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  1. - Top - End - #1411
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Unfortunately the truncated ending of bleach makes working out details for feats fairly difficult. The reality though is that Bleach has serious inconsistencies and little to no hard numbers. The Death Battle guys literally gave ichigo every advantage they could think of and the math was still against him. If you feel the need to blame anyone blame Kubo for giving up on the series after the Soul Society arc. Or I guess blame the weekly manga industry and his editors for driving him insane.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    The Death Battle guys literally gave ichigo every advantage they could think of and the math was still against him.
    I guess you missed my post on the previous page that showed how DB claimed slicing through a hollow moon took nearly as much energy as destroy a solid version of it or how Marada's attack actually hit Naruto putting his Six Sage transformation specs well below light speed.

    They also went the route of power scaling on Ichigo which is probably the worst way to quantify things but that's what they went with and the low balled it. Tosen quantifies hollowfication to be more powerful than a bankai even without knowing the scale of his resurrection and this is fairly consistently depicted as during the second major arc Ichigo uses less transformation power stacking than his opponents do. Fragor is also a bad attack to scale off of, you can't see how deep the hole is so it's size is unknown and since it leaves a clean edge of annihilation you can't calculate it's actual or even peak power, just a minimum estimation which is the exact opposite of what they claimed they were trying to do.

    It's pretty much DB's calling card. They tilt both sides of their research on the character they expected to win and then sit back as all the discussions draw them clicks & shares.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    I guess you missed my post on the previous page that showed how DB claimed slicing through a hollow moon took nearly as much energy as destroy a solid version of it or how Marada's attack actually hit Naruto putting his Six Sage transformation specs well below light speed.

    They also went the route of power scaling on Ichigo which is probably the worst way to quantify things but that's what they went with and the low balled it. Tosen quantifies hollowfication to be more powerful than a bankai even without knowing the scale of his resurrection and this is fairly consistently depicted as during the second major arc Ichigo uses less transformation power stacking than his opponents do. Fragor is also a bad attack to scale off of, you can't see how deep the hole is so it's size is unknown and since it leaves a clean edge of annihilation you can't calculate it's actual or even peak power, just a minimum estimation which is the exact opposite of what they claimed they were trying to do.

    It's pretty much DB's calling card. They tilt both sides of their research on the character they expected to win and then sit back as all the discussions draw them clicks & shares.
    Doesn't Tosen lose to a normal captain? Well, the lieutenant was helping as well, but considering Ichigo took out three lieutenants with his bare hands, pre-bankai release, that shouldn't have been a factor. Point is, Tosen didn't get that big of a power up from going hollow.

    Speaking of hollows, sure they may have done a high estimate of the power required to slice open a hollow moon, but that feat is still orders of magnitude higher then anything shown by Ichigo. I think the closest feat in comparison is Kempachi destroying a meteor. It's like saying blowing up a continent isn't that impressive because the continent was Australia. It may be the smallest one, but it's still a continent.
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  4. - Top - End - #1414
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Doesn't Tosen lose to a normal captain?
    No, with his recently obtained vision he forgets how to sense his opponents and his sneak attacking Lieutenant he trained unfatally stabbed him in the back of the neck which became a crowning moment of awesome when we all realized you can release your zanpakuto after stabbing someone.

    Also masked Tosen was capable of injuring Sajin's giant bankai which up to that point had never even been injured on screen. And while the bankai was capable of breaking Tosen's arm putting them near the same area of physical strength, Tosen also had high-speed regeneration and we never seen the extent of his power with a cero to fully quantify the gain. And resurrection Tosen was capable of defeating it in one shot and effortlessly blocked it's attacks. Point is, Tozen most certainly did get a power up that allowed him to fight against the second strongest physically-enhancing focused bankai in the series without even needing to use his shiki. Please read the source material before running with speculations, it's pretty much the entire point of every post in here to one degree or another on just about every subject discussed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I think the closest feat in comparison is Kempachi destroying a meteor.
    Using Fade-To-Black's 400ri, DB's 1ri = 3.9km, rough estimation the meteor was 1/4 the size of Seireitei, and the inaccuracies of a Star Wars fan it takes 240 teratons to overcome the gravitation energy but 221,000 teratons to completely vaporize it. So if we for a number somewhere in the middle since we can see some rocks falling but most of the meteor is destroyed, Kenpachi's casual sword swings (bankai & no eyepatch) by the end of Bleach comes out to around 4x10^28j more or less.

    You can play around with the numbers some on size & amount destroyed if you like, but Death Battle claimed Toneri's most powerful attack, the golden sword that cut through the moon, was 1.157x10^29j. So Kenpachi's basic one-handed sword swing is around 1/10th the slicing type attack DB claims a fully transformed Naruto could block even through is sliced the moon behind Naruto just fine (ie Naruto dodge it). So yes, the meteor could be very comparable, if we wanted to say Kenpachi can beat Naruto instead of saying Naruto beats Ichigo.
    Last edited by Mato; 2017-11-13 at 06:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    No, with his recently obtained vision he forgets how to sense his opponents and his sneak attacking Lieutenant he trained unfatally stabbed him in the back of the neck which became a crowning moment of awesome when we all realized you can release your zanpakuto after stabbing someone.

    Also masked Tosen was capable of injuring Sajin's giant bankai which up to that point had never even been injured on screen. And while the bankai was capable of breaking Tosen's arm putting them near the same area of physical strength, Tosen also had high-speed regeneration and we never seen the extent of his power with a cero to fully quantify the gain. And resurrection Tosen was capable of defeating it in one shot and effortlessly blocked it's attacks. Point is, Tozen most certainly did get a power up that allowed him to fight against the second strongest physically-enhancing focused bankai in the series without even needing to use his shiki. Please read the source material before running with speculations, it's pretty much the entire point of every post in here to one degree or another on just about every subject discussed.

    Using Fade-To-Black's 400ri, DB's 1ri = 3.9km, rough estimation the meteor was 1/4 the size of Seireitei, and the inaccuracies of a Star Wars fan it takes 240 teratons to overcome the gravitation energy but 221,000 teratons to completely vaporize it. So if we for a number somewhere in the middle since we can see some rocks falling but most of the meteor is destroyed, Kenpachi's casual sword swings (bankai & no eyepatch) by the end of Bleach comes out to around 4x10^28j more or less.

    You can play around with the numbers some on size & amount destroyed if you like, but Death Battle claimed Toneri's most powerful attack, the golden sword that cut through the moon, was 1.157x10^29j. So Kenpachi's basic one-handed sword swing is around 1/10th the slicing type attack DB claims a fully transformed Naruto could block even through is sliced the moon behind Naruto just fine (ie Naruto dodge it). So yes, the meteor could be very comparable, if we wanted to say Kenpachi can beat Naruto instead of saying Naruto beats Ichigo.
    That sure sounds like being defeated to me.

    How often was it on screen in the first place? I don't know if the manga went into more detail, but the only fights I remember it being in is an abortive one against Kempachi, a 1 hit KO vs Aizen, beating Arrancar #2's minion, and against Tosen. Again, maybe that's just the anime being bad at showing things, but I never got the impression it was any stronger then any other bankai.

    Yeah, Tosen got a power up, but it didn't seem to be much more of one. He wasn't beating Sajin like say, Uliqora was beating Ichigo. So either Sajin was just stronger then Tosen by a lot to start with, or the boost wasn't actually that massive.

    So going by your own words, doesn't that puts Ichigo somewhere between 10 and 100 times weaker then Naruto? And that feat was Kempachi's not his. I stopped watching by that point so I don't know the details, but doesn't Kempachi have more raw strength then Ichigo?
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  6. - Top - End - #1416
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    I guess you missed my post on the previous page that showed how DB claimed slicing through a hollow moon took nearly as much energy as destroy a solid version of it or how Marada's attack actually hit Naruto putting his Six Sage transformation specs well below light speed.

    They also went the route of power scaling on Ichigo which is probably the worst way to quantify things but that's what they went with and the low balled it. Tosen quantifies hollowfication to be more powerful than a bankai even without knowing the scale of his resurrection and this is fairly consistently depicted as during the second major arc Ichigo uses less transformation power stacking than his opponents do. Fragor is also a bad attack to scale off of, you can't see how deep the hole is so it's size is unknown and since it leaves a clean edge of annihilation you can't calculate it's actual or even peak power, just a minimum estimation which is the exact opposite of what they claimed they were trying to do.

    It's pretty much DB's calling card. They tilt both sides of their research on the character they expected to win and then sit back as all the discussions draw them clicks & shares.
    Considering the sheer mass involved and the fact the animation still shows some significant moon present there they were certainly not out of line using a solid example to gauge power.

    As for power stacking I am aware that Ichigo does not seem to be stacking his various forms throughout the series as were they, allowing him to stack them all at once in a multiplicative way was a way to give him more credit from a spiritual power perspective since Master Troll Kubo never gave consistent numbers for power levels and did very little to establish Ichigo's growth as the baseline power for various enemies constantly seemed to vary. Also the hole's depth is irrelevant since as you said we don't have a good shot of its depth, the best way to then calculate is to assume it is at least as deep as it is wide. If you feel there was a better method to calculate the power level other then allowing him to stack his forms by all means share.

    And I get what you're saying, I rather despise the show at this point for its general lack of intelectial dishonesty, see my aformentioned complaint about a certain sand ninja getting burgled during his death match or the fact that they have twice had actual material from creators or in universe sources claiming who would win in a fight but went the other way. But there just isn't a lot of room to complain on this one. The best bet you would really have is to point out that Boruto's dad mentions that he has gotten rusty during some of the Boruto material and claim they used a version of him stronger then his current form.
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  7. - Top - End - #1417
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    The entire "they gave Ichigo the benefit of the doubt" argument relies on accepting that the numbers they're using for a base and for multipliers are even accurate in the first place. Considering that they are fabricated entirely from whole cloth based on "when this completely different character powered up in the same fight they said it was a 5X increase" it's not compelling. Their entire argument is "haha we're giving Ichigo the benefit of the doubt because some other character's power up wasn't very large" That's...just no.

    For Naruto, if they truly did calculate the moon's mass as if it is not actually hollow like Mato claims, then Naruto's durability isn't right either. I'm quite sure that tracking down the mass of the moon, calculating how much energy it would take to shoot a beam through it, and then comparing to a hollow version is way too much work for me to bother doing though.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2017-11-14 at 06:46 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #1418
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Batman blerb up. I still think Spidey stomps. Again.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Lets see what the spidey strength gets rated at as terry gets 10x human. Also we have to see how they decide to deal with the bruce wayne outside help thing, and what level of martial arts skills he has at his best. Im calling it now. terry gets stomped, but right as spidey goes for the death blow, bruces dog shows up and tears his arm off.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    X10 human strength or HIS strength? Average deadlift for someone that doesn't train, which Terry initially didn't, is about roughly 155 pounds. X10 that and you're still shy of a ton, and Spidey can lift 10x that, atleast.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    X10 human strength or HIS strength? Average deadlift for someone that doesn't train, which Terry initially didn't, is about roughly 155 pounds. X10 that and you're still shy of a ton, and Spidey can lift 10x that, atleast.
    Terry might not be a professional deadlifter, but he was still always shown as very athletic. I'd expect him to be above average in that aspect. He's probably around 200lbs and a high school athlete. His deadlift is probably somewhere between 200-300lbs. Deadlift is more technique than raw strength at that level though, so it really doesn't mean much.

    Future Spidey isn't as strong as the original recipe, right? I'd guess they're pretty close but I'm not actually familiar with this Spidey. Given the nature of comics I'm sure they both have a feat somewhere that's far beyond what they should actually be capable of. It just depends which one DB cherry picks to favor their argument.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2017-11-16 at 09:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Terry might not be a professional deadlifter, but he was still always shown as very athletic. I'd expect him to be above average in that aspect. He's probably around 200lbs and a high school athlete. His deadlift is probably somewhere between 200-300lbs. Deadlift is more technique than raw strength at that level though, so it really doesn't mean much.

    Future Spidey isn't as strong as the original recipe, right? I'd guess they're pretty close but I'm not actually familiar with this Spidey. Given the nature of comics I'm sure they both have a feat somewhere that's far beyond what they should actually be capable of. It just depends which one DB cherry picks to favor their argument.
    Putting Terry above average clocks him at roughly a ton, which is wrong, cause I remember him flipping a car once. Spidey tho is still at min a 10 ton. It's a stomp unless they count the episode of the suit being hijacked, in which case bats can jack the suit, put his own skill in, and while Spidey still wins on strength, skill is something old bats has for years

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Don't both of these character regularly time travel? They should just resolve it by them going back in time and the original characters having a re-match.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Which results in a stomp... again. Hell, Iron Spider is a thing.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Which results in a stomp... again. Hell, Iron Spider is a thing.
    Well, under death battle rules probably. If it's a rematch that plays more to the Bat's strengths though.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Well, under death battle rules probably. If it's a rematch that plays more to the Bat's strengths though.
    Honestly that wouldn't change much. Parkers power set really does negate a ton of Batman's advantages.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Honestly that wouldn't change much. Parkers power set really does negate a ton of Batman's advantages.
    If you say so. We're talking about the guy who has taken down Darkseid or other planet busters when he has time to plan. Spidey is honestly so far out of his weight class it's ridiculous. He gets stomped by all but the very lowest showings of Bats.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2017-11-17 at 08:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    I think the only thing Terry has going for him is that he DID trade blows with superman, who supposedly wasn't holding back
    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    If you say so. We're talking about the guy who has taken down Darkseid or other planet busters when he has time to plan.
    Prep time is busted, and Parker has created similar when given the same
    Last edited by HolyDraconus; 2017-11-17 at 08:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    I think the only thing Terry has going for him is that he DID trade blows with superman, who supposedly wasn't holding back
    Well, by death battle logic that gives him infinite durability. Ugh. They're so dumb sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    I think the only thing Terry has going for him is that he DID trade blows with superman, who supposedly wasn't holding back

    Prep time is busted, and Parker has created similar when given the same
    When? I've never seen any such example. Not to say that he's not an impressive scientist or whatever, but he's not making armors that can beat up Superman.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2017-11-17 at 08:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    When? I've never seen any such example. Not to say that he's not an impressive scientist or whatever, but he's not making armors that can beat up Superman.
    In the past he did assemble gadgets to deal with the likes of Electro, Hydroman, and Venom before - villains that have a specific weaknesses that aren't punching or webs - usually with cheap-ish things using his MacGuyver-esque resourcefulness and limited cash on hand... but his post-Secret Wars iteration has Tony Stark-levels of tech and money in a business which was initially aimed at building and selling tech to counter and contain high tier villains.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Next time on Death Battle: Spider-Gwen VS Batgirl

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Sword View Post
    Next time on Death Battle: Spider-Gwen VS Batgirl
    I will consume any media involving Spider-Gwen happily and with zeal.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Sword View Post
    Next time on Death Battle: Spider-Gwen VS Batgirl
    Which would be a monstrous stomp. The Spidey family just out right beat the bats outside of a very specific instance.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    In the past he did assemble gadgets to deal with the likes of Electro, Hydroman, and Venom before - villains that have a specific weaknesses that aren't punching or webs - usually with cheap-ish things using his MacGuyver-esque resourcefulness and limited cash on hand... but his post-Secret Wars iteration has Tony Stark-levels of tech and money in a business which was initially aimed at building and selling tech to counter and contain high tier villains.
    Confirming this.

    Remember, Spidey has gotten a huge dose of character growth (sometimes in weird directions) and his contemporary primary comic book incarnation is a far cry from the popular image of him as a student lr freelance photographer struggling to make ends meet.

    When given time and resources, Spidey figured out how to exploit every weakness of the Sinister Six and built numerous gadgets for that task. When given the tools, he's explicitly figured out stuff that would make Reed Richards proud (and occasionally deeply ashamed. Literally, they're sort of pals), a Marvel supergenius.

    Peter Parker is a genius. The only thing that kept him back was his family issues and resultant shoelace budget.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Confirming this.

    Remember, Spidey has gotten a huge dose of character growth (sometimes in weird directions) and his contemporary primary comic book incarnation is a far cry from the popular image of him as a student lr freelance photographer struggling to make ends meet.

    When given time and resources, Spidey figured out how to exploit every weakness of the Sinister Six and built numerous gadgets for that task. When given the tools, he's explicitly figured out stuff that would make Reed Richards proud (and occasionally deeply ashamed. Literally, they're sort of pals), a Marvel supergenius.

    Peter Parker is a genius. The only thing that kept him back was his family issues and resultant shoelace budget.
    Wait really.

    Frack. and I only know the movie spidermans. actual supergenius gadgeteer spiderman sounds awesome.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Wait really.

    Frack. and I only know the movie spidermans. actual supergenius gadgeteer spiderman sounds awesome.
    Yeah im not a huge comic reader myself but iirc peter was considered, if not a tony stark or reed richards, certainly intelligent enough to discuss science matters with them during the civil war era. So yeah, genius, not super genius.
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Wait really.

    Frack. and I only know the movie spidermans. actual supergenius gadgeteer spiderman sounds awesome.
    Don't get your hopes up. Outside of a few panels referencing different Spidey suits that he's built they never really come up. I can't even think of a single time he ever even used any of them, and I've read pretty much every issue. It's entirely "wow Pete, you sure are smart with all this stuff you designed! Now to never actually use it as you run around in your basic Spiderman suit that is in no way different from what you've always done."

    The Spider on his chest did glow for a little while. So I guess that's something. Oh and he had a spider car for like...one issue. That's pretty much it for tech and gadgets.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2017-11-22 at 08:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Wait really.

    Frack. and I only know the movie spidermans. actual supergenius gadgeteer spiderman sounds awesome.
    What others said, don't get your hopes up. All superheroes suffer from some form of "status quo is god", but Petey suffers particularly bad. Almost every time he gets an upgrade or development, the Devil, the writers, or both conspire to screw him over. So gadgeteer Spidey and science Petey never gets more than few issues at a time to shine.

    The new Spidey movie, Homecoming, does pay homage to Peter's gadgeteer skills in the comics, as movie Peter designed his webfluid and shooter himself with what's implied to be high-school equipment. Fancy high-school with fancy equipment, but regardless.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."


    Come and join Bleach: Turn Back the Pendulum freeform game!

    Thanks to Kasanip for my Nasumi avatar.

  29. - Top - End - #1439
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lord Raziere's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    Male2Female

    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    What others said, don't get your hopes up. All superheroes suffer from some form of "status quo is god", but Petey suffers particularly bad. Almost every time he gets an upgrade or development, the Devil, the writers, or both conspire to screw him over. So gadgeteer Spidey and science Petey never gets more than few issues at a time to shine.

    The new Spidey movie, Homecoming, does pay homage to Peter's gadgeteer skills in the comics, as movie Peter designed his webfluid and shooter himself with what's implied to be high-school equipment. Fancy high-school with fancy equipment, but regardless.
    Oh right, I forgot the Second Revelation of Comic Books: Progress Is A Lie. (The First Revelation is: Death Is A Vacation. Or An Illusion. Or Meaningless. Whichever you prefer.)

    Wait.

    A timeline of events that constantly resets itself. everyone that dies coming back to life after timelines of apocalyptic events. No one being aware of it. The timelines constantly resetting to the point of meaningless, just so that people can see what will happen this time around.

    My god. Marvel And DC are in the Undertale universe, and their writers are the determined children.
    My Fan Fiction:
    To Catch A Mew
    A Kalos based pokemon fan fic. Now up to Chapter 20!



  30. - Top - End - #1440
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    Default Re: Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    My god. Marvel And DC are in the Undertale universe, and their writers are the determined children.
    "You see Bruce Banner caught in the gamma bomb test. It fills him with radiation."

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