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  1. - Top - End - #1381
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by chainer1216 View Post
    You all are really underselling Terry.

    Plus Spider-Man 2099 lacks original Spider-Mans greatest advantage, Spider Senses.
    He has super sight. Literal. Super. Sight. It's not omni like normal Spidey senses, but it's a damn good sub for what it's worth. On top of that he can see in near complete darkness, and supposedly the infrared as well. Add on top of that Spidey reflexes, a paralysis poison, real webs and claws, some of Spidey strength, Spidey speed, an anti gravity suit and A FREAKING GENIUS INTELLIGENCE and it's a stomp.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    He has super sight. Literal. Super. Sight. It's not omni like normal Spidey senses, but it's a damn good sub for what it's worth. On top of that he can see in near complete darkness, and supposedly the infrared as well. Add on top of that Spidey reflexes, a paralysis poison, real webs and claws, some of Spidey strength, Spidey speed, an anti gravity suit and A FREAKING GENIUS INTELLIGENCE and it's a stomp.
    The Beyond Suit can go invisible, so that negates most of that advantage. I still think Terry loses in a stomp though. He struggles against normal non-powered opponents all the time.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    I think they said that ichigo is faster than lightning strikes which is apparently not the same as light speed? I dunno. As for the size of the hole in the moon, obviously that requires assumptions. Such as the moon is the size of ours, the same distance from his world as ours, therefore being able to see the earth through the hole means its roughly so and so big. That sort of thing. Yeah if even one of those assumptions is wrong it throws the whole thing off, but its the best they can do when the other option is "Meh, ignore it since we cant quantify it in a way thats scientifically precise and confirmed."
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I think they said that ichigo is faster than lightning strikes which is apparently not the same as light speed? I dunno. As for the size of the hole in the moon, obviously that requires assumptions. Such as the moon is the size of ours, the same distance from his world as ours, therefore being able to see the earth through the hole means its roughly so and so big. That sort of thing. Yeah if even one of those assumptions is wrong it throws the whole thing off, but its the best they can do when the other option is "Meh, ignore it since we cant quantify it in a way thats scientifically precise and confirmed."
    Yup, Lightning does not move at lightspeed. It's approximately 220,000,000 MPH, which is approximately 1/3 the speed of light.

    And Naruto has dodged stuff moving at Lightning speeds as well, so even if Ichigo has a speed advantage, it's not a very big one.
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  5. - Top - End - #1385
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    I'm only familiar with BB, not S99, so somebody please correct me, but I have to ask: Does Miguel have the Batman (or equivalent) whispering in his ear at all times?

    Pretty sure that makes for a potent asset we haven't discussed. Not saying it's determinative, I agree that Terry's been trounced by enemies stronger than him and any Spidey - or other super - would be stronger than him, but the actual freaking Batman is pretty good at identifying enemies and their weaknesses, and I can't help but feel he'd be coaching Terry hard on this one.
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  6. - Top - End - #1386
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Fair enough. I was going off what someone else on another forum said that they stated he was faster than light. I couldn't make myself watch the whole video so I just assumed it was in a part I skipped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    I'm only familiar with BB, not S99, so somebody please correct me, but I have to ask: Does Miguel have the Batman (or equivalent) whispering in his ear at all times?

    Pretty sure that makes for a potent asset we haven't discussed. Not saying it's determinative, I agree that Terry's been trounced by enemies stronger than him and any Spidey - or other super - would be stronger than him, but the actual freaking Batman is pretty good at identifying enemies and their weaknesses, and I can't help but feel he'd be coaching Terry hard on this one.
    I did mention it earlier, but I'm not sure it matters. According to DB Bats already loses to Spidey, so I'm not sure how much they will value his coaching against discount Spidey. That's assuming they don't just disallow it entirely due to the "no outside help" rule.

    Of course, they probably will have Terry win just because they had Spidey win before.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2017-11-09 at 08:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    I just like the correlation between this DB and the next one; this one was "Shonen hero who has a kid that takes up his mantle" and next week is "Superhero who took up a previous hero's mantle".
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Fair enough. I was going off what someone else on another forum said that they stated he was faster than light. I couldn't make myself watch the whole video so I just assumed it was in a part I skipped.
    They said NARUTO was faster than light, since he was shown dodging an attack explicitly stated by Kishimoto to move at the speed of light from less than 6 inches away.

    I can't remember their reasoning for Ichigo but they did actually rule Ichigo had a faster move speed than Naruto IIRC, it's just that Naruto had a faster REACTION time (or was it the other way around?). I do know Ichigo had Naruto beaten by a fair margin in one of the speed related categories, in any case. It just wasn't wide enough to make up for Naruto's healing factor and general tankiness plus superior damage output.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    You have a point in that it's ambiguous. My interpretation is Yhwach's powers were nullified, not his durability. He managed to handle Ichigo's former attacks just fine.
    1) defense for Quincies is part of their abilities, primarily Blut. Yhwach's abilities were nullified, ergo his defense was nullified.
    2) defense for Quincies is also an either-or-choice. If you want to argue Yhwach was at peak durability, you'd have to show he was using Blut Vene. Given he was a) attacking and b) recovering from having his powers nullified, this is doubtfull.
    3) immediately prior to the final fight, Yhwach took back Ichigo's Quincy powers. So Ichigo was weaker than he was in their one-on-one fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1
    You guys focus on feats, but it's like I said with the numbers between two games. Sometimes they aren't equivalent.

    In the Naruto series we see Shinigami being summoned and doing some stuff. What we didn't see afterwards was Ichigo asking the coffee boy Shinigami what was with the weird getup when he got back with the coffee and doughnuts for him and his buddies.
    1) That Shinobi in Naruto have techniques to summon and compel Shinigami is not in Ichigo's favor in any shape or form.
    2) Shinigami under Bleach are immensely variable, with the average Reaper being not much more impressive than ordinary humans, and people like Ichibei and Yama-jii at the upper end. So just stating that Naruto Shinigami and Bleach Shinigami are same sort of being is not an usefull comparison. You also have to establish where Naruto Shinigami stands relative to Bleach baseline. Since Naruto Shinigami acts almost entirely unlike Bleach Shinigami, this is extremely difficult to do. The only usefull way to estimate this is the strength of beings that the Shinigami can hold in its belly. This includes people such as A) Senju Tobirama, inventor of teleportation and impure world reincarnation. Estimated spiritual power: high. B) Senju Hashirama, past reincarnation of Asura, able to fight Tailed Beasts one-on-one and leveling mountains. Estimated spiritual power: really high. C) One half of Kurama the nine-tailed fox, the other half of which could blast holes in mountains and escape from an artificial gravity well that could create a spherical asteroid. Confirmed spiritual power: stupidly high. As should be obvious, any comparison which establishes Naruto high on Bleach scale of power automatically establishes the Shinigami in Naruto to also be high on Bleach scale of power.
    3) Rinnegan users can tear out a person's soul just the same as the Shinigami. The DB video even shows the scene where this is done to Naruto. Since Naruto, by the end of the series, has fought and prevailed against five Rinnegan users, it's dubious why you think Ichigo's status as a Shinigami is at all relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1
    I accept that I won't convince you (the nature of most discussions like this on the internet), but I figured I'd at least state my reasoning. It's fine either way for me.
    You're not convincing me because I've done this cross-comparison dozen times before and more and more evidence has cropped up in favor of Naruto verse being more powerfull at the high end than Bleach verse. Naruto the Last just seals it. Bleach never gets to moon-busting levels. Only one character in Bleach could reasonably claim feats of similar magnitude, and his name is Yhwach the Almighty, not Ichigo Kurosaki.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Ok so I broke down and watched the "reasoning". Didn't they calculate that Ichigo is light speed?
    No. They calculated Naruto as lightspeed. Ichigo's reaction time exceeds that, but his movement speed does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros
    At best the fight should have come down to a stalemate where Ichigo can't get through Naruto's durability but Naruto will never, ever be able to hit Ichigo under any circumstances.
    Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Ichigo's real speed was lower, and higher reaction speed does not actually allow you to dodge attacks with greater real speeds. This is a plot point in both Naruto and Bleach, so under no interpretation of either series would the given numbers have Ichigo come out on top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros
    It sure is a good thing he just decided to use the one move in his arsenal that probably isn't even as strong as his base at the end of the series, and that robs him of all powers.
    This shows you didn't pay attention. DB assume Final Getsuga stacked on top of all other forms and base increases. This way of reasoning gave Ichigo something like 10000x multiplier from his basic Bankai at the end of Soul Society Arc, something entirely insubstantiated by what happens in the series. Stupid complaint it stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros
    My favorite part is where they "calculate" Naruto's chakra by "measuring" the hole he leaves in a moon despite the fact we have no idea how big that hole is, how far away the moon is, or how big this moon is. They basically pulled out a completely random number from their ass and called it math.
    1) Naruto verse is Earth-like setting, the Moon must be assumed to be the Moon unless proven otherwise.
    2) Naruto the Last provides enough shots of the Moon to calculate its size. It's true they didn't do it in the video, but that's not a fatal flaw because:
    3) in order to get a win for Ichigo, you would have to low ball Naruto Moon to be smaller than Seireitei. Nothing anywhere supports this.

    Stupid complaint is stupid.
    Last edited by Frozen_Feet; 2017-11-10 at 01:58 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #1390
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    You know, I think we all missed the biggest reason that Ichigo lost: It took place in Naruto's universe, not Ichigo's.

    And as previously established every sword user in Naruto ends up dying in their first real onscreen fight using it.

    Even Itachi dies less than 30 seconds after he draws a sword!

    The only exception is Sasuke but lets be real he uses his sword more often (and to more success) as a springboard than a weapon and never accomplishes anything with it either.

    Therefore we can assume that an immutable, underlying Law of the Naruto universe is: Swords are useless. Therefore Ichigo had no chance to begin with.

    (B doesn't count. Those are clearly just long knives.)
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2017-11-10 at 12:55 PM. Reason: "Getting dying"
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Counterpoint the first: Orochimaru also used a sword, didn't die in his fight against Sarutobi and landed a fatal blow on him.

    Counterpoint the second: Tsunade used a big honking sword in the fight against Orochimaru and Kabuto, didn't die and pinned Manda to the ground with it.

    Counterpoint the third: Kisame doesn't die in his first real fight and he succesfully infiltrated an enemy stronghold while disguised as his sword.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post

    Stupid complaint is stupid.
    Do you always act like this over silly discussions about cartoon characters?
    Last edited by Anteros; 2017-11-10 at 08:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Counterpoint the first: Orochimaru also used a sword, didn't die in his fight against Sarutobi and landed a fatal blow on him.
    Orochimaru was dead the whole time, he cheated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Counterpoint the second: Tsunade used a big honking sword in the fight against Orochimaru and Kabuto, didn't die and pinned Manda to the ground with it.
    She did LOSE that fight, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Counterpoint the third: Kisame doesn't die in his first real fight and he succesfully infiltrated an enemy stronghold while disguised as his sword.
    Samehada is not a sword. It is a club with sandpaper on it.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Such as the moon is the size of ours, the same distance from his world as ours, therefore being able to see the earth through the hole means its roughly so and so big. That sort of thing.
    That's kind of what I spoke of before. Our solid moon takes 1.24x10^29 joules to completely destroy but Naruto's moon is hollow and DB claimed that Toneri's matter destroying sword swipe which cut through the moon was worth 27,000,000,000,000mt, that's 1.12x10^29 joules.

    So according to Death Battle, Naruto's moon is significantly larger than our own in order to account for things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    They said NARUTO was faster than light, since he was shown dodging an attack explicitly stated by Kishimoto to move at the speed of light from less than 6 inches away.
    Actually Light Fang fires at light speed but Madara used it as a sword sweeping it at the speed of turning his head at Naruto which is significantly slower. The anime added the scene where it fires at Naruto however they also added the trait that the beam was momentarily stopped by Naruto's Truth Seeking Ball. And what this actually means is Madara successfully hit Naruto in his highest transformation, putting Naruto well below light speed and not above it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    1) defense for Quincies is part of their abilities, primarily Blut. Yhwach's abilities were nullified, ergo his defense was nullified.
    2) defense for Quincies is also an either-or-choice. If you want to argue Yhwach was at peak durability, you'd have to show he was using Blut Vene. Given he was a) attacking and b) recovering from having his powers nullified, this is doubtfull.
    3) immediately prior to the final fight, Yhwach took back Ichigo's Quincy powers. So Ichigo was weaker than he was in their one-on-one fight.
    Someone didn't finish reading Bleach before commenting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    This shows you didn't pay attention. DB assume Final Getsuga stacked on top of all other forms and base increases. This way of reasoning gave Ichigo something like 10000x multiplier from his basic Bankai at the end of Soul Society Arc, something entirely insubstantiated by what happens in the series.
    Yes I thought that was odd too. But for what I feel is fairly obvious reasons. They used Toshiro vs Shawlong is "sort of like" Ichigo vs Grimmjow to claim Ichigo's mask was x5 and then they made a big deal out of rounding it up to x10.

    But the comparisons are not equal. It's true that Toshiro's limit release, or x5, was enough to turn the tide against the 11th ranked Shawlong whom was already using his resurrection. But Grimmjow was curb stomping bankai Ichigo while in his base form. With a nearly broken mask, Ichigo was easily able to tank some of resurrected Grimmjow's more powerful attacks and effortlessly overpowered him towards the end. They quickly repeat this again few moments later over hollowfied bankai Ichigo is barely able to keep up with base form Ulquiorra whom will later undo two transformations and still be curb stomped by just one of Ichigo's. Then this gets repeated again when Hollowfied bankai Ichigo cannot keep up with base form Aizen, then Aizen gets both a true hollowfication & a resurrection on top of that but Ichigo's "dangai" addition completely makes up the difference some much that Aizen needs to gain and use the second resurrection state of Arrancars just to keep up. Death Battle glossed over an entire super transformations so they could sell the idea that they were over estimating Ichigo.
    Last edited by Mato; 2017-11-10 at 01:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    Someone didn't finish reading Bleach before commenting.
    Look we're arguing about a silly internet video but we're not ALL masochists.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Look we're arguing about a silly internet video but we're not ALL masochists.
    lmao.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Do you always act like this over silly discussions about cartoon characters?
    I act like this in every non-serious discussion.

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    @Mato:

    Either specify what you thought was wrong with my three points regarding Ichigo and Yhwach or GTFO, since I reread the last volume of Bleach and all of them are trivially true.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Do you always act like this over silly discussions about cartoon characters?
    To be fair this is literally the place people go to have very serious silly discussions about cartoon characters.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    The Beyond Suit can go invisible, so that negates most of that advantage. I still think Terry loses in a stomp though. He struggles against normal non-powered opponents all the time.
    Beyond still gave off heat, which can be picked up on infrared, which discount Spidey can see on. Stealth suit though, the one that DIDN'T give off heat and was pretty much invisible to virtually all forms of detection (pretty sure magic and precog was the only sure ways of detecting it), is not standard beyond suit. Terry doesn't have as extensive stealth training as Bruce anyway, and honestly Damien would of made a better opponent. Hell, aged to adult Damien with the beyond suit might actually be a tough fight.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Samehada is not a sword. It is a club with sandpaper on it.
    Wasn't Samehada that gift-wrapped demon-shark abomination on a stick?
    More of a pet than a weapon in my book.
    I mean I can distinctly recall it cuddling with the rapping Lorenor Zorro on crack.
    That alone disqualifies it as a weapon.
    Well, maybe in One Piece...
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Wasn't Samehada that gift-wrapped demon-shark abomination on a stick?
    More of a pet than a weapon in my book.
    I mean I can distinctly recall it cuddling with the rapping Lorenor Zorro on crack.
    That alone disqualifies it as a weapon.
    Well, maybe in One Piece...
    This is also true, but its "base form" is a big club with shark-sandpaper on it. =p
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    This is also true, but its "base form" is a big club with shark-sandpaper on it. =p
    True enough.
    I mostly wanted to use the phrase „rapping Lorenor Zorro on crack”.
    How could I let such a opportunity pass?
    Last edited by Kantaki; 2017-11-10 at 05:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Either specify what you thought was wrong with my three points regarding Ichigo and Yhwach or GTFO, since I reread the last volume of Bleach and all of them are trivially true.
    You could either be nice and say please or read the chapter(s). Abrupt rudeness and profanity are never acceptable.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    On a totally different subject, Homura Akemi vs Sakuya Izayoi.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    On a totally different subject, Homura Akemi vs Sakuya Izayoi.
    They both lose. I never heard of either therefore they must be so weaksauce hitting earths gravity causes them to collapse and die.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    You could either be nice and say please or read the chapter(s). Abrupt rudeness and profanity are never acceptable.
    And you could actually make a specific point instead of vague insinuations.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    And you could actually make a specific point instead of vague insinuations.
    Seeing how the point comes from something extremely obvious I don't feel I have been vague at any point, and I have even touched on this in the Bleach thread before over in relation to the previous arc's statement of Hollow-powers are literal poison to Qunicies.

    But anyway, when Ywach was hit by the silver arrow he fully became a normal man in power and apperance. But it only works for an instant and Ishida says Ichigo won't make it in time shortly before Ywach became covered in the black eye-liquid he obtained after adsorbing the Soul King and Ywach once again reached out and shatters Ichigo's bankai proving he is capable of using his Almighty as well which simply proves Uryu's statement to be correct.

    How you came up with the idea that Ywach was powerless I don't know. But then again you missed how Ichigo's power intermingles which comes up in just about every major arc and the huge plot point of Tsukishima rewriting Ichigo's past allowing his unrepairable bankai to be fixed because it was never broken to begin with just so you could make other claims as well.
    Last edited by Mato; 2017-11-11 at 11:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    "Hollow powers are poison to Quincies" didn't help Ichigo at all in his previous fights against Yhwach. It only helps to explain why Ichigo could hurt Yhwach at all, but is no proof that Yhwach was at peak durability.

    More, Yhwach was only partially covered in the black liquid when Ichigo struck. He was recovering, not recovered, so the idea that he was at peak power and durability remains dubious.

    Since I pointed out what Tsukishima did myself, it remains an open question WTF you think I'm not reading.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    On a totally different subject, Homura Akemi vs Sakuya Izayoi.
    Well they're both time manipulators, Homura can pause and reverse time, while Sakuya according to what I've read can do more than that. Sakuya seems to have mastered her time manipulation abilities more, so I'd give the win to her.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    "Hollow powers are poison to Quincies" didn't help Ichigo at all in his previous fights against Yhwach. It only helps to explain why Ichigo could hurt Yhwach at all, but is no proof that Yhwach was at peak durability.
    This is pretty much what I'm talking about. In the chapter before this a nearly-out-of-reiatsu Ichigo just stabbed and killed a nearly peak-powered Yhwach forcing him to, as he admits, to rewrite his death.

    The entire point of the shuffle was to show you that the Almighty wasn't nearly as omnipotent has Yhwach claimed it was and it showed Yhwach's earlier statement that he cannot afford to make a mistake against Ichigo was completely true. And Yhwach's biggest mistake was putting no value into Haschwalth's warning, he had seen his defeat with the Almighty but in his overconfidence he choose to treat it as some kind of entertaining dream rather than a reality that he needed to overwrite until it was too late.

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