Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 149
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2016

    Default Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    So, Episode I came on my TV today while I was doing homework, and for some reason I didn't immediately change the channel. I'm glad I didn't, because in addition to giving me an excuse to "take a break" from my assignment, I came to a surprising realization: The movie isn't actually THAT bad!

    Here are my thoughts after watching the movie (which just ended for me minutes ago):

    1.) Jar-Jar Binks remains annoying, but even at his worst he doesn't approach "movie-ruining" levels of annoyance. Honestly, he comes off very much as this movie's C-3PO--naive in some respects, trying too hard to be the comedic relief in others, but largely not a huge pro or con for the movie's overall level of enjoyment (note: I'm sure some people love C-3PO and hate that I just compared him to Jar-Jar. To be clear, I'm not saying they're EXACTLY alike, I'm just saying the role they serve in their respective films isn't THAT dissimilar).

    2.) The special effects haven't aged that well, but it's not an overwhelming hurdle to get over. Yoda should have remained a puppet, though.

    3.) Midochlorians and Anakin's "virgin birth" are still cringe-inducing. Thankfully, they don't actually come up that often during the movie--the scene between Qui-Gon and Anakin's mother, as well as the scene where Qui-Gon first informs the council about Anakin's existence, but that's about it. The rest of the time, they just keep saying the boy is "strong in the Force" and "may or may not be The Chosen One who will bring Balance to the Force," which are things we've been hearing since the Original Trilogy.

    4.) With the benefit of knowing how everything in the Original Trilogy shakes out (as well as watching this movie as an adult now, vs as a child) the scenes where Palpatine manipulates Queen Amidala into basically making him Chancellor by movie's end actually come off brilliantly. They really show just how devious and cunning Palpatine is, to the point where I think it actually adds to his characterization that began in the Original Trilogy.

    5.) Darth Maul isn't shown enough in the movie, but the scenes in which he is shown are pretty good. Showing him more would have really hammered home how much of a threat he was--but, I actually think Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's paranoia and the Council's hesitancy to accept that the Sith really ARE back do a good job of conveying that Maul is a force to be reckoned with.

    6.) The age gap between Anakin and Padme is hard to get over knowing that they're eventually going to become lovers in the 2nd and 3rd Episodes. Their relationship in Episode I comes off as very "brother and sister," so I imagine it'll be jarring to see them in Episodes II and III (if I work up the nerve to watch those again, too). This could have easily been solved by either having both be teenagers, or both be Anakin's age--in fact, having Anakin be a teenager would make a lot more sense for those scenes in which the Council/Yoda keep declaring, "He's too old to be trained!" I get it, Jedi normally begin their training basically out of the womb, but the scenes as presented have the Jedi coming off as sanctimonious rather than as being concerned that he won't be able to grasp the intricate lessons of Jedi training due to his age.

    7.) Again, knowing how everything shakes out by the end of Episode III, Yoda's scenes in this movie hold a lot of weight--he's absolutely right about Anakin's fear leading him to the Dark Side, and he protests enough both on the Council and in private to Obi-Wan towards movie's end that when Anakin DOES fall, you get the sense that Yoda saw it coming the whole time. The writing for the prequel trilogy gets a lot of crap (and deservedly so in many areas), but as far as Episode I is concerned both Yoda and Palpatine's scenes are good-to-great when you take everything into context.

    In conclusion: Episode I isn't a GREAT movie by any means, but it's not anywhere near the dumpster fire that some would proclaim. Much of the movie is OK save for a few points that aren't that difficult to get over when you take everything into context, and some scenes are actually great. If I were to assign the movie a grade on an A through F scale, I'd give it a B-. If you haven't watched it in awhile and want something to do to kill the time, I'd recommend giving it an honest re-watch and think about how some scenes will fit into the Original Trilogy--if you do, I think you'll come away pleasantly surprised like I did.

    What do you think? Am I way off base here, or do you think I have some valid points? How many of you have re-watched Episode I recently, and what were your feelings on it?

    Thanks for reading!
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2017-12-09 at 05:54 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    2D8HP's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    San Francisco Bay area
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Good to know, as I never saw it (While I watched a lot of Sci-fi/Fantasy before the '90's the only post 80's "genre" films I that I can remember the names of are Gattaca, Primer, Spider-Man, and Stardust).
    Grim specter of noogie hangs like shroud over us all


    Extended Sig




    PBP's

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    Does the game you play feature a Dragon sitting on a pile of treasure, in a Dungeon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    You're an NPC stat block."I remember when your race was your class you damned whippersnappers"
    Snazzy Avatar by Honest Tiefling!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Pex's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    It's not only Jar Jar. It's the racist undertones. Jar Jar, Watto, Nut Gunray. Personal bias I saw it in Watto the worse. The accent. All about the money. The hooked nose! They doubled down on it in the second movie with the beard and black hat.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    "Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition, where the DCs are made up and the rules don't matter."

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    The Trade Federation's attempts to take Naboo are never explained. This is the driving force of the plot, around which nearly all other events revolve, yet nothing is shown or said about why it's happening other than, "they want the planet for reasons."

    Nonsensical events occur with alarming frequency. The invasion forces arrive on the opposite side of the planet they want to be on. The planetary blockade fails as a blockade, as the ship with literally the most important person on the planet is able to just fly through it. Jedi, who apparently have enough official weight in the Republic to act as ambassadors, do not hold enough weight to have anyone believe them when they claim that assassination attempts were committed, nor when they claim to be first-hand witnesses to planetary invasion or open hostilities.

    There is almost never any sense of danger to the protagonists. The battle droids, which makes up the vast majority of enemy combatants, are incompetent buffoons. This is largely due to the fact that they are also used as comic relief, resulting in them being neither funny nor threatening. Maul is the only actual danger they face, and as pointed out, he is woefully underused.

    Jake Lloyd's acting is horrible. I put the blame for this on Lucas, as legend goes he has only two ways to direct ("faster" and "more intense"), as well as writing ridiculous lines for mini-Vader. An accomplished actor like Liam Neison can work with this and still make an admirable attempt. A ten-year-old can't.

    A bad movie in a series of beloved movies may get more flak due to how much people liked the first ones, but that does not mean said movie is not bad on its own merits.

    Also, the OT never said word one about a Chosen One. The prophecy and concept of a Chosen One were introduced in TPM. I don't count this against the film, but saying it was in the OT is inaccurate.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2017-12-09 at 09:27 PM.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

    Cuthalion makes great avatars. Like my Silver Dragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    JoshL's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Episode 1 is not nearly as bad as Episode 2. All the prequels are fun enough if you shut your brain off and realize it is Lucas having fun playing with his toys. And, hey, that's fair, I can relate. For some reason when I was a kid, Ree-Yees was the king of the Universe amongst my toys. So any nonsense he came up with could hardly be worse.

    That said, he made Natalie Portman look awful, so his skills as a director are suspect at best

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    An Enemy Spy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Right behind you
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    I'm not going to defend the Prequels as good movies, but the decade and a half long era of nonstop whinging and the over top criticism that infected any and all Star Wars discussions was so much more annoying than any flaws the movies had. It made me never want to talk about Star Wars online because I knew that no matter what the original subject was, it would invariably spiral into a Prequel dunkfest. It made me want to like them purely out of spite. Jar Jar is awful though.

    I haven't seen Episode I in a few years, so I could be off here, but I'm pretty sure the reason the Trade Federation went after Naboo specifically is because Palpatine directed them to. "I will make it legal" and all that. Since he's already the most influential senator, the attack on his homeworld gives him the sympathetic platform to boot Valorum out of the Chancellor's chair and take over the Republic. The Trade Federation is basically the East India Company IN SPACE and they were flexing their military power to gain control of a lucrative market, just like the EIC did in India.
    Last edited by An Enemy Spy; 2017-12-09 at 11:57 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    I'm not going to defend the Prequels as good movies, but the decade and a half long era of nonstop whinging and the over top criticism that infected any and all Star Wars discussions was so much more annoying than any flaws the movies had. It made me want to like them purely out of spite.
    If it makes you feel any better, I redirected most of my whinging to the Clone Wars animated movie when it came out. ****ing Truman Capote Hutt, what the hell was up with that?

    Edit to address your edit: what lucrative market? The movie never even implies anything to that point, nor that they attacked solely because Palps said to. Even if he did (which wasnt shown or alluded to), he seems to manipulate them by directing them to take actions they will benefit from. Which is to have the queen sign a treaty that will do.... treaty things?

    The opening crawl that deals with this:

    The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.
    Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.

    So they want to stop paying so much in taxes? Or they want to issue taxes themselves? And somehow blockading shipping to Naboo will achieve that?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2017-12-10 at 12:07 AM.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

    Cuthalion makes great avatars. Like my Silver Dragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshL View Post
    That said, he made Natalie Portman look awful, so his skills as a director are suspect at best
    Natalie Portman looks awful in most mass market projects she does. She was just as bad in the two Thor movies she deigned to do as she was in the Prequels, in almost exactly the same ways. She simply does not commit effectively to projects she doesn't believe in, for whatever reason.

    As for the Episode I itself, the movie is remarkably disjointed. It has a number of scenes that, taken alone, are really quite good. Most of the action set pieces are excellent, especially those that don't have a young Anakin in them. It also has a number of scenes that are utterly awful and simply doesn't hold together as a whole.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    An Enemy Spy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Right behind you
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.
    Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.

    So they want to stop paying so much in taxes? Or they want to issue taxes themselves? And somehow blockading shipping to Naboo will achieve that?
    I believe that Naboo was a previously untaxed market and the new taxes that the Senate laid down are cutting into their profits so they've seized Naboo to pressure the queen into signing a treaty that will overwhelmingly favor the TF's business interests at great cost to the planet. Kind of like the mob showing up to your business and threatening to burn the place down if they don't get most of your profits. Major corporate entities pressuring smaller countries like this has precedent in real life but I think I'm already pushing the boundaries of the no politics rules here so I'll leave it at that.

    Honestly the finer economic details aren't really important beyond setting up the nature of the conflict.
    Last edited by An Enemy Spy; 2017-12-10 at 12:32 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    I believe that Naboo was a previously untaxed market and the new taxes that the Senate laid down are cutting into their profits so they've seized Naboo to pressure the queen into signing a treaty that will overwhelmingly favor the TF's business interests at great cost to the planet. Kind of like the mob showing up to your business and threatening to burn the place down if they don't get most of your profits. Major corporate entities pressuring smaller countries like this has precedent in real life but I think I'm already pushing the boundaries of the no politics rules here so I'll leave it at that.
    Here's the thing. That absolutely makes sense. The Trade Federation's being a quick and dirty East India Trading Co is a great way to establish them to the audience. And none of that was in the movie. It's such a stupidly bad problem, because it had such an easy fix. A quick rewrite of the opening crawl. "the Trade Federation, eager to exploit a new source of plasma in the small planet of Naboo, had blockade the planet in an effort to secure mining rights." Motive is established within seconds, and the rest of the movie can proceed exactly as is, with no extra exposition needed. Instead, nebulous tax issues that are never addressed leave the whole thing to be revealed later on in some EU books.

    You're right that the details are only important to set up the nature of the conflict, but they never actually set up the nature of the conflict, they just set up the conflict. That's the problem.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2017-12-10 at 12:39 AM.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

    Cuthalion makes great avatars. Like my Silver Dragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    An Enemy Spy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Right behind you
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Here's the thing. That absolutely makes sense. The Trade Federation's being a quick and dirty East India Trading Co is a great way to establish them to the audience. And none of that was in the movie. It's such a stupidly bad problem, because it had such an easy fix. A quick rewrite of the opening crawl. "the Trade Federation, eager to exploit a new source of plasma in the small planet of Naboo, had blockade the planet in an effort to secure mining rights." Motive is established within seconds, and the rest of the movie can proceed exactly as is, with no extra exposition needed. Instead, nebulous tax issues that are never addressed leave the whole thing to be revealed later on in some EU books.

    You're right that the details are only important to set up the nature of the conflict, but they never actually set up the nature of the conflict, they just set up the conflict. That's the problem.
    You're 100% right on that count.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2016

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Edit to address your edit: what lucrative market? The movie never even implies anything to that point, nor that they attacked solely because Palps said to. Even if he did (which wasnt shown or alluded to), he seems to manipulate them by directing them to take actions they will benefit from. Which is to have the queen sign a treaty that will do.... treaty things?

    The opening crawl that deals with this:

    The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.
    Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.

    So they want to stop paying so much in taxes? Or they want to issue taxes themselves? And somehow blockading shipping to Naboo will achieve that?
    YMMV, of course, but I personally feel like this is one of those things some people complain about that doesn't actually matter. The main point isn't that the Trade Federation wants something from Naboo; the main point is that Palpatine is ordering the Federation to take aggressive action against Naboo so that he can use the situation to manipulate the Republic Senate into electing him Chancellor so that he can begin seizing total power. If a reason for the Federation/Naboo conflict was given, would it have mattered all that much? I say no.

    EDIT: Your point on the OT never mentioning a "Chosen One" is valid; I think I was mis-remembering some dialog from Episode III as being from Episode IV.
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2017-12-10 at 12:50 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    YMMV, of course, but I personally feel like this is one of those things some people complain about that doesn't actually matter. The main point isn't that the Trade Federation wants something from Naboo; the main point is that Palpatine is ordering the Federation to take aggressive action against Naboo so that he can use the situation to manipulate the Republic Senate into electing him Chancellor so that he can begin seizing total power. If a reason for the Federation/Naboo conflict was given, would it have mattered all that much? I say no.
    you ever watch Columbo? Me, I love Columbo. Cant get enough of it. The thing is, Columbo isn't about the murder. You know who the murderer is. It's a character study. It's slow, but that works for it because it's about the journey. But if the murderer doesn't have a motive, the episode would just fall flat, ya know?
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

    Cuthalion makes great avatars. Like my Silver Dragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Jasdoif's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Oregon, USA

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If it makes you feel any better, I redirected most of my whinging to the Clone Wars animated movie when it came out. ****ing Truman Capote Hutt, what the hell was up with that?
    At least Ziro only appears in four episodes of the following series, including the one where he's killed. The attempts to make battle droids "funny", on the other hand....Personally I rate the series higher than the original (and prequel) trilogy, but it certainly had more than its share of problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    what lucrative market? The movie never even implies anything to that point, nor that they attacked solely because Palps said to. Even if he did (which wasnt shown or alluded to), he seems to manipulate them by directing them to take actions they will benefit from. Which is to have the queen sign a treaty that will do.... treaty things?

    The opening crawl that deals with this:

    The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.
    Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.

    So they want to stop paying so much in taxes? Or they want to issue taxes themselves? And somehow blockading shipping to Naboo will achieve that?
    As I recall, Sidious had convinced Gunray that blockading all trade to and from Naboo would force the Senate to repeal the new tax.

    Which, like you said, should have been mentioned in the movie...assuming the movie needed to mention the taxation bit in the first place.

    The extent to which this in particular matters is debatable, but the whole movie has a lot of bits like this, details that feel like they're setting up something that never comes to fruition.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Bohandas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    It's much better than Rogue One, which didn't even feel like a Star Wars film. And speaking of things that aren't Star Wars films it wasn't as pointless and unnecessary as Trek's prequels

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2016

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    you ever watch Columbo? Me, I love Columbo. Cant get enough of it. The thing is, Columbo isn't about the murder. You know who the murderer is. It's a character study. It's slow, but that works for it because it's about the journey. But if the murderer doesn't have a motive, the episode would just fall flat, ya know?
    But that's just it: The Trade Federation isn't the actual murderer, Palpatine is, and with the context of the other movies you DO understand his motive. Reading the scenes where he suggests to Queen Amidala that calling for a vote of no confidence in the current Chancellor would be in Naboo's best interest take on a whole new level of deviousness when you realize that's exactly how he maneuvers his way into seizing more and more political power.

    And that's really the thing I can't stress enough: When you take Episode I into context of the other movies, the flaws seem a little less glaring and some scenes are actually improved. The writing isn't great by any stretch and many of the actors aren't GREAT, but the movie isn't a flaming tire fire. It's OK, with parts of it actually being quite good.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Eh, respectfully disagree. I rewatched it again before last years new star wars movie. And I thought it was even worse than I remembered. I was bored the entire time. Jar Jar was annoying, along with his entire race. Anakin could not act. I did not care about any of the protagonists. There's a big idiotic race scene in the middle of the movie.

    Was it the worst movie I'd ever seen? Hell no. But it was easily the worst Star Wars. Or it would be if there wasn't also Attack of the Clones.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kitten Champion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    The problems with The Phantom Menace are not niggling logic issues with the plot or the lack of clarification what the villain was even doing there, or midichlorians, or Jar Jar. Nor is it a "don't think so much and it works"-type movie because I saw it when I was in the fourth grade and with absolutely no expectations regarding Star Wars, no input from the Internet rabble, or cogent understanding of film criticism.. and it was awful then too.

    The problems with The Phantom Menace is simply that the characters are various shades of boring and it's not structured as a particularly fun action/adventure movie. It has lame pacing, there's a lot of insipid dialogue which isn't shot with skill to make it interesting visually. The major set pieces aside from Jedi v. Sith duel are all predicated on CGI threats that even if you wanted to feel concern over with the actors seeming virtually unfazed by them they evoke nothing as a result, while the duel is well-choreographed it's essentially against a stuntman with make-up on rather than any sort of character.

    There's nothing to get invested in, and while Attack of the Clones is worse for a number of reasons, objectively speaking it's not superfluous to the saga of Star Wars as The Phantom Menace is. You can skip The Phantom Menace and lose nothing, nothing whatsoever. It should have been an EU novel and nothing more.
    Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2017-12-10 at 03:06 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Essex, England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    I saw it exactly once, and as I was not a member of any discussion groups at the time didn't get to hear the hype before or the hating afterwards.

    The problem I had with Ep1 was that it was either a Kiddie movie trying to dress up as a family movie, or a Family movie trying to dress up as a Kiddie movie. If they had made Anakin a late teenager (like Luke) and written out Jar-Jar and his kin (and found a better role for Brian Blessed) the film could have been acceptable.

    The original trilogy were a set of Family movies. Flawed in places, admittedly, but good family entertainment none the less. Ep1 was trying to aim at two different targets and missed both.
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Hold on just a d*** second. UK has spam callers that try to get you to buy conservatories?!? Even y'alls spammers are higher class than ours!

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    But that's just it: The Trade Federation isn't the actual murderer, Palpatine is, and with the context of the other movies you DO understand his motive. Reading the scenes where he suggests to Queen Amidala that calling for a vote of no confidence in the current Chancellor would be in Naboo's best interest take on a whole new level of deviousness when you realize that's exactly how he maneuvers his way into seizing more and more political power.

    And that's really the thing I can't stress enough: When you take Episode I into context of the other movies, the flaws seem a little less glaring and some scenes are actually improved. The writing isn't great by any stretch and many of the actors aren't GREAT, but the movie isn't a flaming tire fire. It's OK, with parts of it actually being quite good.
    I disagree; the Trade Federation is the overt villain. They blockade Naboo (even though it's a crappy blockade, and cannot stop a single ship). They attack the Jedi. They invade the planet. They control Theed. They take the Queen hostage. They wage war upon the Gungans. They gave the army on the ground, and the warships in orbit. When they are defeated, the movie is over. Nearly every conflict in there movie is with the Trade Federation, which makes it important for them to have a motive. Yes, Palps is the covert villain, the silent partner that we know about, but that does not mean that the primary antagonists can get away with not having any actual reason to do what they are doing.

    Not to mention this is the only one of my complaints that you have argued against; I'm interested in what you have to say about my other issues.

    Also, if a movie requires another movie to make it good, then it isn't good. Even in a series, each work should be able to stand on its own merit, and at the very least not rely on later works too retroactively make it better. Even if you do think it is better if you take it as a whole, then you have the issue if the whole prophecy, which a huge deal is made about in Eps 1-3 and then never mentioned again. It would have been a pretty big thing to tell Luke about, no? "Vader was supposed to bring balance to the Force," or maybe "we thought your father was the Chosen One until Vader killed him, now it might be you." Or even if they cut Luke out, and Kenobi and Yoda only discuss it with themselves, like when they explicitly talk out of Luke's earshot about whether or not he is their only hope. Retroactively adding a prophecy is not only lazy writing, it actually makes the prequels worse if you consider them as a whole (which I've been trying not to do in this thread, and only discuss TPM on its own merits, which is why when I first mentioned this in my first post I didn't fault TPM for the prophecy bit).

    I did agree that the movie isn't as bad as its famous for being. I do contend, however, that it is still bad.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2017-12-10 at 09:05 AM.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

    Cuthalion makes great avatars. Like my Silver Dragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Just because it's not THAT bad doesn't mean it isn't that bad....



    There aren't really any characters, there are beings that move around in the plot, but you can't really describe who they are as people in the way you could with eg. Han Solo.

    A lot of the direction isn't particularly focused on making what the actors are doing interesting, a lot of it is "actor acts at tennis ball, put something interesting in in post". Very little of the time is a character conveyed through action (Duel of the Fates is about the only time it is, which is why it remains the highlight of the film, the differences in expressivity and action between Maul and Obi-Wan show everything you need to know about them without anyone needing to say anything).

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2016

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I disagree; the Trade Federation is the overt villain. They blockade Naboo (even though it's a crappy blockade, and cannot stop a single ship). They attack the Jedi. They invade the planet. They control Theed. They take the Queen hostage. They wage war upon the Gungans. They gave the army on the ground, and the warships in orbit. When they are defeated, the movie is over. Nearly every conflict in there movie is with the Trade Federation, which makes it important for them to have a motive. Yes, Palps is the covert villain, the silent partner that we know about, but that does not mean that the primary antagonists can get away with not having any actual reason to do what they are doing.
    I agree that they're SUPPOSED to be the overt villain, but I think the bigger threat actually comes from Palpatine's machinations and Maul's pursuit of the Jedi. The Jedi Council definitely seem more concerned about the possibility of the Sith re-emerging than the Federation dispute with Naboo. Agree to disagree on this, I suppose.

    Not to mention this is the only one of my complaints that you have argued against; I'm interested in what you have to say about my other issues.
    Sorry about that, I had limited time last night so I only responded to the point I felt was easiest to debate. I'll respond to your other points now:

    Also, if a movie requires another movie to make it good, then it isn't good. Even in a series, each work should be able to stand on its own merit, and at the very least not rely on later works too retroactively make it better. Even if you do think it is better if you take it as a whole, then you have the issue if the whole prophecy, which a huge deal is made about in Eps 1-3 and then never mentioned again.
    On the one hand, I agree with you, but on the other I was only able to enjoy Episode I in the way that I did yesterday BECAUSE I viewed each scene in the context if the other movies. Which, yes, is probably a bad thing for its individual merit as a standalone movie, but it also was never really meant to be--it's "Episode I" in name only, it's actually the fourth movie in a series that was made almost three decades earlier (which I know you are aware of, I'm just saying that to clarify my point).


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Nonsensical events occur with alarming frequency. The invasion forces arrive on the opposite side of the planet they want to be on. The planetary blockade fails as a blockade, as the ship with literally the most important person on the planet is able to just fly through it.
    I have no rebuttal for the invasion force being on the wrong side if the planet, but I think you're giving the blockade too little credit. It ALMOST succeeds in destroying the ship everyone is on--only R2-D2's heroics save them. Even then, the ship is heavily damaged to the point where they are forced to land on a dangerous planet controlled by the Hutts until they can find a way to repair it. Yes, the blockade failed, but more due to bad luck (for them) than incompetence.

    Jedi, who apparently have enough official weight in the Republic to act as ambassadors, do not hold enough weight to have anyone believe them when they claim that assassination attempts were committed, nor when they claim to be first-hand witnesses to planetary invasion or open hostilities.
    This is a very good point. The only thing I can come up with is that Palpatine already has the Senate so gridlocked due to his behind-the-scenes manipulations that he's the reason for the doubting of the Jedi. But that's headcanon and not really anything the movie conveys.

    There is almost never any sense of danger to the protagonists.
    Qui-Gon actually dies, though. Anakin's pod race doesn't go completely smoothly--other racers are dying left and right, and while yes he's protected by plot armor and the CGI could be better, there is some sense of danger there. The characters spend awhile discussing how dangerous pod racing is, so at least they tried to hammer the point home (you could argue they should have replaced the whole pod-racing bit altogether, but that's another discussion).

    Jake Lloyd's acting is horrible. I put the blame for this on Lucas, as legend goes he has only two ways to direct ("faster" and "more intense"), as well as writing ridiculous lines for mini-Vader. An accomplished actor like Liam Neison can work with this and still make an admirable attempt. A ten-year-old can't.
    I completely agree.

    A bad movie in a series of beloved movies may get more flak due to how much people liked the first ones, but that does not mean said movie is not bad on its own merits.
    True, but again I personally felt after yesterday's re-watch that it should be upgraded from "bad" to "OK." That's just how I felt, anyway. It's certainly no Attack of The Clones!

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    I agree that they're SUPPOSED to be the overt villain, but I think the bigger threat actually comes from Palpatine's machinations and Maul's pursuit of the Jedi. The Jedi Council definitely seem more concerned about the possibility of the Sith re-emerging than the Federation dispute with Naboo. Agree to disagree on this, I suppose.
    Then what was the point of literally any fight scene involving the TF? The entire climactic battle is against them. The plight of the Naboo are expressly against them. If they do not represent a threat, then what is the point of 90% of the movie? Any story with "you defeated the visible enemy, but the invisible enemy is even more dangerous" still needs a competent visible enemy.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    I have no rebuttal for the invasion force being on the wrong side if the planet, but I think you're giving the blockade too little credit. It ALMOST succeeds in destroying the ship everyone is on--only R2-D2's heroics save them. Even then, the ship is heavily damaged to the point where they are forced to land on a dangerous planet controlled by the Hutts until they can find a way to repair it. Yes, the blockade failed, but more due to bad luck (for them) than incompetence.
    R2's "heroics" was fixing the shield that went down. Functional shield = blockade escape. If anything, the blockade needs a lucky shot to stop ships from getting through. Unless you wish to contend that a shield on a ship is a rare and extraordinary thing, that is not an effective blockade.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    Qui-Gon actually dies, though. Anakin's pod race doesn't go completely smoothly--other racers are dying left and right, and while yes he's protected by plot armor and the CGI could be better, there is some sense of danger there. The characters spend awhile discussing how dangerous pod racing is, so at least they tried to hammer the point home (you could argue they should have replaced the whole pod-racing bit altogether, but that's another discussion).
    Yes, Qui-Gon does die. From Maul, which I explicitly stated was the only real threat. Although i will admit this was not entirely accurate; the droidekas were also a threat. Which leaves one to wonder why they kept using the useless battle droids, who did not represent any threat and are, in nearly every fight scene involving them, dispatched with ridiculous ease.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

    Cuthalion makes great avatars. Like my Silver Dragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    RossN's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    I agree it is underated, and the release of the newer films has made me reconsider the Preqels, even if I never disliked them as much as many.

    I tend to think The Force Awakens and The Phantom Menace have almost opposite strengths and weaknesses.

    Episode I has a dazzling visual style and background world building - from the gleaming Trade Federation ships, to the immense city-world of Coruscant, to the beautiful palace of Naboo and the Queen's ceremonial gowns this looks and feels very distinct from the original trilogy, yet not alien from it. This is the "more civilised age" Obi-Wan told Luke (and the audience about.) Darth Maul has an amazing look, even if he can come across as a bit of a let down in practise (see below). Episode I also bothers to tell us what is actually happening in the galaxy. Also the music is wonderful. Duel of the Fates for the win!

    Episode VII is far less visually inventive than the Prequels, often only tweaking many aspects just enough to be an outright retread (TIE Fighters now have two seats!) It sticks like glue to the used future aesthetics of the Original Trilogy. That copy and paste mentality stretches to the factions - how is the First Order different to the Galactic Empire or the Resistance to the Rebellion? The world building is hilariously threadbare and not just compared to the Prequels but even compared with Episode IV.

    Where Episode VII succeeds is in excellent performances, onscreen chemistry and pace that papers over a lot of the flaws in the film. Weaknesses in those same aspects trip up Episode I and hide it's many strengths.

    (For extra irony both film commit the same error of a halfway plot switch - Starkiller Base is essentially irrelevant to the quest to find Luke Skywalker and Anakin Skywalker is mostly a random tag-along in the mission to save Naboo from the Trade Federation.)

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Then what was the point of literally any fight scene involving the TF? The entire climactic battle is against them. The plight of the Naboo are expressly against them. If they do not represent a threat, then what is the point of 90% of the movie? Any story with "you defeated the visible enemy, but the invisible enemy is even more dangerous" still needs a competent visible enemy.
    To create obstacles and force actions from the main caste. Physically, the Trade Federation is not particularly threatening, indeed they want the Queen alive so she can sign their paperwork (the fiends!). They have enough political threat to inform the actions of the protagonists, which will in turn prevent them from just running around doing whatever they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    R2's "heroics" was fixing the shield that went down. Functional shield = blockade escape. If anything, the blockade needs a lucky shot to stop ships from getting through. Unless you wish to contend that a shield on a ship is a rare and extraordinary thing, that is not an effective blockade.
    Remember that that was the queen's personal shuttle. Its small, fast and designed to get you from one place to another quickly. A cargo freighter is going to be larger, slower, and have a harder time slipping through. At the end of the day they don't need the planet on total lockdown, just under enough pressure to consider giving into their demands.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes, Qui-Gon does die. From Maul, which I explicitly stated was the only real threat. Although i will admit this was not entirely accurate; the droidekas were also a threat. Which leaves one to wonder why they kept using the useless battle droids, who did not represent any threat and are, in nearly every fight scene involving them, dispatched with ridiculous ease.
    Presumably the shield equipped droidekas were more expensive to produce and maintain. I also cant imagine that even the Republic would just let them amass an army of Destroyer Droids and deploy them on planets.

    Also, in fairness, just about no grunt troop in Star Wars has ever actually overwhelmed an armed and aware Jedi of any level of training. Even the clones had to take them by surprise, and several still got away.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Malimar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    a nice pond

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    All in all, episode 1 is way less bad than episode 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    3.) Midochlorians and Anakin's "virgin birth" are still cringe-inducing. Thankfully, they don't actually come up that often during the movie--the scene between Qui-Gon and Anakin's mother, as well as the scene where Qui-Gon first informs the council about Anakin's existence, but that's about it. The rest of the time, they just keep saying the boy is "strong in the Force" and "may or may not be The Chosen One who will bring Balance to the Force," which are things we've been hearing since the Original Trilogy.
    I don't think midichlorians were all that bad. They are, at worst, a perfectly serviceable answer to a question nobody asked.

    And Anakin's "virgin birth" was explained in the opera scene of ep3, retroactively making it substantially less bad. (Plus it allowed for the scene in Stargate: SG-1 where Vala gets pregnant without a father and she's all like "Has anybody ever heard of anything like that before?" and everybody's all awkward and Teal'c is like "Yes... Darth Vader".)

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    To create obstacles and force actions from the main caste.

    Remember that that was the queen's personal shuttle. Its small, fast and designed to get you from one place to another quickly. A cargo freighter is going to be larger, slower, and have a harder time slipping through. At the end of the day they don't need the planet on total lockdown, just under enough pressure to consider giving into their demands.

    Also, in fairness, just about no grunt troop in Star Wars has ever actually overwhelmed an armed and aware Jedi of any level of training. Even the clones had to take them by surprise, and several still got away.
    Except the battle droids don't present an obstacle. They can be foiled by a bumbling fool literally tripping on his own blaster. The Super battle droids in the next movie do present an obstacle, and aren't laughed off like the standard battle droids.

    Also, one could argue that the Queen's personal shuttle is the single most important ship they want to blockade. Also, given that there are ships literally called "blockade runners," a personal shuttle seems an unlikely candidate to run a blockade.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

    Cuthalion makes great avatars. Like my Silver Dragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Darth Ultron's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    It is bad enough that just as a stand alone movie it is a bad movie.

    What makes it worse, and that bad, is that it could and should have been much better. After decades of no Star Wars....finally a new movie was to be made. Fans were excited...and then they just got the bad movie. So bad movie + hope/high expectations= That Bad.

    Nothing much happens in the movie, and that is what makes it really bad. Sure there is a story in the back ground, but all we get to see is endless Jar Jar comedy, a pod race, and CGI spam. And all the movie ''needed'' to do was set up the prequel setting and introduce Anikin.

    Just take away Jar Jar, the pod race, the kid Anikin and such...and think about what it could have been:

    Open with a battle: Once the crawl slides away we focus on a planet in space and the sounds of battle. An Acclamator of the Adderbran Defense Force comes on screen (aka like the opening of Star Wars), with troops and Jedi fighting a driod army. And we get all the main characters here: Obi Wan, Dag Muller(aka will be Darth Maul someday) and Zera Stai(really, when he had the chance why oh why did no Lucas add a female Jedi) if fighters in space and Yoda, Mace, Qui-Gon, Lassdrena(another woman) and Dooku on the command ship.

    And the driods are much, much, much, much more Terminator ''Exterminate!'' then goofy comics.

    The good guys and jedi win the battle and celebrate. But Yoda is troubled....this is the ninth time the adderbrains and jedi have have to strike back vs a mysterious droid army. The army is attacking worlds on the Rim, and no one knows why. Yoda is not happy with the Jedi being ''at war'', and wants them to just be peacekeepers. Dooku is on the side of aggressive negotiations: the Jedi must act for the greater good. With the Jedi split down the middle

    A data crystal is found saying a ''droid army commander'' will be visiting a base on Tattonie, outside the Republic. So ''officially'' the Republic can't do anything. But Dooku and Mace agree they should not pass up this chance...and quickly send an Acclamator and the younger jedi heroes to Tattotine.

    THIS is where Anikin is introduced as a young man: as a Hutt Military Slave Fighter. Anikin and the Jedi hit it off, and we get a quick battle where we see Anikin is a great pilot and hand to hand fighter. We get to see the 'ninja' driods here for the first time too...with the anti lightsaber staffs. The others figure out Anikin is unknown to him, a Jedi. And the Jedi do capture Separatist Leader Zom. And the Hutts free the slaves that fought. So Anikin is thrilled to head off with his new Jedi pals and become a Jedi himself.

    Then we can get some much needed story exposition. As Zom is questioned, everyone has to explain to Anikin (and the audience) what is going on. It becomes clear the Separatists are a large organized force from within the Republic..and they might answer to someone dark and powerful. Zom, mysteriously is killed just after this. Though only Yoda thinks it might be a Sith. And Yoda worries about having Anikin become a Jedi, but as the Jedi have suffered losses Dooku and Mace agree to let him join. With a slight lull in the fighting, Anikin gets a quick Jedi lesson or two.

    Then we get to Naboo, the next planet attacked by the driod army. Enter Padmae, secretary of Peace. She flirts with all the Jedi, but they of course just brush her off with the ''Jedi walk another path". Anikin, of course, does not brush her off. Then we get the Battle of Naboo, except it is full of characters we know and care about.

    Naboo is saved, of course, and the Jedi get an even bigger prize: Separatist Overlord Womak. Dooku in the command center and gets a call from General Goodsun that the battle in won and the Separatists are offering to surrender: what should he do? Dooku is about to answer when a couple guards bring Womak into the room, and Dooku puts the call on hold, then Dooku confronts Womak about ''why be evil?'' Womak just laughs and tells in detail about how he slaughtered millions...he was not even under orders to do so, he just though it would be fun. We'd get a nice close up of Womak right in Dooku's face laughing....then hear the lightsabe sound and Womak stop laughing. Womak falls to the floor and the camera pulls away to show Dooku holding his lightsaber...trembling in fear and anger and rage. The others in the room are like ''what have you done?"....and Dooku does not miss a beat as he force smashes open a weapon locker, force grab a blaster, have it hover over Womak's dead body...and kill everyone in the room. Then Dooku, still in rage, answers the call with ''kill them all, accept no surrender, leave none alive". Dooku hits send and ends the call, then quick speaks again to say ''Then the battle is over. Accept the surrender according to the law of the Republic and the Jedi way. All driods are to be deactivated, the rest to be given full prisoner of war status. " Then we watch as Dooku quickly uses the Force to alter the computer data: erase the first message and make it look like he sent the second. And then everyone runs in and Dooku does the story of ''Womak broke free and got a blaster and shot everyone before I could take him out." And everyone mostly falls for it....Qui Gon is suspicious.

    The forces of good then kill all the bad guys....and no one can stop it until it is too late. Qui Gon has a tech check the computer, and finds only the false information. Still it is a victory.....everyone celebrates. Anikin and Padmae hook up. But Yoda feels the prescience of the dark side...and others like Qui Gon are worried too....the war is not over yet.

    The last scene has poor Dooku looking over some reports of the dead and struggling with what he has done....when Papitine comes in as Darth Sidious and offers his help........

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Except the battle droids don't present an obstacle. They can be foiled by a bumbling fool literally tripping on his own blaster. The Super battle droids in the next movie do present an obstacle, and aren't laughed off like the standard battle droids.

    Also, one could argue that the Queen's personal shuttle is the single most important ship they want to blockade. Also, given that there are ships literally called "blockade runners," a personal shuttle seems an unlikely candidate to run a blockade.
    Sure, but theyre a mercantile organization, not a paramilitary police force. stopping 90% of traffic to and from Naboo is already harmful enough for their purposes.

    And the droids are basically guns with legs. That's all theyre meant to be because again, mercantile group, not conquering military dictators.

    Honestly, it feels like youre wanting the Trade Federation to be something other than pawns of Palpatine who are creating a ruckus to be distracting without being super destructive.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: Surprisingly, Star Wars: Episode I is not Actually THAT Bad

    B1 droids are not meant to be dangerous by themselves, but they're cheap and easy to make in bulk, they're meant to drown an enemy in swarms of the things and are considered enough of a threat that the leads need the Gungan army to draw the bulk them out of Theed. And that is surprisingly well illustrated just by that little 'unfolding' scene. Even with the diversion, the raiding party initially gets captured by the remnants of the palace garrison. The Trade Federation are surprisingly well sketched as a company that favour cheap mass production over quality, just from this film. The B1s are not a threat to Jedi except in vast numbers, but they can and do inflict casualties on Naboo security forces and successfully defeat the Gungans.

    As for droidekas, they're very useful, but you can't make an army solely out of tanks. They can't, for instance, climb stairs.

    "Trade Federation" by itself tells you what they do. The invasion was not logical, even Qui Gonn says it. Pessimistic TF guy that actually has experience of Jedi calls out everything they're doing as insane, and Palpatine has him removed from the room.

    Re: Blockade Running, that's not your average ship, it's the personal transport of the Queen, and it comes away with heavy damage. There are ships called blockade runners because it is possible to run a blockade. The Queen's personal ship seems like a good candidate, it's likely to be fast and durable and with no combat role the key defence mechanism is going to be to outpace any threat.

    Been a while since I've seen TPM, but as for landing away from the capital, probably the same reason the Empire lands away from the base at Hoth, a shield. An invasion force rarely happens at only one point, there were probably more landings closer to the capital.

    The treaty legalises the invasion in retrospect, it's essentially to present the senate with a fait accompli so they don't find it worth defending.

    The only one of those that needs information from any other movie is the Shield.

    It's honestly surprising how much makes sense.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •