Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

[Delicious Taffy]

It's pretty obvious that #18 is going to win this one.

[Lord Raziere]

To be fair, that's only because DB Super has so many inconsistencies, it's a surprise it can keep the characters' names. Overall, it's a pretty crappy show that I only watch out of nostalgia.

then you don't remember how inconsistent and weird Dragon Ball and DBZ were. Dragon Ball was never about consistency. Ever. Its an action show of epic proportions precariously balanced upon a very wibbly-wobbly gag/comedy foundation written by an author who forgets basic things like "saiyans have monkey tails" "Launch is a person that exists" and "super saiyan 2 exists". complaining about inconsistencies in Dragon Ball is like complaining about time travel rules in Doctor Who, your missing the point and are only going to get "wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey" as a response to any question about how it actually works.

and yeah nostalgia, like remember Ranfan, the female fighter in OG Dragon Ball who tried to defeat tournament fighters by stripping? or that germ guy who tried to compete in a tournament with stink as his special advantage? and how Krillin defeated the germ guy by NOT HAVING A NOSE? or the first arc of Dragon Ball where Goku literally couldn't tell the difference between male and female by sight and thus did it by directly touching people? yeah I totally have nostalgia for those great moments. Not.

[Anteros]

then you don't remember how inconsistent and weird Dragon Ball and DBZ were. Dragon Ball was never about consistency. Ever. Its an action show of epic proportions precariously balanced upon a very wibbly-wobbly gag/comedy foundation written by an author who forgets basic things like "saiyans have monkey tails" "Launch is a person that exists" and "super saiyan 2 exists". complaining about inconsistencies in Dragon Ball is like complaining about time travel rules in Doctor Who, your missing the point and are only going to get "wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey" as a response to any question about how it actually works.

and yeah nostalgia, like remember Ranfan, the female fighter in OG Dragon Ball who tried to defeat tournament fighters by stripping? or that germ guy who tried to compete in a tournament with stink as his special advantage? and how Krillin defeated the germ guy by NOT HAVING A NOSE? or the first arc of Dragon Ball where Goku literally couldn't tell the difference between male and female by sight and thus did it by directly touching people? yeah I totally have nostalgia for those great moments. Not.

The original definitely had its bad moments, but Super is much worse. I mean, I like Dragonball and I watch Super, but it's pretty bad at times.

[Lemmy]

and yeah nostalgia, like remember Ranfan, the female fighter in OG Dragon Ball who tried to defeat tournament fighters by stripping? or that germ guy who tried to compete in a tournament with stink as his special advantage? and how Krillin defeated the germ guy by NOT HAVING A NOSE? or the first arc of Dragon Ball where Goku literally couldn't tell the difference between male and female by sight and thus did it by directly touching people? yeah I totally have nostalgia for those great moments. Not.

It was a comedy show as well... There's nothing inconsistent about an animated comedy show using cartoon physics. I laughed at those moments... If you didn't, that's ok, but calling them "inconsistency" is downright dishonest. It's like saying "Tom & Jerry" is inconsistent because Tom is blown up in a scene and is then perfectly fine on the very next scene.

DB and DBZ had their share of inconsistencies and plot holes... But nothing even close to the level of DBS, where it's pretty obvious the author doesn't even give a **** about trying to make sense within the "rules" of the universe he created.

[Lord Raziere]

cartoon physics are the embodiment of inconsistency. doesn't mean I don't like them, but not acknowledging that they're inconsistent is just being dishonest. People accept and like inconsistency more often than they like to admit, its not the be-all end-all of writing.

[Lemmy]

cartoon physics are the embodiment of inconsistency. doesn't mean I don't like them, but not acknowledging that they're inconsistent is just being dishonest. People accept and like inconsistency more often than they like to admit, its not the be-all end-all of writing.

Calling cartoon physics "inconsistency" is not inconsistent. It applies whenever it would make something funny (or at least whenever the author think it would). It makes no sense, because it's not meant to make sense. If Tom suddenly died when Jerry dropped an anvil on his head and remained dead for all other episodes... THAT would be inconsistency.

DB slowly but steadily moved from a 50/50 comedy/action show to a mostly ACTION (with a little bit of comedy sprinkled here and there) show... And having inconsistency after that transition is far more damning than being inconsistent during the times where Krillin wins fights by having no nose. The focus and tone of the show is completely different, for better or worse. We can disagree on the value of consistency, but saying it's the same in a comedy and in action show is insane.

Also... "Well, the old shows were bad too!" isn't exactly a great argument... Specially said the old show were made written decades ago and were not nearly as flawed as the current one. Don't get me wrong, there's stuff I really like in DBS (like seeing secondary characters have more screen time), but its complete inattention to the (already few) established rules of the show's universe (even the ones added during Super) is annoying... The awful animation doesn't help either.

[Dragonus45]

To be fair, that's only because DB Super has so many inconsistencies, it's a surprise it can keep the characters' names. Overall, it's a pretty crappy show that I only watch out of nostalgia.

Except that it isn't inconsistent, I just explained how it wasn't inconsistent.

[Celestia]

Y'all are getting way too worked up about an internet video show. It's just their opinion; you don't have to be insulted by it. And if you don't like it, then stop watching it. I have no problems with them. I may not agree with all of their outcomes, but I don't let it get to me. Being offended by Death Battle is just silly.

[Lemmy]

Y'all are getting way too worked up about an internet video show. It's just their opinion; you don't have to be insulted by it. And if you don't like it, then stop watching it. I have no problems with them. I may not agree with all of their outcomes, but I don't let it get to me. Being offended by Death Battle is just silly.

There's a difference between "being offended" and "disagreeing with the conclusion but wanting to discuss it".

[Kato]

There's a difference between "being offended" and "disagreeing with the conclusion but wanting to discuss it".

No, I agree with Celestia. There's a difference between discussion and the tone of some people sometimes here. Unless that's actually their normal way to talk they seem quite offended.
But if anything I'm even worse because I'm getting riled up about people getting riled up

[Dragonus45]

The only one that outright offends me is the Gaara match, other than that I have settled into watching it to laugh at how weird their decisions and math can be. Which is a shame because some of the earlier stuff felt much more solid.

[Celestia]

There's a difference between "being offended" and "disagreeing with the conclusion but wanting to discuss it".

When the exact same episodes are brought up again and again only so that everyone can incessantly complain about them in a vitriolic circle jerk, that's not "discussion."

[Lemmy]

When the exact same episodes are brought up again and again only so that everyone can incessantly complain about them in a vitriolic circle jerk, that's not "discussion."

Dumb conclusions don't stop being dumb just because time has past.

[Lord Raziere]

Dumb conclusions don't stop being dumb just because time has past.

Exactly! Goku Vs. Superman's conclusion was indeed dumb, we shouldn't stop pointing out how stupid it was.

[Dragonus45]

Exactly! Goku Vs. Superman's conclusion was indeed dumb, we shouldn't stop pointing out how stupid it was.

Because even though they had crap examples for both sides the overall conclusion was solid.

[Lord Raziere]

Because even though they had crap examples for both sides the overall conclusion was solid.

No. Not solid at all, because there is no one writer for Superman, therefore there is no solid conclusion that you can make. furthermore, the Superman used in DB was All-Star Superman, so it wasn't canon because it was DC's ultimate universe.

[Traab]

The only one that outright offends me is the Gaara match, other than that I have settled into watching it to laugh at how weird their decisions and math can be. Which is a shame because some of the earlier stuff felt much more solid.

There are a few that, I dont just disagree with, but are outright WRONG. The garra match is one, and going old school, the rogue/wonder woman matchup is another. In a series that dedicates itself to cherry picking the best feats of both combatants, it should have been another flash/quicksilver match, if even that close. I dont care that wonder woman is wearing a one piece bathing suit and has tons of exposed skin, rogue should have exploded into a red mist with the first clash they had.

[Dragonus45]

There are a few that, I dont just disagree with, but are outright WRONG. The garra match is one, and going old school, the rogue/wonder woman matchup is another. In a series that dedicates itself to cherry picking the best feats of both combatants, it should have been another flash/quicksilver match, if even that close. I dont care that wonder woman is wearing a one piece bathing suit and has tons of exposed skin, rogue should have exploded into a red mist with the first clash they had.

I vaguely remember them doing Rogue with Ms. Marvel's powers on tap at the time, which would help a great deal even if I do think that Wonder Woman would destroy Carol at top speed with her awesome sword and inescapable whip just as easily as she could wreck Rogue with the same without worrying about physical combat but there is at least a little wriggle room there. Unlike the Peach vs Zelda match which has been known to send a friend of mine into an incoherent fit followed by him bringing up a youtube video of Peach getting kidnapped after being off screen for roughly 8 seconds.

[Lemmy]

No. Not solid at all, because there is no one writer for Superman, therefore there is no solid conclusion that you can make. furthermore, the Superman used in DB was All-Star Superman, so it wasn't canon because it was DC's ultimate universe.

And let's not forget how they took Goku from one of his weakest points in the show AND managed to "accidentally" screw the numbers on the power comparison (and Goku should be a far, far, far superior martial artist than Superman)... I mean, I could see an argument for Supes being stronger than Goku, but DB didn't come even close.

[Devonix]

And let's not forget how they took Goku from one of his weakest points in the show AND managed to "accidentally" screw the numbers on the power comparison (and Goku should be a far, far, far superior martial artist than Superman)... I mean, I could see an argument for Supes being stronger than Goku, but DB didn't come even close.

For Deathbattle they used Post Crisis Pre-Nu52 Superman. They didn't use Allstar Superman however if they had he isn't Noncanon. To use that term for him or any of different versions of a comic book character that exists a a part of an established multiverse is to misuse the term of canon or noncanon.

[Chives]

And let's not forget how they took Goku from one of his weakest points in the show AND managed to "accidentally" screw the numbers on the power comparison (and Goku should be a far, far, far superior martial artist than Superman)... I mean, I could see an argument for Supes being stronger than Goku, but DB didn't come even close.

I don't think there's a way to confirm this. Supes learns instantly and retains information forever, but he also hasn't ever thrown a kick. So there's no way to get a firm reading on what he knows because he's only ever hit things.

[Lord Raziere]

And again, Superman like all superheroes is constantly going up and down in power, getting repowered, depowered and such and so on far more often than Goku, and being written with his abilities completely differently by different writers, to the point where Superman's capabilities is more indicative of the writer than of Superman himself, and like all superheroes these days face a constant clusterglut of continuity and reboots that is far harder to follow than the comparatively linear story of Goku made by one guy.

the question of whether Goku can defeat Superman, is one that varies every time the universe gets reset and every time a new writer comes in to tell a story about Superman. We might as pit Kid Goku Vs. Original Superman, y'know from the original Golden Age comics, and try to figure it out from that.

[Lemmy]

I don't think there's a way to confirm this. Supes learns instantly and retains information forever, but he also hasn't ever thrown a kick. So there's no way to get a firm reading on what he knows because he's only ever hit things.

There's a difference between retaining information and obtaining the reflexes necessaries to do it consistently and effectively in combat. Supes almost always fights enemies who are either vastly weaker than him or other super-powerful opponents who similarly mostly bully weaker opponents, while Goku not only trains martial art all the time, but often faces opponents who are just as skilled and considerably more powerful than him.

Not to mention that "retains information forever" is one of his most inconsistent powers (and that's saying something!) simply because writers forget about it all the time... Now, like I said, I think one could argue that Superman does indeed beat Goku (I've seen good points both ways), but DB's take on it was terrible.

[Chives]

There's a difference between retaining information and obtaining the reflexes necessaries to do it consistently and effectively in combat. Supes almost always fights enemies who are either vastly weaker than him or other super-powerful opponents who similarly mostly bully weaker opponents, while Goku not only trains martial art all the time, but often faces opponents who are just as skilled and considerably more powerful than him.

Not to mention that "retains information forever" is one of his most inconsistent powers (and that's saying something!) simply because writers forget about it all the time... Now, liek I said, I think one could argue that Superman does indeed beat Goku (I've seen good points both ways), but DB's take on it was terrible.

I agree 100%. Supes just asks Goku for a second to power up, builds the wish machine and wishes Goku out of existence. Sayians are vulnerable to heat, so he bisects Goku with heat vision. Supes cracks one of his sun orbs, or decoys Goku into the phantom zone. Any of those work within established canon limits. But really, the first thing either of them would do before cutting loose would be to move the fight off Earth. (c'mon!)

[Rynjin]

Honestly with regards to comics characters the problem is that their policy of taking characters from their "strongest ever" point is horribly skewed...because comics are just about the only medium with fluctuating power levels like that. They defy a linear progression of powers, whereas most video games and shonen fight anime do not.

Taking a snapshot of a character from a specific point and comparing them to another at a specific point would be better. Rather than "biggest things Superman has ever done" you go with whatever the current continuity, or from some discrete medium (like the Justice League cartoon) or popular storyline (All-Star Superman IS a valid choice). The way they do it is kinda like the equivalent of taking a video game character and assuming the one power-up they got for half a level in some spin-off game is their baseline power level. it's ridiculous, but for some reason accepted for comics characters.

[Chives]

Honestly with regards to comics characters the problem is that their policy of taking characters from their "strongest ever" point is horribly skewed...because comics are just about the only medium with fluctuating power levels like that. They defy a linear progression of powers, whereas most video games and shonen fight anime do not.

Taking a snapshot of a character from a specific point and comparing them to another at a specific point would be better. Rather than "biggest things Superman has ever done" you go with whatever the current continuity, or from some discrete medium (like the Justice League cartoon) or popular storyline (All-Star Superman IS a valid choice). The way they do it is kinda like the equivalent of taking a video game character and assuming the one power-up they got for half a level in some spin-off game is their baseline power level. it's ridiculous, but for some reason accepted for comics characters.

It is ridiculous, but it saves the hosts from having to pick apart which character did what. The Superman they used combined powers and feats from three alternate versions (Ultraman/Silver Age/New52) then won by using an exploit given to him by Mytzlplk. (which wouldn't apply in DB anyway!) The Supes they used wouldn't have been knowledgeable enough to use the lobotomy trick, or fast enough to keep up with Goku.

[Prime32]

They didn't use Allstar Superman

They determined Superman's strength using a scene where Supes is lifting a weight-simulation machine while someone tells him how much weight he's lifting.

That scene is from All-Star Superman, after Superman's powers get boosted so far beyond their normal levels that they're tearing him apart and he has only one year to live.

[Devonix]

They determined Superman's strength using a scene where Supes is lifting a weight-simulation machine while someone tells him how much weight he's lifting.

That scene is from All-Star Superman, after Superman's powers get boosted so far beyond their normal levels that they're tearing him apart and he has only one year to live.

The actual listed feats that were used for the Deathbattle were all taken from Post Crisis Superman. When they show things from movies and cartoons, that isn't them taking actual feats from those things, it's so that they're not stuck just showing static comic book panels. It's been explained many times that those things don't have an actual bearing on the battles. All Star Superman wasn't included in the research for the character.

And anyway All Star Superman is part of the Post Crisis continuity, it just exists along a parallel timeline. And his boosted powers weren't killing him. Superman doesn't die at the end of that story we actually see it continued later.

[Anteros]

The actual listed feats that were used for the Deathbattle were all taken from Post Crisis Superman. When they show things from movies and cartoons, that isn't them taking actual feats from those things, it's so that they're not stuck just showing static comic book panels. It's been explained many times that those things don't have an actual bearing on the battles. All Star Superman wasn't included in the research for the character.

And anyway All Star Superman is part of the Post Crisis continuity, it just exists along a parallel timeline. And his boosted powers weren't killing him. Superman doesn't die at the end of that story we actually see it continued later.

It's still not consistent. They discount things like Cell saying he can blow up the solar system, or the universe trembling when Goku powers up because they're stated by a character rather than shown on screen. Yet they accept things like "You've been bench pressing the weight of the planet" (or whatever it was) as canon in favor of Supes despite it being the exact same type of informed and not shown feat.

That's what bothers me the most. They're just so blatantly inconsistent and biased, but constantly parrot how "scientific" they are.

[Chives]

It's still not consistent. They discount things like Cell saying he can blow up the solar system, or the universe trembling when Goku powers up because they're stated by a character rather than shown on screen. Yet they accept things like "You've been bench pressing the weight of the planet" (or whatever it was) as canon in favor of Supes despite it being the exact same type of informed and not shown feat.

That's what bothers me the most. They're just so blatantly inconsistent and biased, but constantly parrot how "scientific" they are.

Yeah, that's not even the correct comparison, they're comparing feats of strength vs long-term endurance.