fixing tier issues with gestalting

[Troacctid]

Then UMD is garbage and you shouldn't waste your time on it, so being a Warlock 12 offers basically nothing aside from a pathetic blast and a few invocations. And you definitely aren't "Tier 1" because of your ability to light money on fire to cast spells with lower DC at lower Caster levels when you know exactly what spell you will need a month in advance, because everyone can do that.

So your argument is that Warlock is bad because the only things it offers are the things it offers, and UMD is garbage because all it does is give you access to things that anyone with UMD can access?

[nedz]

You're locked into Human-only, and you're locked into Eberron, and you're two levels too late, and "oh also" 2 + 4 = 6 ... so what's your problem in specific?

Ah, for some reason I though that Warlock was T3, my bad.

Still I could go something like
Warlock 12 / Chameleon 2 // Sorcerer 12 / (T3) 2

Whereas you have eaten several levels of one side for the same trick.

[Beheld]

So your argument is that Warlock is bad because the only things it offers are the things it offers, and UMD is garbage because all it does is give you access to things that anyone with UMD can access?

I'm saying that having UMD as a class skill doesn't magically turn you into a real character, and that if it did, Experts would also be Tier 1.

The things Warlock offers are not Tier 1. UMD doesn't synergize with the things Warlock offers, and also isn't Tier 1.

No combination of Warlock + UMD + Item crafting that still costs money and XP is ever going to make a Warlock ever in the same universe as a Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer. So Binder//Warlock gestalt at level 12 doesn't magically become equivalent to a Wizard, just like Warlock 12/Chameleon 2 doesn't make a character comparable to a Wizard. Because being able to do the same thing the Wizard already does, but not level appropriately, and have to know a month in advance you wanted to do it, and having to spend money and XP to do it is never going to be even close to the same thing as a Wizard.

[Troacctid]

Oh, so what you really meant was that anything below T1 is garbage? Because you did say UMD is garbage, and now you've clarified that your reason behind this is that it's not as good as being T1.

[Beheld]

Oh, so what you really meant was that anything below T1 is garbage? Because you did say UMD is garbage, and now you've clarified that your reason behind this is that it's not as good as being T1.

{Scrubbed}

Someone claimed Binder//Warlock was Tier I, so of necessity my response to that was primarily based on responding to that.

Yes, UMD is also garbage, because anyone who is using it, by definition, could have written "Wizard X" on their character sheet if they wanted to do nothing but cast spells.

Now I also specified that if, for example, you are a rogue, and UMDing Gravestrike drastically helps you in a way it wouldn't help a Wizard, then that's not garbage. But I also pointed out that there is no equivalent to that for Warlocks. Warlocks get literally nothing out of UMD they wouldn't have gotten for free on a days notice, instead of costing money on a months notice, by writing Wizard on their character sheet.

If you want to be a Warlock, be a Warlock, but if you want to be a Wizard, be a Wizard, don't take levels in some other class and then put ranks into UMD so you can whip out a staff Finger of Death.

[Nifft]

Ah, for some reason I though that Warlock was T3, my bad.

Maybe it is on some lists.

Still I could go something like
Warlock 12 / Chameleon 2 // Sorcerer 12 / (T3) 2

Whereas you have eaten several levels of one side for the same trick.

... plus a bunch of other tricks, most of which are more obvious, like having Naberious + Hellfire Warlock levels instead of Chameleon levels.

There's nothing wrong with the Chameleon trick -- but you're stuck with those two Chameleon levels forever, while the Binder version can just swap to a different Vestige if you don't need the crafting feat that day.

But it's not actually better than the specific trick that I was talking about. It's just another way to accomplish the same thing, except later and with a different degree of commitment.

(IMHO it'd be plenty of fun to play a Warlock 12+ // xx 5 / Chameleon 7+. But that's not the character that I'm currently talking about.)

[nedz]

... plus a bunch of other tricks, most of which are more obvious, like having Naberious + Hellfire Warlock levels instead of Chameleon levels.

There's nothing wrong with the Chameleon trick -- but you're stuck with those two Chameleon levels forever, while the Binder version can just swap to a different Vestige if you don't need the crafting feat that day.

But it's not actually better than the specific trick that I was talking about. It's just another way to accomplish the same thing, except later and with a different degree of commitment.

(IMHO it'd be plenty of fun to play a Warlock 12+ // xx 5 / Chameleon 7+. But that's not the character that I'm currently talking about.)

True - you pays your xp and you takes your levels.

Someone claimed Binder//Warlock was Tier I, so of necessity my response to that was primarily based on responding to that.

No we are talking about Imbue Item + Astaroth or Imbue Item + Chameleon's Bonus feat

Tier 1 is about being able to meet any challenge with preparation which you can do with either of the above.

[Beheld]

No we are talking about Imbue Item + Astaroth or Imbue Item + Chameleon's Bonus feat

Tier 1 is about being able to meet any challenge with preparation which you can do with either of the above.

Well, no, you can't. Even if that was all Tier one was about, you still don't even have that (barring a specific absurd reading or wealth rules, or the DM allowing you to cast Caster level 112 Holy Words at level 12).

Being able to craft items that way doesn't allow you to know what you are facing ahead of time, and therefore doesn't allow you to actually customize yourself to opposition. Nor does being able to pull out a bunch of low level effects at relatively low cost allow you to beat challenges. Nor does being really bad at level appropriate things, or spending tons of money to do it about as well as the Sorcerer look very impressive at all. These are not things that beat level appropriate challenges.

[nedz]

Well, no, you can't. Even if that was all Tier one was about, you still don't even have that (barring a specific absurd reading or wealth rules, or the DM allowing you to cast Caster level 112 Holy Words at level 12).

Being able to craft items that way doesn't allow you to know what you are facing ahead of time, and therefore doesn't allow you to actually customize yourself to opposition. Nor does being able to pull out a bunch of low level effects at relatively low cost allow you to beat challenges. Nor does being really bad at level appropriate things, or spending tons of money to do it about as well as the Sorcerer look very impressive at all. These are not things that beat level appropriate challenges.

Where did Caster level 112 come from ?

{Scrubbed}

If I need to cast a certain spell then I can make a scroll of it.
If a Wizard needs to cast a certain spell then he either knows it, or has to buy or research it, which can cost more.

If I want to know what I'm facing then I need to do some reconnaissance, information gathering or divination. But preparation really means being able to acquire to tools which you are likely to need to solve a variety of problems — like having silver weapons/whatever.

As to cash, well I can sell my stuff for twice what it costs me to make - so over time I should be able to keep up.

Now an artificer does this better, for various reasons, but the example class features give you a similar ability.

I would also argue that the two combos we were discussing are at the lower end of Tier 1, but they still allow me to solve any issue - if I have prepared for it.

[Beheld]

Where did Caster level 112 come from ?

It's a CL you can get on UMD, but being able to break the skill system, and replace character level with skill ranks -X is pretty meaningless. DMs don't let you cast Holy Word at the CL needed to kill gods from a staff, because some rules are dumb. Just like they don't let Dread Necro's Planar Bind 49 Glabrezu and use them instead of adventuring. Planar Binding is not a relevant measure of Dread Necro strength, and likewise staff CL cheese is not a relevant measure of Expert class strength.

If I need to cast a certain spell then I can make a scroll of it.
If a Wizard needs to cast a certain spell then he either knows it, or has to buy or research it, which can cost more.

A Wizard can buy every not level 1 spell for cheaper than you can make it. If you need a certain spell, you can spend actual gold and XP and at least a day to get that scroll, good for you I guess, but who cares, because now you have a one shot use of spell that often isn't even helpful because of it's inferior CL. And if you needed that spell and didn't have 8 hours notice, well then tough luck, you don't have it.

If I want to know what I'm facing then I need to do some reconnaissance, information gathering or divination. But preparation really means being able to acquire to tools which you are likely to need to solve a variety of problems — like having silver weapons/whatever.

So you can blow a bunch of money and XP in order to cast divinations and do reconnaissance, and then you can spend a month crafting items to deal with the situation, and then you can find out that things change in a month, and that most of your preparation is wasted. Not exactly the height of usefulness. Maybe you should have been any class at all that is capable of dealing with level appropriate challenges, so that you could have gone in the next day before everything changed, and actually accomplished something.

As to cash, well I can sell my stuff for twice what it costs me to make - so over time I should be able to keep up.

No you can't, you can sell it for exactly the same amount of gold you spent on it, but not get the XP back. So in other words, sucks to be you. But sure keep telling us about how if the DM just lets you have infinite gold you can totally beat challenges by spending months crafting the appropriate gear. On the other hand, if the DM let's you have infinite gold, why not just be a "Tier 1" Dread Necromancer who Planar Binds an Efferti, wishes for a Ring of Infinite Wishes at CL 90000 and a Belt of Magnificence +9000000, and then wins every challenge in the game by using a Wish spell every round and having broken numbers? I mean, if you can be Tier 1 with infinite money, then surely it matters that he can be even more tier 1 with his much better method of infinite money?

Or you know, if your DM doesn't let Dread Necro's have infinite wealth, he won't let you either, and if he does, you are just a Commoner who waits until level 12 to get the same thing commoners get at level 5 when they buy their first Candle of Invocation.

[nedz]

It's a CL you can get on UMD, but being able to break the skill system, and replace character level with skill ranks -X is pretty meaningless. DMs don't let you cast Holy Word at the CL needed to kill gods from a staff, because some rules are dumb. Just like they don't let Dread Necro's Planar Bind 49 Glabrezu and use them instead of adventuring. Planar Binding is not a relevant measure of Dread Necro strength, and likewise staff CL cheese is not a relevant measure of Expert class strength.

Strawman

A Wizard can buy every not level 1 spell for cheaper than you can make it. If you need a certain spell, you can spend actual gold and XP and at least a day to get that scroll, good for you I guess, but who cares, because now you have a one shot use of spell that often isn't even helpful because of it's inferior CL. And if you needed that spell and didn't have 8 hours notice, well then tough luck, you don't have it.

I have class features which will handle most situations, I only need items for certain situations. I can make any item.

So you can blow a bunch of money and XP in order to cast divinations and do reconnaissance, and then you can spend a month crafting items to deal with the situation, and then you can find out that things change in a month, and that most of your preparation is wasted. Not exactly the height of usefulness. Maybe you should have been any class at all that is capable of dealing with level appropriate challenges, so that you could have gone in the next day before everything changed, and actually accomplished something.

{Scrubbed}

No you can't, you can sell it for exactly the same amount of gold you spent on it, but not get the XP back. So in other words, sucks to be you. But sure keep telling us about how if the DM just lets you have infinite gold you can totally beat challenges by spending months crafting the appropriate gear. On the other hand, if the DM let's you have infinite gold, why not just be a "Tier 1" Dread Necromancer who Planar Binds an Efferti, wishes for a Ring of Infinite Wishes at CL 90000 and a Belt of Magnificence +9000000, and then wins every challenge in the game by using a Wish spell every round and having broken numbers? I mean, if you can be Tier 1 with infinite money, then surely it matters that he can be even more tier 1 with his much better method of infinite money?

Wrong on the first point

Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price.

XP is a river and your mention of infinite wealth is another strawman.

Or you know, if your DM doesn't let Dread Necro's have infinite wealth, he won't let you either, and if he does, you are just a Commoner who waits until level 12 to get the same thing commoners get at level 5 when they buy their first Candle of Invocation.

Another Strawman.

[Beheld]

Strawman[High CL]

No, it's something that I never said was your argument and made a point to forestall anyone bringing it up. Before whining about strawman, maybe you could point to someone claiming something is your argument?

I have class features which will handle most situations, I only need items for certain situations. I can make any item.

Well, since you are a warlock, those situations are "everything" and also "everything" because you get no level appropriate non-combat abilities and no level appropriate combat abilities (except a brief period where you get EBT at will, before that falls off in a couple levels).

Did you even read what I typed ?

Yes, you said "[I'm going to cast Divinations and do reconnaissance to know what I'm facing and then craft my items to match it (even though my class can't cast Divinations).]"

So you are going to to craft items to cast Divination spells, then do reconnaissance, then start crafting items to face the encounter, and the result is... you have to craft for a month because crafting times exist, and then you end up with the situation changing.

You didn't explain how you were going to cast Divinations, because like all Schroedingers UMD claims vagueness is your first line of defense. You didn't explain how you are going to do reconnaissance, because vagueness is your first line of defense, you didn't explain how you are going to prepare for encounters and situations, because vagueness is your first line of defense. But come on, you are sitting here extolling the virtues of a UMD warlock, obviously the solution to every problem is craft items, because you sure aren't getting anything from the Warlock class.

If you want to explain how anything you said is in any way a contradiction to anything I said, go right ahead.

XP is a river and your mention of infinite wealth is another strawman.[infinite wealth]

Another Strawman.[infinite wealth]

No, those are just things you wish weren't true. If you insist that you can sell and item for twice what it costs to make it, then you have infinite wealth. If your DM allows you to have infinite wealth, he will allow anyone to have infinite wealth, and any class that wants it can get it before level 12, and use their infinite wealth to buy everything that you craft. If your argument relies on the claim that your character is good because he has infinite wealth and infinite consumables, then everyone else can do that to, and all balance instantly collapses into a singularity black hole of Staves and +30 UMD items at level 5, or +90000 Belt's of Magnificence.

If you want to make an argument that doesn't rely on your character having infinite wealth, go right ahead.

Also, as a brief note: XP is a river is a thing that was almost true when it was first said, and then people who didn't understand it (like you) just said it whenever the mention of XP costs comes up. Yes, spending XP to get gold and then facing weaker challenges than characters with the same XP, and getting more XP for them than character of the same gold exists, but you don't instantly get the XP back. It's a great reason to set an entire level of XP on fire in order to double your WBL in permanent items you get to keep, and then just catch back up. But if you make consumables, then once they are gone, the XP you paid stops making you stronger than another character with the same level and starts making you weaker than a character of the same level and also a lower level than you could have been. And if your only possible solution to all level appropriate problems is consumable items, then you can never catch back up in the first place, because you are always dropping back at least as fast as you move forward with more XP costs.

XP costs are a dumb mechanic because they can be used to make characters that are just objectively more powerful than other characters of their level, but if you are making consumable items and then burning them hand over fist, you aren't doing that, you are just buying suck later at the cost of effectiveness now, but since the effectiveness you are buying is "not even as good as a Wizard" and the exchange rate is really bad, you are just buying way too much suck later.

[nedz]

No, it's something that I never said was your argument and made a point to forestall anyone bringing it up. Before whining about strawman, maybe you could point to someone claiming something is your argument?

All of your posts about CL 112 are strawman arguements.

Well, since you are a warlock, those situations are "everything" and also "everything" because you get no level appropriate non-combat abilities and no level appropriate combat abilities (except a brief period where you get EBT at will, before that falls off in a couple levels).

This doesn't even make sense ?

Yes, you said "[I'm going to cast Divinations and do reconnaissance to know what I'm facing and then craft my items to match it (even though my class can't cast Divinations)."

No I didn't. I posted

If I want to know what I'm facing then I need to do some reconnaissance, information gathering or divination. But preparation really means being able to acquire to tools which you are likely to need to solve a variety of problems — like having silver weapons/whatever.

The second sentence is the important one clearly, though Warlocks can be very good at infiltration and information gathering. Divination is more difficult, and that would require cra

So you are going to to craft items to cast Divination spells, then do reconnaissance, then start crafting items to face the encounter, and the result is... you have to craft for a month because crafting times exist, and then you end up with the situation changing.

Strawman - see above.

You didn't explain how you were going to cast Divinations, because like all Schroedingers UMD claims vagueness is your first line of defense. You didn't explain how you are going to do reconnaissance, because vagueness is your first line of defense, you didn't explain how you are going to prepare for encounters and situations, because vagueness is your first line of defense. But come on, you are sitting here extolling the virtues of a UMD warlock, obviously the solution to every problem is craft items, because you sure aren't getting anything from the Warlock class.

Strawman - see above.

No, those are just things you wish weren't true. If you insist that you can sell and item for twice what it costs to make it, then you have infinite wealth. If your DM allows you to have infinite wealth, he will allow anyone to have infinite wealth, and any class that wants it can get it before level 12, and use their infinite wealth to buy everything that you craft. If your argument relies on the claim that your character is good because he has infinite wealth and infinite consumables, then everyone else can do that to, and all balance instantly collapses into a singularity black hole of Staves and +30 UMD items at level 5, or +90000 Belt's of Magnificence.

The resource limitation is downtime not gold. With infinite downtime I get infinite gold, but that isn't a thing and I never claimed it was nor was I aiming for infinite wealth. This infinite wealth thing is a strawman of your invention.

Also, as a brief note: XP is a river is a thing that was almost true when it was first said, and then people who didn't understand it (like you) just said it whenever the mention of XP costs comes up. Yes, spending XP to get gold and then facing weaker challenges than characters with the same XP, and getting more XP for them than character of the same gold exists, but you don't instantly get the XP back. It's a great reason to set an entire level of XP on fire in order to double your WBL in permanent items you get to keep, and then just catch back up. But if you make consumables, then once they are gone, the XP you paid stops making you stronger than another character with the same level and starts making you weaker than a character of the same level and also a lower level than you could have been. And if your only possible solution to all level appropriate problems is consumable items, then you can never catch back up in the first place, because you are always dropping back at least as fast as you move forward with more XP costs.

I understand it perfectly well. You seem to be focussed on consumables and an attempt to gain double WBL which is not a point I ever claimed — hence Strawman.

If you wish me to stop complaining about Strawmen then perhaps you should avoid making such points.

[Beheld]

All of your posts about CL 112 are strawman arguements.

So you have no idea what a strawman is? I posted about how something isn't a reason for X, without claiming it was your argument at all at any point. That means it is literally impossible for that to be a strawman argument. I am made a single offhand statement to forestall talking about a specific problematic rules interaction.

Why don't you go jump into every thread where someone says anything about balance at all and then says "not counting Diplomacy, because that's stupid" and yell at them for strawmanning you about Diplomacy.

This doesn't even make sense ?

Warlocks are a bad class that cannot beat level appropriate challenges. This isn't even particularly controversial.

The second sentence is the important one clearly, though Warlocks can be very good at infiltration and information gathering. Divination is more difficult, and that would require cra

Wow, to bad you fell asleep at the keyboard mid sentence or you might have accidentally said anything at all worth saying in the next sentence. You don't have the ability to get the things you need to deal with challenges, because the thing you need to deal with challenges is custom consumables crafted for each encounter, which, once again, takes time, and requires that encounter not change in the ensuring months.

Strawman - see above.

Strawman - see above.

The resource limitation is downtime not gold. With infinite downtime I get infinite gold, but that isn't a thing and I never claimed it was nor was I aiming for infinite wealth. This infinite wealth thing is a strawman of your invention.

I understand it perfectly well. You seem to be focussed on consumables and an attempt to gain double WBL which is not a point I ever claimed — hence Strawman.

If you wish me to stop complaining about Strawmen then perhaps you should avoid making such points.

So you still don't understand what a strawman is, and you want to make perfectly clear that as long as your character is allowed to have infinite gold and no one else is allowed to use their much easier methods of getting infinite gold your character can totally compete? Sure, whatever.

On the other hand, if the DM allows my commoner to buy a candle of invocation and use that to get infinite gold and infinite consumables, but doesn't let anyone else have access to it, then my Commoner is "Tier 1" too.

Once again, any time you want to make any argument that doesn't amount to "If the DM just lets me have infinite gold I can be a real character" I'm ready to address it, but I can't do that until you make such an argument, and you still haven't.

[johnbragg]

Warlocks are a bad class that cannot beat level appropriate challenges. This isn't even particularly controversial.

Out of curiousity, Beheld, would this statement apply to
--all JaronK Tier 4 classes?
--all classes that do not get level 9 spells?

[Lans]

Out of curiousity, Beheld, would this statement apply to
--all JaronK Tier 4 classes?
--all classes that do not get level 9 spells?

Rogues have been stated to be able to beat LAC via flasks and blinking.

[Beheld]

Out of curiousity, Beheld, would this statement apply to
--all JaronK Tier 4 classes?
--all classes that do not get level 9 spells?

All classes that fail the SGT. Which classes pass and fail depends on level, Chilling Tentacles at will might allow a Warlock to pass at levels 11-12, but it might not, outside of that, the Warlock fails pretty much every level.

At sufficiently low levels Barbarians/Fighters can be expected to pass or approach passing when built well. Rogues can usually pass until about level 13-15, when they just can't. Most 9th level casters can at all levels. Favored Souls, Warmages, Healers would be my picks for probably failing a good chunk of levels.

Any build that uses some dumb cheese can probably pass at any level, Commoners with infinite gold can pass.

[johnbragg]

All classes that fail the SGT. Which classes pass and fail depends on level, Chilling Tentacles at will might allow a Warlock to pass at levels 11-12, but it might not, outside of that, the Warlock fails pretty much every level.

At sufficiently low levels Barbarians/Fighters can be expected to pass or approach passing when built well. Rogues can usually pass until about level 15, when they just can't. Most 9th level casters can at all levels. Favored Souls, Warmages, Healers would be my picks for probably failing a good chunk of levels.

Any build that uses some dumb cheese can probably pass at any level, Commoners with infinite gold can pass.

I don't have the system mastery to do it, but I've always wanted to see someone trick out a (Batman) Expert with UMD and WBL and try them against the Single Game Test.

The argument is over whether Warlock//Binder is Tier 1, which is making you sound like only Tier 1s are worth playing.

[Florian]

Out of curiousity, Beheld, would this statement apply to
--all JaronK Tier 4 classes?
--all classes that do not get level 9 spells?

The problem rather is, that LAC in a vacuum is an absolutely meaningless term. It´s a cornerstone of nothing. An Ice Devil, a Fighter 14 and a Commoner 18 have the same CR, But CR is not EL, which has to be calculated by hand for the group you´re GMing for (see DMG). So we talk talk LAC in a vacuum, we need the specific monster, the specific character and a bit of knowledge about the players.

Remember: The Tier system is about two things: 1) Versatility of a class and 2) breaking the game.

I´m a proponent of the ida that WBL and items tend to get overlooked but can level the playing field pretty much, but I do have to agree with Beheld here, that any tactic that hinges on using items to replicate a class can neither be a core concept nor come close to the replicated class in sheer efficiency.
So yes, while Warlocks can do certain things pretty well and can reacher a higher power ceiling, I would´t say that this option, open to nearly any class out there, should vacant a shift in rating.

I don't have the system mastery to do it, but I've always wanted to see someone trick out a (Batman) Expert with UMD and WBL and try them against the Single Game Test.

The argument is over whether Warlock//Binder is Tier 1, which is making you sound like only Tier 1s are worth playing.

There is no real system mastery necessary here. Pick exactly that kind of stuff that a, say, wizard prefers because it always works, so no saves, SR or anything, pack it on an item an use it.

[Beheld]

I don't have the system mastery to do it, but I've always wanted to see someone trick out a (Batman) Expert with UMD and WBL and try them against the Single Game Test.

The argument is over whether Warlock//Binder is Tier 1, which is making you sound like only Tier 1s are worth playing.

The same game has some specific things which it doesn't measure well, so for example, it undervalues characters who provide a force multiplier to the team, such as Wizards and Bards, but it also overvalues limited use abilities, like the Barbarian, Wizard, and in this case, Expert with UMD.

To have the SGT measure an Expert at all, you need to have some accounting for how wasting money forever on a challenge is not as good as beating it without money (like every other class does). Now, that can vary, technically, a Rogue who activates a wand of Golem Strike and throws acid flasks on a golem "wastes" gold, but since it comes out to 15 gold for the wand charge and 14 gold for the flasks, you can see how that character can afford to spend that much gold on every level 10 challenge and still keep competing with everyone else forever.

On the other hand, and Expert might have to umd a scroll of Ghostform, and then just, as many CL 7 charges of Orb of Fire as it takes to kill the Golem, and since the scroll alone costs 2,275gp, and the wand (while probably having charges left over for future use) costs 21,000gp, you can see how this is an entirely different universe of expenditure.

In some circumstances a wand of silent image alone may be enough, but that's extremely circumstantial. The level 15 SGT prevents that by making the encounter two CR 13s, so that he has an intelligent master giving orders, but it can also be beaten by just sticking an item you need inside his chest.

[dascarletm]

The resource limitation is downtime not gold. With infinite downtime I get infinite gold, but that isn't a thing and I never claimed it was nor was I aiming for infinite wealth. This infinite wealth thing is a strawman of your invention.

So you still don't understand what a strawman is, and you want to make perfectly clear that as long as your character is allowed to have infinite gold and no one else is allowed to use their much easier methods of getting infinite gold your character can totally compete?

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.

I'm seeing a disconnect here.
However, I'm pretty sure in the DMG it says you can only sell items for half of their base value. RAW I don't think it would work. Though if you took that feat from Eberron that cuts crafting costs in half you might be able to. I don't have access to the specific wording.

[Beheld]

I'm seeing a disconnect here.

Saying two mutually contradictory things doesn't magically allow him to accuse everyone of a strawman.

1) I have infinite consumables because I sell items for twice what they cost to make, and then use that money to make more items so I always have a staff with every spell in the game at all times.

and

2) But I'm not saying I have infinite money!

Doesn't make arguments against the first thing incorrect. If the Warlock makes items and sells them for half what the cost, and then uses that money to make more consumables such that you have an infinite supply of consumables, then sure, he does in fact have infinite money, even if he claims he doesn't.

And again, the Expert can also buy a candle of invocation and wish for a Ring of 50 Wishes, and then Wish up 49 consumable items and then save that last wish for another Ring of 50 Wishes when he runs out of consumables and be exactly like the level 12 warlock from level 5, except that he doesn't take 10 on UMD checks (Although I think there is a PrC that lets has like a one level dip that lets you take 10 in the skill, and it works on UMD, so still).

[dascarletm]

Doesn't make arguments against the first thing incorrect. If the Warlock makes items and sells them for half what the cost, and then uses that money to make more consumables such that you have an infinite supply of consumables, then sure, he does in fact have infinite money, even if he claims he doesn't.

Spoiler: Infinite

Show

While I understand what you mean when you say infinite, it isn't truly infinite. Probably just a pet-peeve/nitpick of mine, but I see infinite thrown around all willy-nilly.
Really it isn't truly infinite because there isn't an infinite lifespan/game time for the character. Even if there was, there isn't infinite time to play said game.
However this isn't particularly relevant.

I believe nedz only said, "so over time I should be able to keep up." I don't ever see a claim for infinite, just a claim that WBL could be offset partially to allow said character to keep up.

[Beheld]

I believe nedz only said, "so over time I should be able to keep up." I don't ever see a claim for infinite, just a claim that WBL could be offset partially to allow said character to keep up.

Yes, if he claims that he can use consumables without losing wealth, then for all intents and purposes, he no longer has any even theoretical limit on his wealth, and again, an Expert with one level in that skill master class can do that even better than the warlock, since the game already allows for you to create items for free in a standard action by spending consumables. (That you then immediately get back, because they are consumables and you have infinite consumables).

His argument basically boils down to "I expect the DM to let me do this thing where I spend 10k per fight on consumables, but still have the same wealth as other characters, but I expect him to ban all the other characters who can also do that same thing."

Which... Sure. If your DM doesn't ban your cheese but bans all cheese that does the exact same thing, then you character is strong and no one else's is. But that applies universally to all claims about cheese exploitation, power of classes, or anything. If the DM doesn't let Clerics cast spells, but does let Beguilers gain entry at level 1 into Rainbow Servant, then the Beguiler is "Tier 1" and the Cleric is "Tier 6" but if your argument for how you are Tier anything involves you being allowed to do the same thing other people can already do, but not letting those other people do it, then no one cares.

[Florian]

@Beheld:

Well, the whole Tier-stuff happens in a vacuum, so in a way it is fair to say that a class that revolves around crafting stuff simply has double WBL in that (nonexistent) environment. That is not dissimilar to factoring in Rings of Wizardry or Pearls of Power on other classes.

[Beheld]

@Beheld:

Well, the whole Tier-stuff happens in a vacuum, so in a way it is fair to say that a class that revolves around crafting stuff simply has double WBL in that (nonexistent) environment. That is not dissimilar to factoring in Rings of Wizardry or Pearls of Power on other classes.

Being able to expend XP to have double WBL is dumb for the reasons I have stated earlier, but even that isn't what he is talking about. He's not claiming to have double WBL, he's claiming to be able to turn any amount of gold into that same amount of gold + consumable items, such that building a staff that casts Contact Other Plane and Divination the casting Contact Other Plane 50 times, then throwing the useless stick of wood away cuts 0% into his wealth in any way.

Which like, yeah, if your DM lets you do that, and doesn't let the Expert who can do the same thing at level 5 do the same thing, then sure, you can cast CoP a bunch. But since the Expert can do the same thing, I'm not sure what Warlock is bringing to the table here.

He's basically arguing that when he plays a Warlock he makes a staff of Planar Binding and breaks the game, but his DM would never let a Dread Necromancer cast Planar Binding and break the game, and that's why Warlock is Tier 1.

[dascarletm]

Which like, yeah, if your DM lets you do that, and doesn't let the Expert who can do the same thing at level 5 do the same thing, then sure, you can cast CoP a bunch. But since the Expert can do the same thing, I'm not sure what Warlock is bringing to the table here.

How does an expert qualify for crafting feats?

[Beheld]

How does an expert qualify for crafting feats?

He doesn't need to, he can have zero crafting feats and just have all the items created from nothing. Any level 5 Character can buy a candle of invocation, call a Genie, and have him wish for two consumable items and a candle of invocation. He can do this until he has all the items the Warlock was going to craft + a Candle of Invocation for more items in the future. He can do this as many times as he wants at any time at any level and have the exact same items as the Warlock.

If it's fine for the Warlock to have all those items at all those levels, then if you should be fine for the Expert to have them. If it's not fine for the Expert to have them, then it shouldn't be fine for the Warlock to have them. It's really just that simple. Allowing X to do Y, but not allow Z to do Y is just declaring that you will cheat for X to come off better.

[Soranar]

I have some issues with this thread so I'll try to stay on topic but I'll have to digress for a second concerning the warlock's tier

level 1-5

You have a touch attack that affects everything you're likely to encounter, you can do this for as long as you want. No tier 1 class can even keep up with you at this level. Level appropriate encounters are a joke. Level inapropriate encounters can be handled through UMD

Level 6-11

Your eldritch blast is no longer damaging enough to handle every encounter, turning it into an eldritch glaive fixes that problem (effectively doubles your damage, you still hit on your secondary attack and your attacks of opportunity because it's a touch attack and you have medium BAB with a half decent DEX score)

You get permanent abilities that easily break the game at this level (flight, animate dead) which are further boosted by your UMD (desecrate, divine power)

Level 12+

You can create magic items that no other character can create except for an artificer. You can effectively cast any spell from any spell list (arcane or divine) , you can spam black tentacles which easily solves half the encounters you get and you have a way to ignore spell resistance.

If you just take 1 feat (scribe scroll or craft contingent spell) and you are literally unstoppable with enough preparation. You can easily defeat tier 1 classes of similar level.

Level 21+

You take 1 epic feat that grants you unlimited use of every level 1-8 conjuring spell, everything else can be handled by the epic magic items you can create.

This isn't some specific build or a specific strategy, this is just a simple warlock with feats that should be mandatory to the class the same way natural spell is mandatory to druids.

A warlock is more than just UMD, he is a very rewarding chassis if you just stick with it long enough. It's also one of the very few classes that can make a creature roll several saving throws per round. Eventually everyone rolls a 1, the problem is a warlock can make you roll 3-4 times per round if he's built right. He doesn't even need to concentrate on charisma to achieve that.

What are the warlock's flaws?

-lowish hitpoints
-low skillpoints
-feat starved

Just pairing it with a rogue side fixes all of that (since a rogue's special ability lets you take any feat, sneak attack combined with penetrating strike lets you handle mundane encounters more efficiently and the insane amount of skillpoints lets you handle everything else)

Or you can pair it with a Paladin of Freedom to gain defensive abilities, or a fighter for the feats /hitpoints/BAB. My point is that in every one of these pairings the dominant half is the warlock half.

As for complaining that the sorcerer is tier 2, honestly I find the sorcerer (and most tier 2 classes) are plenty strong to start with. Sorcerer only spells alone (like wings of cover. arcane fusion, wings of flurry) are definitely strong enough to keep him relevant and the kobold ritual makes a sorcerer catch up to a wizard's spellcasting.


There aren't that many combos that result in a tier 1 or 2 class though. I can only think of these of the top of my head and most of them are basically classes that are on the verge of tier 2 to begin with that get the extra edge to reach it.

Warlock + Rogue
Warlock + Binder

Factotum + Warblade (extra actions from Factotum, worthwhile actions from Warblade)
Factotum + Duskblade (see above)

Warmage + Beguiler (even with the MAD it should be tier 2)
Warmage + Dread Necromancer (no MAD, complementary abilities)
Dread Necromancer + Bard (with the requiem feat undead minions become insanely strong)

[Beheld]

Binder levels and strength (Response to Soranar):

Spoiler

Show

level 1-5

You have a touch attack that affects everything you're likely to encounter, you can do this for as long as you want. No tier 1 class can even keep up with you at this level. Level appropriate encounters are a joke. Level inapropriate encounters can be handled through UMD

You have a touch attack for garbage damage. A Druids AC does more damage than you if he literally sits in a corner and watches, Color Spray alone probably equals if not exceeds your output in this entire range, to say nothing of second and third level spells.

Level 6-11

Your eldritch blast is no longer damaging enough to handle every encounter, turning it into an eldritch glaive fixes that problem (effectively doubles your damage, you still hit on your secondary attack and your attacks of opportunity because it's a touch attack and you have medium BAB with a half decent DEX score)

You get permanent abilities that easily break the game at this level (flight, animate dead) which are further boosted by your UMD (desecrate, divine power)

You get animate dead worse than the Cleric (apparently you are going to spend money for desecrate) after the cleric, and you had to spend any resources at all. If you really abuse Animate Dead, you can replace your worthless warlock with a pile of skeletons, and that's really the height of what you can accomplish.

If you are a d6 HD light armor class going into melee with Eldritch Glaive, then you suffer all the flaws of a melee rogue (need full attacks, squishy but in melee range, melee range, so you can't even attack half the enemies) if you shoot lazers from afar, you do crap damage (still). Flight doesn't break the game.

Level 12+

You can create magic items that no other character can create except for an artificer. You can effectively cast any spell from any spell list (arcane or divine) , you can spam black tentacles which easily solves half the encounters you get and you have a way to ignore spell resistance.

If you just take 1 feat (scribe scroll or craft contingent spell) and you are literally unstoppable with enough preparation. You can easily defeat tier 1 classes of similar level.

As I have gone over, spending all your money and XP to wish you were a Wizard is super unimpressive on literally every possible level. Black Tentacles might be enough to make your character not terrible, but it might not (Monsters have grapple modifiers that destroy chilling tentacles, or teleport, or they are ambush monsters, or FoM, or they just laugh it on home while flying because you can't summon EBT in the air, or multiples of those).

Level 21+

You take 1 epic feat that grants you unlimited use of every level 1-8 conjuring spell, everything else can be handled by the epic magic items you can create.

This isn't some specific build or a specific strategy, this is just a simple warlock with feats that should be mandatory to the class the same way natural spell is mandatory to druids.

a) This is the most important response, epic play is meaningless, it doesn't even function.
b) A single epic feat also gives everyone all your abilities and all the abilities in the game, no one cares that you can duplicate conjuring spells of levels 1-8.

A warlock is more than just UMD, he is a very rewarding chassis if you just stick with it long enough. It's also one of the very few classes that can make a creature roll several saving throws per round. Eventually everyone rolls a 1, the problem is a warlock can make you roll 3-4 times per round if he's built right. He doesn't even need to concentrate on charisma to achieve that.

"one of the very few classes that can make a creature roll multiple saves per round" another is the monk, another is every casting class. The Warlock is a lot more like the former than the latter. If you think the Warlock can go even on SGTs I'll happily run them for you.