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  1. - Top - End - #1351
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    I think they're probably going to go with "Naruto couldn't see Sage of Six Paths Madara and needed Sasuke's help for that" because I don't think even when he got the superpower up at the end there he could do that.

    But in most of his super modes he can sense both living creatures and emotions (particularly hostile ones directed at him) so it's not likely to be a real hindrance either way.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    And here we go: Naruto vs. Ichigo

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    That was pretty destructive. And they really went further with the explanations than they usually do afterwards. Ichigo was faster, but didn't have anything that could put Naruto down for good. Nor a counter for a point blank Tailed Beast Bomb. I don't know if that's accurate, but as they argued for it, yeah, Naruto can tank a lot of damage as long as he's aware of it. So congratulations on a close win, Naruto.

    To anyone who read both, is this a fair assesment of it?

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    Batman vs. Spider-man. Of the future! Batman Beyond vs. Spider-Man 2099. I only know Batman of those.

  3. - Top - End - #1353
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    I think that went pretty accurately. I'm not sure about the math, but like I said earlier: Naruto has the feats. Everything around Ichigo's power-ups is extremely vague and ill-defined, and his blasts don't really scale in size or demonstrable destructive force as much as Naruto's do.

    I already thought Naruto had it in the bag just from the manga stuff, but once they started pulling from The Last (which is a movie/"anime only" but is Word of God canon) it was pretty much a done deal.

    It seemed like they were actually really generous with Ichigo, giving him the benefit of the doubt on everything AND not pulling from any Boruto material (where if nothing else Naruto has greater control and technique/versatility of moveset and can summon the same raw power albeit seemingly at a delay since he's a bit out of practice), but it went as it should IMO.
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  4. - Top - End - #1354
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Yeah this was apparently pretty one sided with the biggest issue being overwhelming and pinning him down. As for the upcoming fight, I dont even know who this new spiderman IS so just because terry is pretty low power in general im going to say new spidey wins.
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  5. - Top - End - #1355
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Basically he's Spiderman (with all the superpowers that entails) but also with a super suit at least as good as Terry's upgraded batsuit.

    I don't see this going Terry's way.
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  6. - Top - End - #1356
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Basically he's Spiderman (with all the superpowers that entails) but also with a super suit at least as good as Terry's upgraded batsuit.

    I don't see this going Terry's way.
    Yeah, terry is going down. I mean, afaik, the entire point of batman beyond is showing terry learning the ropes from the very start as to how to be batman, and relying on his suit to not be dead on a regular basis. If it was bruce wayne my answer might be different, but this batman doesnt have the sheer physical skill or temperament to take down someone like spiderman in an iron man suit. Yes he has won some impressive fights, but thats protagonist armor, not skill.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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  7. - Top - End - #1357
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    TBF it's not really an "Iron man suit" (that'd be the Iron Spider) it's just it's Spiderman (super strong, super reflexes, super durable, etc.) with super-flexible and tough body armor and gadgets.

    I think Miguel is way weaker than main universe Spidey but he's still superhuman at a base, then with stuff added on top, where Terry is a high schooler that has a suit that mildly increases his base stats.

    It's like a tuned up Formula-1 racer vs a muscle car with a suped up engine. Yeah the muscle car is rad (and looks cooler), but that F-1 is going to make it eat dust.
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  8. - Top - End - #1358
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    I don't think bats can win. He's dealing with a Spider-Man ironman merger

  9. - Top - End - #1359
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I think Miguel is way weaker than main universe Spidey but he's still superhuman at a base, then with stuff added on top, where Terry is a high schooler that has a suit that mildly increases his base stats.
    Miguel has all of Peter's superhuman attributes plus a bit of his own, like organic web-shooters, enhanced senses, and venom -- he's also faster in general.

    Where he lacks relative to Peter is his martial arts training. Since Peter had a whole arc where he learned to actually fight rather than just relying on his precognitive abilities and super-athleticism as he'd been doing since forever, and Miguel hasn't to my knowledge.

  10. - Top - End - #1360
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    At least according to the Marvel wiki, Miguel is at least half as strong as Peter, being able to lift around 10 tons where Peter has been shown on-screen to be able to lift and throw at least 20-40 tons (a big rig semi-truck).

    The point is somewhat moot as Terry is...nowhere near either of those.
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  11. - Top - End - #1361
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    This was a pretty nice fight this time. Definitely a step up in the recent quality.

    As for the next fight, didn't we already have Spiderman vs Batman? Is there any reason this one would be different?
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  12. - Top - End - #1362
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

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    I've only seen it once and I'm a little shell shocked that they did actually do some research. They made it sound plausible that Naturo could defeat Ichigo (numbers on fragor & moon cut don't match comicvine's through). So of course I disagree with the outcome but am actually impressed at some of the finer points they picked up.

    Not sure I liked the fight's animation through which is about the only reason I watch it. Pixels or cartoon, pick one.

  13. - Top - End - #1363
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    This was a pretty nice fight this time. Definitely a step up in the recent quality.

    As for the next fight, didn't we already have Spiderman vs Batman? Is there any reason this one would be different?
    Well there is the fact that its a different batman with different skills and feats against a different spiderman with different skills and feats. Aside from that, nah, totally the same. :p
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  14. - Top - End - #1364
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    I think it's better to look at what they're fighting. Naruto is currently fighting at a multiversal level. Bleach ended up at an existential level.

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    Kaguya has teleported to other dimensions, but was not able to reshape the planet earth.

    Yhwach's ultimate plan was to alter the natural order by removing the three separate planes of existence from existence. When Yhwach absorbed the soul king one of those realities started experiencing an existence failure until another thing stepped in. Ichigo managed to cut this guy. Ichibe has stated that his ult attack removes someone from the natural order. The people at Ichigo's tier aren't just strong, they're dealing with entire concepts (like being able to shoot through anything or fear itself). It's hard to measure that fairly.
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2017-11-08 at 05:15 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #1365
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Didnt kaguya create those other dimensions/planets?
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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  16. - Top - End - #1366
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Didnt kaguya create those other dimensions/planets?
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    This is why I named multiversal. The dimensions being dealt with in Bleach include the afterlife. The wiki says she can rewrite her own ones at a whim. She didn't do that on earth. Yhwach would do that on earth (because earth is a subset of the world of the living). Yhwach also imposed the wahrwelt on another dimension.

    But most importantly, it's the concepts of life, death, fear, etc. that's most impressive.
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2017-11-08 at 05:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Hm... I think the greatest feat the last episode has accomplished is convincing me I don't need to go and read Bleach. I mean a few parts were interesting but just going by their recap I feel no need anymore to go and educate myself.
    Also I think it's a bit weird how close some of their feats were numbers-wise.. Maybe just coincidence.
    I actually rather liked the animation. Yeah, the insertion of some of the Ichigo anime images was a bit strange but overall I like it when they go with sprites.


    Next time... I only know both superficially so it's hard to judge.. From a meta pov my first guess they will want to appease the fans of the person who lost last time... In so far as this is a not quite rematch.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    The problem is that you have a nerfed batman (no where near as extensive combat training or as smart, regardless of his.... origin) in an ironman suit vs a faster yet somewhat weaker spiderman.... in an ironman suit. Without the suit you still got a random dude vs Spiderman. I still think it's a stomp.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    You all are really underselling Terry.

    Plus Spider-Man 2099 lacks original Spider-Mans greatest advantage, Spider Senses.

  20. - Top - End - #1370
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by chainer1216 View Post
    You all are really underselling Terry.
    Not really. I love the guy but when you set up a match that could be summed up Terry saying "Who are you?" and Miguel replying "I'm you but stronger" it's hard to get excited. Miguel literally is stronger, faster, more durable, smarter, and has similar or better gadgets. All Terry has going for him is he's probably way better trained.

    You really don't need precognition to level the playing field when your reflexes are already faster than the opponent and their attacks can't really hurt you.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2017-11-09 at 03:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    Hm... I think the greatest feat the last episode has accomplished is convincing me I don't need to go and read Bleach. I mean a few parts were interesting but just going by their recap I feel no need anymore to go and educate myself.
    Also I think it's a bit weird how close some of their feats were numbers-wise.. Maybe just coincidence.
    I actually rather liked the animation. Yeah, the insertion of some of the Ichigo anime images was a bit strange but overall I like it when they go with sprites.


    Next time... I only know both superficially so it's hard to judge.. From a meta pov my first guess they will want to appease the fans of the person who lost last time... In so far as this is a not quite rematch.
    With bleach I have to admit, at least it went in a different direction than most of its type. Usually its all about naruto style power creep. You unlock new abilities that make you stronger than your previous abilities. With Bleach its all over the place. He gains powers, loses powers, gains new powers, loses powers, regains them, etc etc etc. I guess it helps he was at mountain destroying levels fairly early on in the series, making it hard to really keep going upwards without hitting dbz levels.
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  22. - Top - End - #1372
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Bleach is amazingly good for about the first 55 episodes. After that it gets awful and it never gets any better.

    I don't agree with the outcome of this fight, but I haven't been able to make myself sit through their reasoning for quite a while now, so maybe they made some good points. I wouldn't know. They seemed to arbitrarily cap Ichigo halfway through the series. Using things like the hollow masks which he no longer needs, and having him use a transformation that strips him of his powers for no reason.

    At this point it's basically a staple of Terry's character that he has Bruce giving him advice over the speaker. That's a pretty big advantage if they allow it.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2017-11-09 at 08:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    Next time... I only know both superficially so it's hard to judge.. From a meta pov my first guess they will want to appease the fans of the person who lost last time... In so far as this is a not quite rematch.
    Tell that to Goku's fans...

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Bleach is amazingly good for about the first 55 episodes. After that it gets awful and it never gets any better.

    I don't agree with the outcome of this fight, but I haven't been able to make myself sit through their reasoning for quite a while now, so maybe they made some good points. I wouldn't know. They seemed to arbitrarily cap Ichigo halfway through the series. Using things like the hollow masks which he no longer needs, and having him use a transformation that strips him of his powers for no reason.
    They didn't cap him, they gave him a handicap by assuming every single one of his transformations (including Mugetsu) stacked and all of them gave the same x10 power modifier that is the theoretical max for a Bankai. They also didn't have Naruto use the Truth Seeking Balls at any point, which is another handicap for Ichigo. Indestructible (well, permanently, I know they can be damaged but I'm pretty sure he can just reform them), instantly matter annihilating weaponry would have made this even more one-sided.

    This was one of the best reasoned Death Battles I've ever seen, actually. They went really deep into explaining the different powers and transformations and how they interact with each other.
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  25. - Top - End - #1375
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    They didn't cap him, they gave him a handicap by assuming every single one of his transformations (including Mugetsu) stacked and all of them gave the same x10 power modifier that is the theoretical max for a Bankai. They also didn't have Naruto use the Truth Seeking Balls at any point, which is another handicap for Ichigo. Indestructible (well, permanently, I know they can be damaged but I'm pretty sure he can just reform them), instantly matter annihilating weaponry would have made this even more one-sided.

    This was one of the best reasoned Death Battles I've ever seen, actually. They went really deep into explaining the different powers and transformations and how they interact with each other.
    +They assume that it's a static 10x multiplier (that's probably for a standard shinigami, Bleachigo is not.)
    +They don't factor in timeskip improvements
    +They don't factor in what he's fighting
    +They realized that swords are compressed to not be the size of skyscrapers (this approximation was early in bleach, who even knows what it is later on) but don't realize that bleach characters aren't generally fighting massive numbers so it's possible that they generally concentrate their attack power in a smaller area to do more damage to fewer targets
    +They had him use mugetsu, which is before his final form against Yhwach.
    +They assume that a trip that takes a week is with walking. It isn't. It's with shunpo. That's waaaay faster.

    But forget all of that. A heavy machine gun in Mechwarrior Online deals 0.14 damage per shot. An AWP Magnum Sniper Rifle in counter strike source can hit for over 100 damage on a body shot (about 80 or something on a leg shot). So, if you had a choice between a person in a Raven light mech (35 tons) with a heavy machine gun and 1 ton of ammo on a flat open indestructible surface that is well lit vs a person with an awp, would the awp deal more damage? Numerically yes... but I wonder if an awp would manage to get through even the glass hud armor protecting the pilot.

    Spoilers:
    The point is that, again, compared to what they are fighting naruto is playing counter strike source and ichigo is piloting a mech. The numbers are not comparable. I enjoy both series, but when you have secondary villains
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    (sternritter) who shoot through absolutely anything (Lille Barro), or rewrite reality (Gremmy Thoumeaux), etc. Naruto has never fought anything like that. How do you even measure the power behind a shot that pierces anything. Or the cutting power of a sword that cuts through anything (sayafushi). Which blocked Lille Barro's shot (or not, I guess it was just a hylig fail (heh)) and was blocked by Nianzol Weizol (or not again, that was just the guards).

    As for the killing you so hard you don't reincarnate guy: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Ichib%C4%93_Hy%C5%8Dsube
    http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Futen_Taisatsury%C5%8D
    "Ichibē brings forth a massive amount of blackness from his surroundings with a swing of Ichimonji and fills a sake cup with it before drinking from the cup. While chanting an incantation, Ichibē creates concentric circles of darkness on the ground by swinging Ichimonji around him before stabbing Ichimonji into the floor, creating a large mausoleum with a fence in front on top of shattered gravestones out of the blackness. This technique takes away all of the darkness in his opponent, including their flesh, blood, and bones, until nothing is left; their destruction is so absolute that their soul will not even reincarnate in the Human World. Ichibē claims to create the gravestones by "stealing a hundred nights from Soul Society a hundred years in the future"."

    This guy also had this ability:
    Shikai Special Ability: Whenever Ichibē swings Ichimonji, its blade releases ink. Anything that this ink covers loses its name, and thus its powers.[64] Its power is the power of black: every time Ichibē releases Ichimonji, all of the color black from all beings, dead or alive, becomes his power

    And even that wasn't enough to stop Yhwach.
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2017-11-09 at 02:32 PM.
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  26. - Top - End - #1376
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Because none of that IS power, and none of it really applies to Ichigo. He doesn't GET powers like that. Ichigo from day 1 just has a big stick and gets progressively bigger sticks he can sometimes use at range.

    Saying their power level is overall higher because the powers sometimes deal with weird concepts is like saying the psychics in Yu Yu Hakusho are the most powerful guys in the series because they can do weird **** like eat your soul if you say the taboo word or something.

    It's baseless and, given the guys who beat them mostly use "Hit it with a big stick" as their form of attack, pretty demonstrably untrue.

    How weird and abstract your power is is not an indicator of how strong you are and, again, Ichigo has zero of that kind of power.

    +They assume that it's a static 10x multiplier (that's probably for a standard shinigami, Bleachigo is not.)
    +They don't factor in timeskip improvements
    +They don't factor in what he's fighting
    +They had him use mugetsu, which is before his final form against Yhwach.
    Death Battle has always worked off feats and what numbers are available. Naruto has the feats because Ichigo's don't visibly grow after his fight with frickin' Byakuya at the end of the Soul Society arc. They also don't have numbers because the ONLY number provided is that Bankai can confer up to a 10x power boost. As for using Mugetsu, people keep harping on this, but like I said that's a handicap TO Ichigo, not against him. Assuming forms he has lost or never uses again still exist and stack on top of all of his OTHER power boosts is a major boon to him when they're only giving Naruto things he has actually in canon used together for reals.

    +They assume that a trip that takes a week is with walking. It isn't. It's with shunpo. Thats waaaay faster.
    When do they say walking? I'm not doubting you, since I have little idea how they'd measure how fast shunpo is even supposed to be for there to be a comparison point with how inconsistent Kubo's writing is, but I don't believe they ever specified.

    Which is really the essence of this battle. The fight went to the character with far more clearly defined and demonstrably powerful abilities. The loser was the one whose artist refused to evolve and change the imagery of the fights over the course of the series to reflect any major differences in strength.

    It's the same reason DBZ characters consistently lose fights in Death Battle, mind you. Because DBZ feats have not changed in a looooooooooooong time (planetary destruction is still the biggest on-screen boom the series has unless you count the Broly movie for some reason). All growth in power is INFORMED rather than SHOWN. And shown power growth always trumps informed power growth, since the former can be defined.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    The idea that late-series Naruto is any less heavy with metaphysical BS than Bleach is just wrong. It also has dubious utility for discussing the last fight, because 1) Ichigo never gets those freaky conceptual powers and 2) under Bleach rules, superior spiritual power trumps such powers.

    The fight was decided when DB started pulling stuff from Naruto the Last. Obviously the guy who can blow a hole in the moon and survive a moon-cutting laser, will win a fight against a guy who can at best make a big crater in the ground.

    Ichigo's showing against Yhwach was so lame as to almost be a non-feat. One on one, Ichigo got punked. Like, he couldn't get a single lasting hit in, not even with Bankai. On the contrary, his peak power was crushed in one panel.

    So what did Ichigo require, to get his ultimate Triumph. Well first Tsukishima, one of the people who actually has those significant conceptual BS powers, had to rewrite the past. Then Orihime, a second person who actually has those significant conceptual BS powers, had to fix his sword up. And then Aizen, a third person, had to fool Yhwach's senses, and Ishida, a fourth person had to temporarily nullify all of Yhwach's powers to give them a chance. (Oh, and Renji was there too, but all he did was job.)

    Ichigo's only role in that fight was to swing his sword when there was an opening. Something he demonstrably couldn't even begin to do without all this help. And Naruto has the abilities to block sword strikes just fine.
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  28. - Top - End - #1378
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    gooddragon1's Avatar

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    The idea that late-series Naruto is any less heavy with metaphysical BS than Bleach is just wrong. It also has dubious utility for discussing the last fight, because 1) Ichigo never gets those freaky conceptual powers and 2) under Bleach rules, superior spiritual power trumps such powers.

    The fight was decided when DB started pulling stuff from Naruto the Last. Obviously the guy who can blow a hole in the moon and survive a moon-cutting laser, will win a fight against a guy who can at best make a big crater in the ground.

    Ichigo's showing against Yhwach was so lame as to almost be a non-feat. One on one, Ichigo got punked. Like, he couldn't get a single lasting hit in, not even with Bankai. On the contrary, his peak power was crushed in one panel.

    So what did Ichigo require, to get his ultimate Triumph. Well first Tsukishima, one of the people who actually has those significant conceptual BS powers, had to rewrite the past. Then Orihime, a second person who actually has those significant conceptual BS powers, had to fix his sword up. And then Aizen, a third person, had to fool Yhwach's senses, and Ishida, a fourth person had to temporarily nullify all of Yhwach's powers to give them a chance. (Oh, and Renji was there too, but all he did was job.)

    Ichigo's only role in that fight was to swing his sword when there was an opening. Something he demonstrably couldn't even begin to do without all this help. And Naruto has the abilities to block sword strikes just fine.
    You have a point in that it's ambiguous. My interpretation is Yhwach's powers were nullified, not his durability. He managed to handle Ichigo's former attacks just fine. Ichigo was able to cut him at the end. Also:

    Spoiler
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    "With his cracked Bankai in hand, Ichigo leaps toward Yhwach, who is beginning to regain his powers and seemingly shatters the blade in his hand. However, the blade instead crumbles to reveal the original Zangetsu in Ichigo's hands, prompting a stunned Yhwach to realize that this is what Haschwalth was trying to warn him about with his dream as Ichigo cuts him in two."

    http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Yhwach


    You guys focus on feats, but it's like I said with the numbers between two games. Sometimes they aren't equivalent.

    In the Naruto series we see Shinigami being summoned and doing some stuff. What we didn't see afterwards was Ichigo asking the coffee boy Shinigami what was with the weird getup when he got back with the coffee and doughnuts for him and his buddies.

    I accept that I won't convince you (the nature of most discussions like this on the internet), but I figured I'd at least state my reasoning. It's fine either way for me.

    EDIT: They did assume shunpo. But not it's upper limit. They approximated that Ichibe closed the distance between him and yhwach after knocking him about 2000 miles away. That's a feat, but it's not an upper limit.

    EDIT2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkeJbi9uL8s (2 minutes 10 seconds)
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2017-11-09 at 07:45 PM.
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  29. - Top - End - #1379
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    The problem is you can't make a comparison like you made anyway. We have NO IDEA of the numbers being used in Bleach. That's what feat comparisons are FOR. Lifting a 10 ton object is demonstrably stronger than lifting a 5 ton one, for example and in absence of Word of God stating the guy only ever shown lifting a 5 ton thing is actually CAPABLE of lifting 20 but never does, you go with what has been shown on-screen.

    I also don't see why you'd assume Bleach is the mecha and Naruto is the sniper rifle in any case. Ichigo is the one who is the most focused on single combat, Naruto is the one who does single combat AND wide area attacks/large scale battles. I mean he even beats Ichigo in the video as what is, basically, a fantasy mecha.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2017-11-09 at 06:46 PM.
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  30. - Top - End - #1380
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Ok so I broke down and watched the "reasoning". Didn't they calculate that Ichigo is light speed? At best the fight should have come down to a stalemate where Ichigo can't get through Naruto's durability but Naruto will never, ever be able to hit Ichigo under any circumstances. It sure is a good thing he just decided to use the one move in his arsenal that probably isn't even as strong as his base at the end of the series, and that robs him of all powers.

    My favorite part is where they "calculate" Naruto's chakra by "measuring" the hole he leaves in a moon despite the fact we have no idea how big that hole is, how far away the moon is, or how big this moon is. They basically pulled out a completely random number from their ass and called it math.

    This is why I stopped watching these blurbs. It's physically painful how stupid it is.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2017-11-09 at 06:52 PM.

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