this.

See you write that as if the accompanying image is in some way negative.

[comicshorse]

"Jedis can have sex if they want to." - George Lucas, 2008.

What they can't do, is form emotional bonds. You can, indeed, have sex without emotion. Jedis aren't allowed to fall in love. Presumably, if they have children (yes, you can have children without being married), they're not allowed to love said children. I imagine that "I am your father." scenes happen all the time, because father-and-son Jedis would probably never even know that the other exists.

Though of course this does create loads of kids with abandonment issues, full of anger that their Father never loved them and all Force capable. Can't see how that could go wrong

[Kato]

No, because Episode 1 of the PT is superfluous. It has nothing to do with Anakin's fall because he's reintroduced in Episode 2 as a different character, changed by the last decade. The only things we get in 1 is a childish crush you really should snip out of the chief romance (it adds a strange unstable element which, while rife for explanation, is subsequently largely ignored in the context of his fall). Hell, his former slave status really isn't explored either in the subsequent movies either. Pretty much like, everything we learn in Phantom Menace has little to do with Anakin as a person later, except for a meet cute and he has a mother for three scenes. Yay. Pretty sure we don't need a movie to establish that.

Uhm, except Anakin being far too old to be trained is a major part of the story, because initially growing up "normal" and then being taken from your mother and made to be a monk is part of what screws him up. Also, having a crush but never anyone talk to you about how you handle feelings of love and lust because the Jedi don't accept these things is what turns a crush into the crazy obsession he has later.
Sure you can just put that into the opening crawl or, I don't know, flashback it into the movie or something, but while PM has a bunch of bad things, establishing Anakin's origins is not one of them.

[MLai]

Personally, I'd do it something like this...

My problem with that is, it's a better re-write of a turd. No one can turn a turd into a gem, simply a better-written version of turd.

Anakin Skywalker, great Jedi, becomes a cartoon villain because he gets visions of his illegitimate wife dying... Okay, the primary motivation is just stupid. You can't salvage this.

Just because Lucas wrote that turd, doesn't mean it's sacred. Legato_Endless is right; if we are talking hypothetical re-writes, we should go all the way and aspire to greatness.

Uhm, except Anakin being far too old to be trained is a major part of the story...

I love TPM (in terms of if I had to choose 1 movie out of the PT), but I disagree. Legato is right: TPM is unnecessary. You are arguing from the standpoint of in-universe explanations, and treating Lucas' turd ideas as prerequisites.

[Bulldog Psion]

Yes, it's definitely necessary to toss the first three and start over.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

"Jedis can have sex if they want to." - George Lucas, 2008.

What they can't do, is form emotional bonds. You can, indeed, have sex without emotion. Jedis aren't allowed to fall in love. Presumably, if they have children (yes, you can have children without being married), they're not allowed to love said children. I imagine that "I am your father." scenes happen all the time, because father-and-son Jedis would probably never even know that the other exists.

Celibacy is not a thing that the Order actually enforces, but it is encouraged. Because sex is habit forming.

I now will put every commitment phobia guy I every dated in jedi robes in my mind... "I would marry you baby, but the counsel says it has to be just casual sex..."

[McStabbington]

I now will put every commitment phobia guy I every dated in jedi robes in my mind... "I would marry you baby, but the counsel says it has to be just casual sex..."

I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing the Unfortunate Implications in that statement. It's perhaps a little easier to dissociate sex from any form of attachment if you don't face the very real possibility of having to gestate the consequences of that attachment-free action for most of the next year. Or for that matter worry that the child you refuse to attach yourself to will have Force powers and some legitimate anger issues if they live to adulthood. And it really doesn't help that the Order from what we saw was probably 95% guys.

I think it's fair to say Lucas might not have gamed out the consequences of some of this.

[Legato Endless]

I now will put every commitment phobia guy I every dated in jedi robes in my mind... "I would marry you baby, but the counsel says it has to be just casual sex..."

+1

MLai already well summarized the meta issue, but I'll respond anyway to the in universe perspective.

Uhm, except Anakin being far too old to be trained is a major part of the story, because initially growing up "normal" and then being taken from your mother and made to be a monk is part of what screws him up.

Which is honestly kind of weird. Being raised from birth by a group of emotionally distant, privacy invasive, ideologically motivated sect that downplays meaningful connections should if anything, screw you up more than the guy who entered later on after having a comparatively decent childhood with a supportive mature parent. Yes, there'd be adjustment issues, but those seem minor compared to never knowing a real parental relationship. And by comparatively decent, while Anakin was enslaved, he had hobbies, friends and possessions. Luxuries you aren't guaranteed as a Jedi.

Also, having a crush but never anyone talk to you about how you handle feelings of love and lust because the Jedi don't accept these things is what turns a crush into the crazy obsession he has later.

Ah, but that isn't established in PM. Anakin's decade long fixation on Padme and his inability to talk about it is first depicted in the elevator scene in AotC. PM only shows us he thinks Padme is pretty. Which isn't necessary for the elevator scene to spell out everything you just stated. Unless you think Anakin's history makes him more liable for this kind of behavior, which I find questionable.