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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    On Tuesday I Fireballed myself to kill a bunch of stuff that crowded around me and I took zero actual health damage.

    This build is fantastic.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    On Tuesday I Fireballed myself to kill a bunch of stuff that crowded around me and I took zero actual health damage.

    This build is fantastic.
    Using AoA? I usually hate that because its hard to get resistance to fire damage as a warlock and it eats so much of your other spell.

    Not to say it can't be effective but I'd feel like my limited resources were fighting each other.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Meta's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    On Tuesday I Fireballed myself to kill a bunch of stuff that crowded around me and I took zero actual health damage.

    This build is fantastic.
    You were restrained and still made your half damage save. Pretty awesome... though maybe a bit strange from a dodging perspective.

    The enemies were vine blights, and it was a good tactical move. It's only been 2 sessions DMing for Uriel's build, but I have a few observations.

    The durability is the selling point. The damage is pretty nice, but there are a lot of ways to punish groups of relatively weak melee foes already via damage. I had another player do way more damage with a fireball than all of the Armor damage. Both 3rd level slots.

    With that in mind the build wants some combination of:

    Support, whether it be dispelling, counterspelling, disabling. The last one might be tough depending on stat array. Having this means there's a point in your durable existence and enemies may need to target you over your allies. Which brings me to:

    Stickiness. A lot of monsters are feasibly just going to walk away from the weird wizard who hurts them when they hit it. So far Uriel has gone up against fairly unintelligent monsters but the Galeb Duhr got the hint after one attack in the Darkness and just rolled away. A good OA would go a long way, even better if it slows, disables, etc. difficult terrain would solid too I think. Maybe Sentinel? This is sorta the Defender Catch 22 from 4e.

    Damage. If you do enough damage, then it's tough to be ignored.
    Szilard has all of those sweet trophies for a reason. Awesome avatar is his handiwork.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Devil

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by Eragon123 View Post
    Ok. I'm listening



    You admit my point.



    Freaking how?!

    Lets do some math.

    We have HAM and Blade ward up and the enemy is attacking us with a non magical weapon.

    They do 'Y' damage. And lets call the reduction from HAM 'R', I know this is a constant but it illustrates my point a bit more intuitively.

    Lets call the Alternative "X1" and the Raw as "X2"

    Alternative

    Y/2-R=X1
    Y=2(X1+R)

    RAW
    (Y-R)/2=X2
    Y=2X2+R

    2(X1+R)=2X2+R
    2X1+2R=2X2+R
    2X1+R=2X2
    X1+R/2=X2

    The alternative method has double the reduction from HAM as RAW does.
    But HAM does -3 damage. Ergo, every hit you take is - 3 damage. With resist up using Bidmas, HAM reduces damage by - 3. It's damage resist isn't doubled, it stays the same. Using PHB, using HAM with Resist halves the effect of Bidmas, because that rule throws a bracket in there.

    This compared to PHB rule, Bidmas is comparatively doubled, but that is only because it's halved in the first place.

    I get what you are saying: compared to the PHB rule, it appears to be doubled in effect, when thatsonly because the PHB halves the rule in the place. People would not complain resists benefit stacking with HAM as it would be in accordance with BODMAS and isn't OP (as someone who played it wrongly, can verify did not Overshadow rest of party), but as soon as you include the PHB, it would be like stating you run into 'it doubles effectiveness'.

    A company reducing the amount of biscuits in a pack by 50% write now 100% more biscuits when the release the full size pack. It doesn't change the fact that a full size pack hasn't changed in size.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    But HAM does -3 damage. Ergo, every hit you take is - 3 damage. With resist up using Bidmas, HAM reduces damage by - 3. It's damage resist isn't doubled, it stays the same. Using PHB, using HAM with Resist halves the effect of Bidmas, because that rule throws a bracket in there.

    This compared to PHB rule, Bidmas is comparatively doubled, but that is only because it's halved in the first place.

    I get what you are saying: compared to the PHB rule, it appears to be doubled in effect, when thatsonly because the PHB halves the rule in the place. People would not complain resists benefit stacking with HAM as it would be in accordance with BODMAS and isn't OP (as someone who played it wrongly, can verify did not Overshadow rest of party), but as soon as you include the PHB, it would be like stating you run into 'it doubles effectiveness'.

    A company reducing the amount of biscuits in a pack by 50% write now 100% more biscuits when the release the full size pack. It doesn't change the fact that a full size pack hasn't changed in size.
    Ah ok. Yeah I wish PHB followed BODMAS we are saying the same thing but since I was using the PHB I was seeing it as double (even though it is only 1.5, math is weird sometimes but regardless) and you saw me as halving the effectiveness. Though I will admit either way isn't too broken for a number as small as 3.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Yeah I think people trying to maximize the damage you deal with the Armor are doing it wrong.

    Your real strength is you're a Wizard with as much HP as a Barbarian, which just means you're a Wizard that gets to be a Wizard with impunity.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by Meta View Post
    Stickiness. A lot of monsters are feasibly just going to walk away from the weird wizard who hurts them when they hit it. So far Uriel has gone up against fairly unintelligent monsters but the Galeb Duhr got the hint after one attack in the Darkness and just rolled away. A good OA would go a long way, even better if it slows, disables, etc. difficult terrain would solid too I think. Maybe Sentinel? This is sorta the Defender Catch 22 from 4e.

    Damage. If you do enough damage, then it's tough to be ignored.
    Also if you have another front liner and the discouraged enemies don't just peel off to attack the squishes, it can feel awesome to wade into battle and have no one able to summon the courage to fight you.

    I'm playing a Fey-Blade lock with an AoA effective build so when an archer or other ranged opponent does hit me, I use misty escape to get to them and then take out those who fight like cowards. then help mop up the rest of the melee.

    Generally. Granted not every battle is the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Yeah I think people trying to maximize the damage you deal with the Armor are doing it wrong.

    Your real strength is you're a Wizard with as much HP as a Barbarian, which just means you're a Wizard that gets to be a Wizard with impunity.
    Eh, depends. It can feel awesome to practically be ignored and just blast from then on. But it has been effective for me to use AoA as my main source of damage.
    Last edited by Eragon123; 2017-11-02 at 01:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by Meta View Post
    You were restrained and still made your half damage save. Pretty awesome... though maybe a bit strange from a dodging perspective.

    The enemies were vine blights, and it was a good tactical move. It's only been 2 sessions DMing for Uriel's build, but I have a few observations.

    The durability is the selling point. The damage is pretty nice, but there are a lot of ways to punish groups of relatively weak melee foes already via damage. I had another player do way more damage with a fireball than all of the Armor damage. Both 3rd level slots.

    With that in mind the build wants some combination of:

    Support, whether it be dispelling, counterspelling, disabling. The last one might be tough depending on stat array. Having this means there's a point in your durable existence and enemies may need to target you over your allies. Which brings me to:

    Stickiness. A lot of monsters are feasibly just going to walk away from the weird wizard who hurts them when they hit it. So far Uriel has gone up against fairly unintelligent monsters but the Galeb Duhr got the hint after one attack in the Darkness and just rolled away. A good OA would go a long way, even better if it slows, disables, etc. difficult terrain would solid too I think. Maybe Sentinel? This is sorta the Defender Catch 22 from 4e.

    Damage. If you do enough damage, then it's tough to be ignored.
    Warcaster with Booming Blade, for that extra 2d8 damage if they decide to run away goes a long way toward making them decide to stick it out. Or rather, goes a long way to making their friends decide to stick it out, since it often is fatal to the one that finds out you can do it.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Yeah I think people trying to maximize the damage you deal with the Armor are doing it wrong.

    Your real strength is you're a Wizard with as much HP as a Barbarian, which just means you're a Wizard that gets to be a Wizard with impunity.
    I believe the opposite. You have better uses for spell slots than trying to stay alive kill the thing attacking you first.

  10. - Top - End - #130

    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    I believe the opposite. You have better uses for spell slots than trying to stay alive kill the thing attacking you first.
    Depending on how many attacks the thing trying to kill you has, the high level AoA could easily kill it faster than you spending more spells on offense.

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by Eragon123 View Post
    Using AoA? I usually hate that because its hard to get resistance to fire damage as a warlock and it eats so much of your other spell.
    Being a Tiefling helps.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    Depending on how many attacks the thing trying to kill you has, the high level AoA could easily kill it faster than you spending more spells on offense.
    Particulalry when stacked with resistance and HAM.

    16 damage hit v HAM/Resist = 6 damage per hit. Vs a 5th level AoA it triggers AoA 5 times for 125 damage (stopping 25 in return).

    10 damage hits v HAM/Resist = 3 damage per hit. Vs a 5th level AoA it triggers AoA 9 times for 225 damage (stopping 25 in return).

    Your DM will also tend to try and avoid hitting you after a swing or two. It has fantastic deterrent value if nothing else.

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    For those who are wondering whether the damage resistance from Rage occurs before or after the 3-point reduction from Heavy Armour Master:-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rage
    While raging, you gain the following benefits if you arenít wearing heavy armor
    Quote Originally Posted by Heavy Armour Master
    While you are wearing heavy armor, bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage that you take from non magical weapons is reduced by 3
    Can anyone spot the two (2) slight flaws in this plan?

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by Arial Black View Post
    For those who are wondering whether the damage resistance from Rage occurs before or after the 3-point reduction from Heavy Armour Master:-





    Can anyone spot the two (2) slight flaws in this plan?
    We're using Warding Bond to obtain resistance.

    Also; technically Bear totem resistance works in Heavy armor.

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    I believe the opposite. You have better uses for spell slots than trying to stay alive kill the thing attacking you first.
    Yeah see when you can keep it up all the time thanks to Arcane Ward you get much better mileage out of it.

    Armor of Agathys that lasts for 3 encounters does more damage overall than a Fireball spell, for instance. Even if every enemy only hits you one time.

    Taking unnecessary levels in Barbarian just to rage seems really dumb IMO. Especially when Stoneskin exists or you can just be Blade Warding half of the time anyway.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2017-11-03 at 08:23 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Yeah see when you can keep it up all the time thanks to Arcane Ward you get much better mileage out of it.

    Armor of Agathys that lasts for 3 encounters does more damage overall than a Fireball spell, for instance. Even if every enemy only hits you one time.

    Taking unnecessary levels in Barbarian just to rage seems really dumb IMO. Especially when Stoneskin exists or you can just be Blade Warding half of the time anyway.
    Arcane Ward is specifically not you though, so you don't deal damage with AoA.

  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Quoxis's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Taking unnecessary levels in Barbarian just to rage seems really dumb IMO. Especially when Stoneskin exists or you can just be Blade Warding half of the time anyway.
    In defense of the barblock:

    You don't take barbarian for resistance.
    You take barbarian to hit the opponent, do extra damage AND get resistance in case the opponent dares to attack back.

    Also: Stoneskin is a 4th level spell and on neither of the warlock subclasses' spell list, so you need to take at least 7 levels of another class to get it... A seven level dip is what i'd consider dumb, but that might be just me. Of course you can have a teammate cast it on you, but they might have better uses for their concentration because things like haste still exist.
    Blade ward takes an action, so you don't do any damage on your turn and hope your opponent will attack you so you can do any damage at all - the only use i can see here is casting it, then running away to tempt them into opportunity attacking you (not saying that's a bad thing, but it's alame tactic to fall back on in the worst case scenario, not exactly a go-to strategy).

    Ragelock takes only a one-level dip, can stay at low-ish dex while investing into con for additional hp and ac, attack on their turn with their (pact) greataxe and deal mean damage to anything still standing after that. Imo that's a nifty barbarian-lite, but with spellcasting outside of combat (or as soon as the rage ends).
    "Can i touch myself before talking to that guy?"
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  18. - Top - End - #138
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Arcane Ward is specifically not you though, so you don't deal damage with AoA.
    Sure you do. You're like the only person with that interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quoxis View Post
    In defense of the barblock:

    You don't take barbarian for resistance.
    You take barbarian to hit the opponent, do extra damage AND get resistance in case the opponent dares to attack back.

    Also: Stoneskin is a 4th level spell and on neither of the warlock subclasses' spell list, so you need to take at least 7 levels of another class to get it... A seven level dip is what i'd consider dumb, but that might be just me. Of course you can have a teammate cast it on you, but they might have better uses for their concentration because things like haste still exist.
    Blade ward takes an action, so you don't do any damage on your turn and hope your opponent will attack you so you can do any damage at all - the only use i can see here is casting it, then running away to tempt them into opportunity attacking you (not saying that's a bad thing, but it's alame tactic to fall back on in the worst case scenario, not exactly a go-to strategy).

    Ragelock takes only a one-level dip, can stay at low-ish dex while investing into con for additional hp and ac, attack on their turn with their (pact) greataxe and deal mean damage to anything still standing after that. Imo that's a nifty barbarian-lite, but with spellcasting outside of combat (or as soon as the rage ends).
    But why would you want to be a Warlock when you can be a better caster instead (A Wizard).

    It's not a 7 level dip. It's a 2 level dip. For Warlock.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2017-11-03 at 10:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Sure you do. You're like the only person with that interpretation..
    Given that the interpretation is that you don't take Concentration because it hits something else, no, I'm not.

  20. - Top - End - #140
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    You don't make a concentration check because you don't take damage. If damage spills over past the Ward, you have to make a concentration check even though you weren't even "hit" by your interpretation of things.

    Armor of Agathys says when you're hit by a melee attack, not when you take damage.

    It's the consistent interpretation.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2017-11-03 at 01:28 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    But why would you want to be a Warlock when you can be a better caster instead (A Wizard).

    It's not a 7 level dip. It's a 2 level dip. For Warlock.
    In that case, i was falsely assuming you were talking about a warlock build. In your comment you mentioned warlocks taking a level of barbarian, so i went ahead and discussed the benefit of a barb dip for a warlock over a dip offering stoneskin for the same warlock. If you invert this - a barbarian with a level of warlock - it's dumb, that's right, but that doesn't make the barb 1/warlock X build any more ineffective (i'd even argue it's better as it comes online at essentially level 2, other than your 8th level stoneskin build).

    "Why would you want to be a warlock when you can be a wizard" is such an idiotic question that i'm tempted not to answer at all. First of all, it's a roleplaying game, second, the warlock gets spells the wizard doesn't, third, the warlock has more consistent damage with agonizing eldritch blasts and is less dependent on spell slots as it's a cantrip, third, invocations, fourth, why would anyone be any class other than a wizard then, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened
    You don't make a concentration check because you don't take damage. If damage spills over past the Ward, you have to make a concentration check even though you weren't even "hit" by your interpretation of things.

    Armor of Agathys says when you're hit by a melee attack, not when you take damage.

    It's the consistent interpretation.
    After some research, you seem to be right on that one.

    To quote the phb: "Whenever you take damage, the ward takes the damage instead. If this damage reduces the ward to 0 hit points, you take any remaining damage"; "To make an attack roll, roll a d20 and add the appropriate modifiers. If the total of the roll plus modifiers equals or exceeds the targetís Armor Class (AC), the attack hits"; "Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration."

    The ward explicitely doesn't mention that the warded creature doesn't get hit, it only absorbs the damage - by RAW, the caster is still hit when the attacker rolls higher than the caster's AC.
    Armor of Agathys mentions getting hit in melee. By RAW, as long as you get hit with a melee attack the attacker takes damage, which means if i'm not overreading something, AoA works even if it's not getting damaged as with abjurer's ward. Wow.
    "Can i touch myself before talking to that guy?"
    "..."
    "I mean can i cast a touch spell on myself..."
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  22. - Top - End - #142
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quoxis View Post
    "Why would you want to be a warlock when you can be a wizard" is such an idiotic question that i'm tempted not to answer at all. First of all, it's a roleplaying game, second, the warlock gets spells the wizard doesn't, third, the warlock has more consistent damage with agonizing eldritch blasts and is less dependent on spell slots as it's a cantrip, third, invocations, fourth, why would anyone be any class other than a wizard then, and so on.
    I was mostly just making a tongue in cheek statement. However, there's very little the Warlock gets past level 3 or so that I find particularly appealing. I personally don't think I'd ever play a straight Warlock over a Sorcerer that has a few levels in Warlock.

    After some research, you seem to be right on that one.

    To quote the phb: "Whenever you take damage, the ward takes the damage instead. If this damage reduces the ward to 0 hit points, you take any remaining damage"; "To make an attack roll, roll a d20 and add the appropriate modifiers. If the total of the roll plus modifiers equals or exceeds the targetís Armor Class (AC), the attack hits"; "Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration."

    The ward explicitely doesn't mention that the warded creature doesn't get hit, it only absorbs the damage - by RAW, the caster is still hit when the attacker rolls higher than the caster's AC.
    Armor of Agathys mentions getting hit in melee. By RAW, as long as you get hit with a melee attack the attacker takes damage, which means if i'm not overreading something, AoA works even if it's not getting damaged as with abjurer's ward. Wow.
    I know right? It's great.

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    I am currently playing a lock1/wiz4, which I plan to proceed in wiz for the coming time. once I get there, I'll take contingency and probably fire shield. Vuman with res(CON).
    I play it mostly as an enabler/disabler with soft and hard control. The AoA makes me less appealing to be attacked while I bounce around making sure my party members can do what they do. Cantrips I use shocking grasp and Ray of frost, and spells are now mostly shield and absorb elements, but also include things like Tasha's hideous laughter and later on hypnotic pattern, counterspells and dispel.
    Its a blast, and I mostly get hit once or twice by a creature before they go for others. So I deal some damage with it, and then they try to go for my allies I make sure my board and ranged fighter can get away ot an enemy can't get to them with reduced speed.
    Extended Signature with Homebrew for 5e

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    I know this post has been dead for a while but I enjoyed the thought experiment of making a build around maximizing a single spell.

    If the goal of OP is to maximize Armor of Agathys I'm surprised no one has mentioned he bladesinger's Song of Defense feature. take warlock 1/bladesinger 10/bear totem barb 3/probably bladesinger x. You armor of agathys and fire shield up, rage and start swinging at things recklessly like a barb. Enemies hit you with advantage, you reduce the damage with spell slots to the point where you take as little damage as possible while still taking some to activate AoA and Fire Shield. This is made easier by Barb resistances. Takes a while to come online and MAD as heck but you could even add on 2 levels of paladin for smites as you have the stats to do so and also have the spell slots.

    I figure this is the best way to maximize AoA. May not be an optimal build but could be fun to play regardless.

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2019-06-10 at 12:35 PM.
    Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.

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    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys

    Find werebear or tiger, (or others if you don't mind ending up evil) make them bite you, obtain immunity to non-magical B/P/S.

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