fixing tier issues with gestalting

[Troacctid]

If you think the Warlock can go even on SGTs I'll happily run them for you.

SGT is strange for a Warlock because you build differently if you're expecting to be a solo character. I normally build Warlocks for support and utility and count on the other party members to provide the muscle. If I were going solo, though, I'd put a lot more emphasis on avoiding fights entirely, because a battlefield controller and backup/supplemental damage-dealer is not going to fare well on his own in combat. Either that or Charm people left and right until you're not solo anymore, which is also viable.

[Lans]

Binder levels and strength (Response to Soranar):

You have a touch attack for garbage damage. A Druids AC does more damage than you if he literally sits in a corner and watches, Color Spray alone probably equals if not exceeds your output in this entire range, to say nothing of second and third level spells.

Mortalbane, a feat to be psionic, and a flaw to get psionic shot will net you a 6d6 touch attack at first level.

[Florian]

Mortalbane, a feat to be psionic, and a flaw to get psionic shot will net you a 6d6 touch attack at first level.

And nearly every other class can pull that of, so it is not unique to the Binder class at all.

[Lans]

And nearly every other class can pull that of, so it is not unique to the Binder class at all.

They were talking about the warlock, and I'm not sure how most classes get a touch attack spell like ability

[Beheld]

Mortalbane, a feat to be psionic, and a flaw to get psionic shot will net you a 6d6 touch attack at first level.

Except even after you use a 3.0 feat and three other feats on your eldritch blast at level 1, making you a human with two flaws, you still can only do that damage 5 times a day, you have to restore your psionic focus after every shot, and it only applies to living non-outsiders.

As compared to an Illumian Wizard 1 who can just do 9d6 damage reflex half at will, or summon a Large Elemental at will.

If you want to talk about silly level 1 builds that stop being good later, but are broken at level 1, you still aren't even in the same timezone as the Wizard.

[Lans]

Except even after you use a 3.0 feat and three other feats on your eldritch blast at level 1, making you a human with two flaws, you still can only do that damage 5 times a day, you have to restore your psionic focus after every shot, and it only applies to living non-outsiders.

As compared to an Illumian Wizard 1 who can just do 9d6 damage reflex half at will, or summon a Large Elemental at will.

If you want to talk about silly level 1 builds that stop being good later, but are broken at level 1, you still aren't even in the same timezone as the Wizard.

Luckily, I wasn't trying to compete with the wizard.

How does a wizard get 9d6 damage at 1st?

Wait is it launchbolt, psionic shot, and mortal bane?

[Cosi]

Luckily, I wasn't trying to compete with the wizard.

WTF were you trying to compete with? You posted a 1st level trick build, Beheld posted another.

How does a wizard get 9d6 damage at 1st?

I assume Heighten Spell/Extra Slot loops.

[Beheld]

Luckily, I wasn't trying to compete with the wizard.

You emphatically were. He claimed that no tier 1 caster can keep up with warlocks at level 1, I pointed out that Wizards totally outdo warlocks starting at level 1, you quoted me saying that and responded by posting silly power now for suck later level 1 build for warlocks.

In the context of the conversation, that can't possibly be anything else but a claim that warlocks keep up with Tier 1 casters.

How does a wizard get 9d6 damage at 1st?

Illumian Heighten + Extra Slot + Reserve Feat. You can have a 9th level slot at level 1, and put some heightened burning hands in it, and do 9d6 with your fire attack, or you can do the same thing with Summon Monster 1 and just summon a CR 5 creature.

Silly level 1 builds are always silly, but even if you are going to measure, the warlock is still pretty damn pathetic at it.

[nedz]

If you're going for silly TO builds then Warlock 1 can, theoretically, do 57,600d6 damage per day.

[Nifft]

Why are people trying to turn this into a silly TO thread?

TO has no relation to this topic.

Also, it's silly.

[Beheld]

SGT is strange for a Warlock because you build differently if you're expecting to be a solo character. I normally build Warlocks for support and utility and count on the other party members to provide the muscle. If I were going solo, though, I'd put a lot more emphasis on avoiding fights entirely, because a battlefield controller and backup/supplemental damage-dealer is not going to fare well on his own in combat. Either that or Charm people left and right until you're not solo anymore, which is also viable.

Why are you saying that Warlock is Tier 0 because it's your favorite class?

[Lans]

You emphatically were. He claimed that no tier 1 caster can keep up with warlocks at level 1, I pointed out that Wizards totally outdo warlocks starting at level 1, you quoted me saying that and responded by posting silly power now for suck later level 1 build for warlocks.

In the context of the conversation, that can't possibly be anything else but a claim that warlocks keep up with Tier 1 casters.

I was responding to you saying that the warlocks damage was garbage. I should of narrowed the quote box down.

Illumian Heighten + Extra Slot + Reserve Feat. You can have a 9th level slot at level 1, and put some heightened burning hands in it, and do 9d6 with your fire attack, or you can do the same thing with Summon Monster 1 and just summon a CR 5 creature.

z Cool

Silly level 1 builds are always silly, but even if you are going to measure, the warlock is still pretty damn pathetic at it.

I was mostly using it as a starting point to see how it could perform in a same game test with using pact infernus to get empower and maximize spell-like abilities at level 5. But that was mostly idle musing than anything

WTF were you trying to compete with? You posted a 1st level trick build, Beheld posted another.

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SGT challenges